You really need to take a step back from your faction allegiance, it doesn't allow you to see things clearly.

You're in no position to judge though.

I'm on the internet, there is no better position to judge, and as someone who had to get rather familiar with the idiocy that fat Decimators are the idea that rebels were oh so opressive to the empire during the dark times is laughable. What really was the case was that building outside the fat turret archetype was doomed to fail unless you were brobots and didn't get matched up with too many Fels. Both YTs and Decimators supressed fun lists at the time, all factions had to suffer under that. Singeling out a faction that particularily suffered or opressed demonstrates missing a point and a lack of distance in my opinion.

Two, I flew them in a tournament yesterday and went 3-1 (missing the cut by 50 MoV). These things are AWESOME! They're like discount Defenders. You fly them differently and they are totally worth it. Backdraft is a monster.

Anyone that thinks these are flying coffins is VERY mistaken.

Two, I flew them in a tournament yesterday and went 3-1 (missing the cut by 50 MoV). These things are AWESOME! They're like discount Defenders. You fly them differently and they are totally worth it. Backdraft is a monster.

Anyone that thinks these are flying coffins is VERY mistaken.

What was your list, if you don't mind my asking?

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing/products/special-forces-tie-expansion-pack/

According to FFG's product page its just Special Forces TIE.

And according to its own very pilot card its TIE/SF FIGHTER

So does this mean "Youngsters" ability will work with a SF?

Yes, but unless you want to triple-down on Quickdraw with Rage plus another EPT there is no reason to bring Youngster. His best EPT is still Crackshot.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing/products/special-forces-tie-expansion-pack/

According to FFG's product page its just Special Forces TIE.

And according to its own very pilot card its TIE/SF FIGHTER

So does this mean "Youngsters" ability will work with a SF?

Yes, but unless you want to triple-down on Quickdraw with Rage plus another EPT there is no reason to bring Youngster. His best EPT is still Crackshot.

Might be interesting for adaptability so you can chose to move and smoke Soontir before he gets tokens.

Two, I flew them in a tournament yesterday and went 3-1 (missing the cut by 50 MoV). These things are AWESOME! They're like discount Defenders. You fly them differently and they are totally worth it. Backdraft is a monster.

Anyone that thinks these are flying coffins is VERY mistaken.

What was your list, if you don't mind my asking?

Is This How You /SF? (99/100)

=============================

TIE/SF Fighter: "Backdraft" (27 + 5)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Accuracy Corrector (3)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/SF Fighter: "Quickdraw" (29 + 4)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Fire Control System (2)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE Defender: Colonel Vessery (35)

+ Adaptability (0)

+ TIE/x7 (-2)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

You might think AC and Backdraft is stupid. You would be dead wrong. It means I roll at least 2 hits, most likely it was 1h1c or more (like 2h1cl). It's not about adding damage but consistently throwing max damage while not needing offensive actions.

Also, Quickdraw's ability is a nice bonus, trying to force it is a mistake. I let my opponent make those choices.

I thought AC meant you couldn't add on the crit from backdraft?

I thought AC meant you couldn't add on the crit from backdraft?

It does, but I think he's saying that if he doesn't get at least one it on the attack roll he can AC for a better shot. It seems like very minor use.

You really need to take a step back from your faction allegiance, it doesn't allow you to see things clearly.

You're in no position to judge though.

I'm on the internet, there is no better position to judge, and as someone who had to get rather familiar with the idiocy that fat Decimators are the idea that rebels were oh so opressive to the empire during the dark times is laughable. What really was the case was that building outside the fat turret archetype was doomed to fail unless you were brobots and didn't get matched up with too many Fels. Both YTs and Decimators supressed fun lists at the time, all factions had to suffer under that. Singeling out a faction that particularily suffered or opressed demonstrates missing a point and a lack of distance in my opinion.

Great, then you won't mind me debunking your claim then.

All factions?

Scum didn't enter the game until August 15, 2014, Engine, Luke, MF Title Han existed since February 28, 2013 and two Fat Han builds has taken 2 out of 4 World Championships (and was all over the top cuts at Regional and National events 2014-2015). That is coincidentally also the longest reign of any broken ship/combo.

I am not singling out a faction, I am singling out players that cry about Rebels being left behind when a) they haven't and b) they had a long history of dominating top tier events.

Next!

Fat Han only won a single WC, just an FYI.

Two, I flew them in a tournament yesterday and went 3-1 (missing the cut by 50 MoV). These things are AWESOME! They're like discount Defenders. You fly them differently and they are totally worth it. Backdraft is a monster.

Anyone that thinks these are flying coffins is VERY mistaken.

What was your list, if you don't mind my asking?

Is This How You /SF? (99/100)

=============================

TIE/SF Fighter: "Backdraft" (27 + 5)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Accuracy Corrector (3)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/SF Fighter: "Quickdraw" (29 + 4)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Fire Control System (2)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE Defender: Colonel Vessery (35)

+ Adaptability (0)

+ TIE/x7 (-2)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

You might think AC and Backdraft is stupid. You would be dead wrong. It means I roll at least 2 hits, most likely it was 1h1c or more (like 2h1cl). It's not about adding damage but consistently throwing max damage while not needing offensive actions.

Also, Quickdraw's ability is a nice bonus, trying to force it is a mistake. I let my opponent make those choices.

So you're taking a ship with poor defence and making it TL instead of focusing and really hoping the other guy doesn't take advantage and kill a third of your list on the first round of shooting.

Two, I flew them in a tournament yesterday and went 3-1 (missing the cut by 50 MoV). These things are AWESOME! They're like discount Defenders. You fly them differently and they are totally worth it. Backdraft is a monster.

Anyone that thinks these are flying coffins is VERY mistaken.

What was your list, if you don't mind my asking?

Is This How You /SF? (99/100)

=============================

TIE/SF Fighter: "Backdraft" (27 + 5)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Accuracy Corrector (3)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/SF Fighter: "Quickdraw" (29 + 4)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Fire Control System (2)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE Defender: Colonel Vessery (35)

+ Adaptability (0)

+ TIE/x7 (-2)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

You might think AC and Backdraft is stupid. You would be dead wrong. It means I roll at least 2 hits, most likely it was 1h1c or more (like 2h1cl). It's not about adding damage but consistently throwing max damage while not needing offensive actions.

Also, Quickdraw's ability is a nice bonus, trying to force it is a mistake. I let my opponent make those choices.

If it's working for you, I think that's great. I personally would probably drop AC for FCS for the extra point for Vess as it's more my playstyle and I think it helps him get his lock.

Two, I flew them in a tournament yesterday and went 3-1 (missing the cut by 50 MoV). These things are AWESOME! They're like discount Defenders. You fly them differently and they are totally worth it. Backdraft is a monster.

Anyone that thinks these are flying coffins is VERY mistaken.

What was your list, if you don't mind my asking?

Is This How You /SF? (99/100)

=============================

TIE/SF Fighter: "Backdraft" (27 + 5)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Accuracy Corrector (3)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/SF Fighter: "Quickdraw" (29 + 4)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Fire Control System (2)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE Defender: Colonel Vessery (35)

+ Adaptability (0)

+ TIE/x7 (-2)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

You might think AC and Backdraft is stupid. You would be dead wrong. It means I roll at least 2 hits, most likely it was 1h1c or more (like 2h1cl). It's not about adding damage but consistently throwing max damage while not needing offensive actions.

Also, Quickdraw's ability is a nice bonus, trying to force it is a mistake. I let my opponent make those choices.

So you're taking a ship with poor defence and making it TL instead of focusing and really hoping the other guy doesn't take advantage and kill a third of your list on the first round of shooting.

Wat?? Backdraft never takes the TL because that would be pointless, he always repositions with BR or focuses. Quickdraw does the same thing.

You clearly don't like the ship so convincing you will also be pointless. The defense works just fine when you control engagements and ranges.

I took an SF for the first time today, and let me tell you that I found Quickdraw to be amazing. In our gaming group I usually go home swinging below .500 but that little ship almost had me running 3-0 today. Here was my list:

Quickdraw w/ Draw their Fire & Special Ops Training - 30pts

Omega Leader w/ Juke & Comm Relay - 26pts

Omega Ace w/ Push the Limits - 23pts

Omicron Group Pilot - 21pts

I flew the 4 as a block with the Shuttle on the outside near the table edge. Ace and Leader were besides the shuttle to the front and Quickdraw split the difference behind. In the first two matches I played, we started off jousting. Quickdraw with Draw their Fire acts almost like a cheaper Dengar - able to make a return strike no matter who gets shot. Throw that in with Leader's Juke, Ace's 2 Crits and the Lamda throwing 3 dice, and it's a pretty mean opening salvo.

I played against 2 lists - Dengaroo & Triple Defenders (2 tractor beams + 1 Ion). I won pretty handily in both games and then lost the rematch against the defenders due to some lousy flying. I had an untouched Lamda and Ace against a Defender with all 3 shields gone. It was interesting to see how in each game they went after a different TIE but there's enough teeth in each ship that it really didn't make a difference who went down first.

I took an SF for the first time today, and let me tell you that I found Quickdraw to be amazing. In our gaming group I usually go home swinging below .500 but that little ship almost had me running 3-0 today. Here was my list:

Quickdraw w/ Draw their Fire & Special Ops Training - 30pts

Omega Leader w/ Juke & Comm Relay - 26pts

Omega Ace w/ Push the Limits - 23pts

Omicron Group Pilot - 21pts

I flew the 4 as a block with the Shuttle on the outside near the table edge. Ace and Leader were besides the shuttle to the front and Quickdraw split the difference behind. In the first two matches I played, we started off jousting. Quickdraw with Draw their Fire acts almost like a cheaper Dengar - able to make a return strike no matter who gets shot. Throw that in with Leader's Juke, Ace's 2 Crits and the Lamda throwing 3 dice, and it's a pretty mean opening salvo.

I played against 2 lists - Dengaroo & Triple Defenders (2 tractor beams + 1 Ion). I won pretty handily in both games and then lost the rematch against the defenders due to some lousy flying. I had an untouched Lamda and Ace against a Defender with all 3 shields gone. It was interesting to see how in each game they went after a different TIE but there's enough teeth in each ship that it really didn't make a difference who went down first.

Interesting with "Draw Their Fire" on quickdraw :-)

Two, I flew them in a tournament yesterday and went 3-1 (missing the cut by 50 MoV). These things are AWESOME! They're like discount Defenders. You fly them differently and they are totally worth it. Backdraft is a monster.

Anyone that thinks these are flying coffins is VERY mistaken.

What was your list, if you don't mind my asking?

Is This How You /SF? (99/100)

=============================

TIE/SF Fighter: "Backdraft" (27 + 5)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Accuracy Corrector (3)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/SF Fighter: "Quickdraw" (29 + 4)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Fire Control System (2)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE Defender: Colonel Vessery (35)

+ Adaptability (0)

+ TIE/x7 (-2)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

You might think AC and Backdraft is stupid. You would be dead wrong. It means I roll at least 2 hits, most likely it was 1h1c or more (like 2h1cl). It's not about adding damage but consistently throwing max damage while not needing offensive actions.

Also, Quickdraw's ability is a nice bonus, trying to force it is a mistake. I let my opponent make those choices.

So you're taking a ship with poor defence and making it TL instead of focusing and really hoping the other guy doesn't take advantage and kill a third of your list on the first round of shooting.

Wat?? Backdraft never takes the TL because that would be pointless, he always repositions with BR or focuses. Quickdraw does the same thing.

You clearly don't like the ship so convincing you will also be pointless. The defense works just fine when you control engagements and ranges.

Dont think he was disliking your list or the ship, rather that by changing AC for FCS you automatically have 2 targets painted with target locks for Wessery to use, you should still take the focus/barelroll action :-)

Exactly if you don't TL with one sf then vessery doesn't get his ability, and you can't guarantee you won't have to change the TL at some point.

And a sf with no focus has no real defence and will go down fast.

That exactly why I was going to start running AC on the /sf; I have that focus solely for defence. Sure, the lock is great, but it's single target on a ship that can be abused for firing at multiple targets. I've had really good experience with mass AC in the past, and it's calling my name again with the /sf for that reason.

I was looking at a Quickdraw with Rage/Baffle/Mk2 Engines, Backdraft with VI/AC, and Rex with Juke/x7. I've yet to try it, but it sounds decent on paper.

I thought AC meant you couldn't add on the crit from backdraft?

It does, but I think he's saying that if he doesn't get at least one it on the attack roll he can AC for a better shot. It seems like very minor use.

Gotya, seems like a bit of a waste of points!

Personally because of their squishyness I wouldn't want to overload my tie/sf with too much stuff if it only has a minor effect.

In general, I tend to distrust early "I've tried the ship today and it's awesome!" comments.

TIE Punishers were also awesome...

Scyks were incredible too...

Starvipers were totally amazing...

Defenders were elite ships at their release...

Yeah right...

Two, I flew them in a tournament yesterday and went 3-1 (missing the cut by 50 MoV). These things are AWESOME! They're like discount Defenders. You fly them differently and they are totally worth it. Backdraft is a monster.

Anyone that thinks these are flying coffins is VERY mistaken.

What was your list, if you don't mind my asking?

Is This How You /SF? (99/100)

=============================

TIE/SF Fighter: "Backdraft" (27 + 5)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Accuracy Corrector (3)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/SF Fighter: "Quickdraw" (29 + 4)

+ Veteran Instincts (1)

+ Fire Control System (2)

+ Special Ops Training (0)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE Defender: Colonel Vessery (35)

+ Adaptability (0)

+ TIE/x7 (-2)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

You might think AC and Backdraft is stupid. You would be dead wrong. It means I roll at least 2 hits, most likely it was 1h1c or more (like 2h1cl). It's not about adding damage but consistently throwing max damage while not needing offensive actions.

Also, Quickdraw's ability is a nice bonus, trying to force it is a mistake. I let my opponent make those choices.

You really need to take a step back from your faction allegiance, it doesn't allow you to see things clearly.

You're in no position to judge though.

I'm on the internet, there is no better position to judge, and as someone who had to get rather familiar with the idiocy that fat Decimators are the idea that rebels were oh so opressive to the empire during the dark times is laughable. What really was the case was that building outside the fat turret archetype was doomed to fail unless you were brobots and didn't get matched up with too many Fels. Both YTs and Decimators supressed fun lists at the time, all factions had to suffer under that. Singeling out a faction that particularily suffered or opressed demonstrates missing a point and a lack of distance in my opinion.

Great, then you won't mind me debunking your claim then.

All factions?

Scum didn't enter the game until August 15, 2014, Engine, Luke, MF Title Han existed since February 28, 2013 and two Fat Han builds has taken 2 out of 4 World Championships (and was all over the top cuts at Regional and National events 2014-2015). That is coincidentally also the longest reign of any broken ship/combo.

I am not singling out a faction, I am singling out players that cry about Rebels being left behind when a) they haven't and b) they had a long history of dominating top tier events.

Next!

Fat Han became only then the broken problem he was when 3PO gave him the ability to cancel 2 points of damage guaranteed. Before that a TIE swarm could easily take him on, after that it had a drastic problem of effectively being down two ships (one needs to block so Han doesn't escape, one can't do damage).

You want to talk about facts, okay, it is a fact that rebels have vanished with the release of wave 8 because they just can't build without being vulnerable to either Scouts or Palp Aces. That is not healthy for the game and entirely independant of what used to be meta 4 waves back. Its also not whining, but rather based on tournament outcomes and entries. It is this "they were bad then, so let them suffer now" attitude that atributes to your lack of distance. I have no stake in rebels being strong as I play all factions. The goal should always be that you can build a few competetive lists with each faction.

Rebels aren't suddenly all old TIE Advanceds for sure, Wes Janson offers great perspectives since he has both the PS to take on Aces and an easy to trigger ability that dampens Torpscouts. They really only need a minor nudge, something that prevents taking them competetively from being such a huge gamble like it is now.

Edit: Oh, and what I mean by all factions is that Rebels, too, lost a plethora of fun and viable squadrons. Used to love XXBB or any other list with Advanced Sensors B-Wings? Well tough luck, falls apart too fast between Phantoms and Fat Turrets, you can maybe run BBBBZ and hope to run down the clock, but in reality thats only viable in 60 minute torunaments. The long history of dominating top tier events is also pretty questionable, since from waves 1-3 the TIE swarm was the list to beat. Sure, XXBB and Fat Han won, but they were up against imperial lists in the final. There isn't a huge difference between winning and getting second place, both players need to endure half an eternity of variance to get there. top 16-32, aka the area that really matters, tended to be relatively balanced to at worst a 5% difference through the majority of major events.

Why no one is thinking PTL+Baffle or Rage+Baffle on Quickdraw? Sounds great to me, shooting in the activation phase when I want.

Rage/Baffle was one of the first to be considered. It works fine. People are just trying more options.

Why no one is thinking PTL+Baffle or Rage+Baffle on Quickdraw? Sounds great to me, shooting in the activation phase when I want.

Because against palp defenders and scouts it's not that great, it's a one trick pony useful only against fel.