I've been extremely tired of the whinging of people saying that Poe says the ship really moves so the SF therefore should have the best dial in the game.

He says that line the MOMENT he leaves the hangar. He hasn't experienced any actual flight characteristics except for the acceleration.

That and watching them fly in the other parts of the film are all we have to go on. I don't think FFG captured it with the dial they gave us. To me it seems like they, as is their normal practice, erred on the side of caution when introducing a new feature (small base rear arcs) instead of trying to design the ship to adhere as closely as possible to the film.

There are other instances where combat training encourages soldiers to exercise restraint on their equipment in order to actually be more effective. Take the US Army for example. The M16 was easily capable of firing fully automatic, but soldiers since the Vietnam War have been trained to only fire in 3 round bursts. It allows them to retain control and accuracy with the rifle and keeps there magazines from emptying to quickly.

I've been extremely tired of people using specious historical comparisons when they don't know what they're talking about. The 3-round burst feature was introduced on the M16A2 rifle for ammunition considerations. There was no tactical purpose for the change. The infantry center did not teach any techniques or procedures involving 3-round burst apart from ensuring that it worked in a functions check after reassembling the rifle. There has never been a 3-round burst component of marksmanship training. The Army went back to fully automatic and the standard weapon for infantry is now the M4A1 carbine. I personally used 3-round burst one time. It was during a night live fire training exercise and I had a significant jam. I used burst to consume my remaining ammunition before the exercise ended. "No brass, no ammo, Sergeant!"

Why because it's Special Forces?

Special Forces are not super line fighters. That would be a shock fighter or assault fighter.

Special Forces do the jobs that regular fighters cannot.

They do recon, advance missions, subterfuge and the like.

A heavy two seater with additional guns covering its own blind spots enables the ship to do more than a fighter.

The Special Forces are not interceptors. They have a more heavily armed and shielded vessel with enhanced communications, hyper drive, and energy storage to make long trips. It is not designed to be a stripped down baseline fighter so it doesn't get treated as such.

Agreed.

Special Forces would make me think theyre meant to do gorilla tactics. Honestly im surprised they didnt give this thing a cloak since its clearly designed to operate alone or in pairs for special missions and not normal battles.

Still waiting on another ship with cloak that DOESNT have access to Adv Cloaking or via illicit

I've been extremely tired of the whinging of people saying that Poe says the ship really moves so the SF therefore should have the best dial in the game.

He says that line the MOMENT he leaves the hangar. He hasn't experienced any actual flight characteristics except for the acceleration.

That and watching them fly in the other parts of the film are all we have to go on. I don't think FFG captured it with the dial they gave us. To me it seems like they, as is their normal practice, erred on the side of caution when introducing a new feature (small base rear arcs) instead of trying to design the ship to adhere as closely as possible to the film.

There are other instances where combat training encourages soldiers to exercise restraint on their equipment in order to actually be more effective. Take the US Army for example. The M16 was easily capable of firing fully automatic, but soldiers since the Vietnam War have been trained to only fire in 3 round bursts. It allows them to retain control and accuracy with the rifle and keeps there magazines from emptying to quickly.

I've been extremely tired of people using specious historical comparisons when they don't know what they're talking about. The 3-round burst feature was introduced on the M16A2 rifle for ammunition considerations. There was no tactical purpose for the change. The infantry center did not teach any techniques or procedures involving 3-round burst apart from ensuring that it worked in a functions check after reassembling the rifle. There has never been a 3-round burst component of marksmanship training. The Army went back to fully automatic and the standard weapon for infantry is now the M4A1 carbine. I personally used 3-round burst one time. It was during a night live fire training exercise and I had a significant jam. I used burst to consume my remaining ammunition before the exercise ended. "No brass, no ammo, Sergeant!"

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/rifles/the-rise-fall-and-rise-of-the-m14/

The development and introduction of the M16 replacing the M14 had two big driving forces. The size and wood construction of the M14 were not very good for fighting in the jungle. And the M14 was uncontrollable on full auto. The M16 had the burst fire selector for the times rapid fire was needed but semi auto otherwise.

You were proving my point though. You were trained to exercise restraint while using your equipment. That you should not use rapid fire unless necessary.

When used with no training assault rifles are not used the same way. Just like in the case of The Force Awakens.

Poe was trained as a Fighter pilot for the Resistance. He did not undergo the training that the First Order Special Forces pilots did. He thought like a pilot under control of everything while he was used to starfighters designed to function entirely independently.

TIE's are designed to be flown as teams where the pilot must take his gunner under consideration. He can't just turn on a dime or the gunner trying to track his target may shoot out their own wings.

The Special Forces pilots are taught how to maximize the use of the TIE and it's limitations while Poe is just trying to do what he can to escape.

The only things we have to go by in regards to how the FO TIEs function are his line and the fight scenes as you say. He hadn't experienced flight time by the time he used that line so therefore there are only two possible things we can infer.

1. It accelerates very well. But as X Wing games take place while already in flight this is makes this meaningless.

2. The TIE has good capabilities when pushed to the limit. During combat though these limits are not used whether for logistical or practical reasons.

As a die hard Imperial I was super excited for the TIE/sf. Now that its out and available I'm going to hurry up and wait for a sale, and then maybe pick up one.

This has been the most disappointing TIE since the Defender in wave 4. There is nothing TIE fighter about this ship, and that is very disappointing. I wanted a TIE Fighter that could shoot backwards, what I got was an X-Wing that could shoot backwards.

Xwings can't roll without wasting the IA slot

They also can't sloop or take systems/tech

The SF is its own thing

Another ship shaped like an H? I'll get 0, and wait for an Assault Gunboat. Because it's cool and isn't shaped like an H.

So even in a posts specifically about TIE S/F we still get a post about the Gunboat. Maybe we should see how much it costs to have it never released.

I just don't get why FFG insists on releasing more TIE Fighter variants, when there's a bunch of other cool TIE and non-TIE ships. How many H-shaped variants and paint jobs do we need?

We need all the H. The Empire was founded on a surplus of H. In fact, it's worth noting that Imperial doctrine disavows the existence of other letters, and the mere mention of them can incur harsh penalties up to and including the destruction of the perpetrator's home planet.

H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H

H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H

H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H

H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H

(we have a green wall of pew pew, your argument is invalid)

Xwings can't roll without wasting the IA slot

They also can't sloop or take systems/tech

The SF is its own thing

The T-70 can boost (which is better than roll), troll, and take tech and astros.

The sf may be a perfectly balanced and competitive ship (though I don't think it is good enough for that), but it doesn't feel like a TIE Fighter and that's what really bothers me. It's thematically broken for me. I'll end up owning one, but I probably would have ended up with four if it flew like a TIE Fighter.

Man, all the DOA of the TIE/sf is making me desire even more to play with it.

The Empire doesn't need defeatists.

We Arnt defeatist we have the defender tearing apart anything in its path, empire is doing fine despite the fact we keep getting duds like the punisher.

But this is the sf it's supposed to really move yet it's a slug, the dial doesn't reflect the movie version even a little, no mag pulse launcher and crap defence it's perfectly reasonable to be disappointed with this poormans T-70.

I'll ask again about the dial. What were you hoping for? It's only missing a 5 straight, and yes it has two hard reds. Did you want more green? Were you expecting an interceptor like dial?

Given its the special forces ship I expected it to be at least on par with the fo.

I think that was expecting a bit much given that it's upgraded systems include space for a second crew member, a rear gun, missiles, and I would assume that their added shields require further additions, all this on the same chassis.

Seriously everybody, buy at least 1 SF. Quickdraw is the best thing since sliced bread as far as I'm concerned. So very very aggressive, perfect for the ship she flies.

Xwings can't roll without wasting the IA slot

They also can't sloop or take systems/tech

The SF is its own thing

The T-70 can boost (which is better than roll)

citation sorely needed

other than the ability to take thrusters, ofc

having run ARCs for a month now, I'm 1000% comfortable saying I'll take b-rolls on aux arcs any day over boost. Creating distance just doesn't help, but rolling around obstacles just infuriates opponents and makes arc-dodging a breeze

Xwings can't roll without wasting the IA slot

They also can't sloop or take systems/tech

The SF is its own thing

The T-70 can boost (which is better than roll)

citation sorely needed

other than the ability to take thrusters, ofc

having run ARCs for a month now, I'm 1000% comfortable saying I'll take b-rolls on aux arcs any day over boost. Creating distance just doesn't help, but rolling around obstacles just infuriates opponents and makes arc-dodging a breeze

Autothrusters alone make boost the superior movement option. Discounting them, the ability to swing two firing arcs around means that you are very hard to dodge. Being able to change your facing is a huge deal, both for target acquisition and for performing tighter maneuvers. Plus, adding roll to a ship is cheap, adding boost is not.

Roll might be better on low PS ships as a blocking maneuver, as it is a bit more flexible in where you end up, but boost is still super strong.

I will also take barrel rolling any day. When I've used Boost I've always been disappointed that I felt it wouldn't get line of sight on my target or out of my opponents arc. Because of its forward momentum the change of angle just isn't enough without being coupled with a barrel roll.

Even on its own my TIEs barrel roll a lot. Its great for getting around asteroids or potential undesired bumping. It is great for getting in or out of arcs. Boosting closes the distance but give me the positioning benefits of barrel rolls anyday.

Another ship shaped like an H? I'll get 0, and wait for an Assault Gunboat. Because it's cool and isn't shaped like an H.

So even in a posts specifically about TIE S/F we still get a post about the Gunboat. Maybe we should see how much it costs to have it never released.

I just don't get why FFG insists on releasing more TIE Fighter variants, when there's a bunch of other cool TIE and non-TIE ships. How many H-shaped variants and paint jobs do we need?

We need all the H. The Empire was founded on a surplus of H. In fact, it's worth noting that Imperial doctrine disavows the existence of other letters, and the mere mention of them can incur harsh penalties up to and including the destruction of the perpetrator's home planet.

H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H

H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H

H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H

H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H

(we have a green wall of pew pew, your argument is invalid)

Really, I thought it was because Bow TIES are cool?

Xwings can't roll without wasting the IA slot

They also can't sloop or take systems/tech

The SF is its own thing

The T-70 can boost (which is better than roll), troll, and take tech and astros.

The sf may be a perfectly balanced and competitive ship (though I don't think it is good enough for that), but it doesn't feel like a TIE Fighter and that's what really bothers me. It's thematically broken for me. I'll end up owning one, but I probably would have ended up with four if it flew like a TIE Fighter.

Is it the Evade action? Are TIE Bombers not TIEs?

Is it a 2 dice Primary attack? Are Interceptors, Defenders, and Phantoms not TIEs?

Is it a lack of 5 forward? Because you again question the Bomber and Phantom.

Is it a lack of 1 Hard turn? Because the TIE Advanced and Bomber don't have those but the SF does even if it's red.

Is it a barrel roll? Because the TIE SF has that but the Defender doesn't.

The TIE SF lacks standard TIE characteristics that is true. But it has ones that other TIEs are lacking. The TIE Advanced feels and plays much more like an X Wing than the Special Forces TIE does yet you have cast judgement on this one.

The lack of Evade is sad and 2 agility but I'll take my barrel rolling double tapping aux arc with Sensor Clusters any day.

Edit: I apologize. I was wrong in saying the Defenders have Boost instead of Barrel Roll. I could have sworn I remembered hearing they were given boost because they were considered to rely so much on speed. But they don't have the Evade action. So are all Defenders without the X7 title not considered TIEs? I know the competitive scene considers the X7 the only version to exist but I'd still think it's a TIE even though its only similarity with others is 3 agility and Barrel Roll.

TIE/sf vs X-wing with VT - same cost, 1 more shield (no Integrated Astro) and you get both System and Tech slots. With a zero points System int he pack.

Red 3 hards get offset byt he fact that you can Sloop either side and got access to hard 1s. Plus for 1 point, you can turn additional 4 maneuvers green.

Oh, and you get to fire behind you, too (ignoring the potential double-attack, as it's quite situational and comes at a cost).

I honestly can't see what's wrong with any of that!

With HotR you'll get Primed Thrusters which will enable you to BR while stressed, for the cost of 1 (one!) point.

That itself is just pure gold. Backdraft with VI will be able to hard 1 and BR to position. And I'm loving Backdraft.

It's basically got Vader with ATC shooting out of the back, only without restriction to hold on to that TL. And gets to put FCS on for perpetual TLs, too. What the hell?

I'm under impression that Imperials are just too spoiled by their godly dice and anything that doesn't get to roll 3+ with a guaranteed success and/or free tokens is DOA to them.

You have no idea what kind of **** Rebels have to put up with. You get a ship superior to the core Rebel fighters, with self-contained abilities on uniques, none of that gotta-hold-close-to-your-buddies "synergy" nonsense, and still moan. Really? With PS 9 available for both named pilots, they're still viable arc-dodgers, too. You just have better life expectancy against stuff that ignores/cancells defense.

You have no idea what kind of **** Rebels have to put up with.

Right, it would appear that you have no idea what kind of utter **** Imperials had to put up with during the reign of Fat Han/Dash.

That is, pure ****, throughout 6 waves & 2 Expansion packs.

From February 28, 2013 to October 1st, 2015.

So yeah- no, I really don't feel sorry for Rebel players right now; though I would vastly prefer better balance in the game overall. The TIE/sf included, obviously.

You're absolutely right, Keffisch.

I've only joined at around K-wings' release and was utterly destroyed with how PWT ships got pretty much eliminated from the game by Autothrusters.

Which doesn't change the fact that Rebel arsenal is quite far behind as we stand now, with little hope to be seen, as we just got yet another 1 Agi ship with dubious pilot abilities, neither giving anything in the action-efficiency area and half of them being bound to those abominable "synergies" .

I'm almost surprised that ARCs got EPT slots. You know, there is this one astro that's supposedly making Rebel Ys "ok"...

But putting all that aside, I don't think TIE/sf is even remotely as disappointing as people say.

It's a solid T-70 alike with wider upgrade choice and BR instead of Boost. At one point cheaper, with substantially less expensive PS 7&9 Aces, that also happen to both have very strong abilities.

Which doesn't change the fact that Rebel arsenal is quite far behind as we stand now, with little hope to be seen, as we just got yet another 1 Agi ship with dubious pilot abilities, neither giving anything in the action-efficiency area and half of them being bound to those abominable "synergies"

honestly, this view of things is hilariously overblown

there is one thing rebels can't hash it against, and that's torp scouts

ARCs here have proven repeatedly to be able to stand against imperial aces and x7s thanks to combination stress aux arc and the frustrating 1v1 durability of PTL r2-d2 norra

once you accept the glory of Biggs, only torpscouts stand in the way between you and tournament victories

hell, the K itself also still ruins imperials once you figure out how 6 health isn't that much better than 4 v sabine bombs

don't like Biggs? fly the Vcx, I guess

while the many classic rebels (yt-1300, X, B, Y; would say the A, but the crackswarm swarms are mean they just require skillful handling) are perceived to not be able to hash it anymore but the new stuff works just fine

do agree about the "Synergy" jank, though. Cool as the ARC is, Shara was saddled with a basically worthless ability

that and ffg's attempts to fix old rebel stuff just doesn't seem to be as successful recently. Hotr stuff is fun, but the T-70 is still...eeeeeeehhhh next to the defender. SoT Targeting Nien is hilarious fun, but dice are just ruinous and the T-70 continues to die super quickly. He does make a great r3-a2 carrier with snapshot, though, so throw him on the pile next to Gold Squadron and Braylen/Thane

You have no idea what kind of **** Rebels have to put up with.

Right, it would appear that you have no idea what kind of utter **** Imperials had to put up with during the reign of Fat Han/Dash.

That is, pure ****, throughout 6 waves & 2 Expansion packs.

From February 28, 2013 to October 1st, 2015.

So yeah- no, I really don't feel sorry for Rebel players right now; though I would vastly prefer better balance in the game overall. The TIE/sf included, obviously.

Yea... I feel for Rebel players who had to fight through armies of Trip Scouts, Dengaroos, and Imperial Aces; but Rebels were an equally bad headache for a long time.

Fat Han, Super Dash, double Regen lists, Miranda, Chewie/Leebo, Stresshog.

I mean... Trip Scouts suck to play against but they're the only thing that quelled the Stresshog. Dash is about to make a very big comeback with BSMT, and the dwindling number of Scout players means the Stresshog will make its way back.

Which doesn't change the fact that Rebel arsenal is quite far behind as we stand now, with little hope to be seen, as we just got yet another 1 Agi ship with dubious pilot abilities, neither giving anything in the action-efficiency area and half of them being bound to those abominable "synergies" .

I'm almost surprised that ARCs got EPT slots. You know, there is this one astro that's supposedly making Rebel Ys "ok"...

The Ghost (Lothal Rebel in particular) is very very good. And HotR is going to make Rebels very good. Black One alone will neuter Omega Ace, FCS, non-deadeye Ordnance, Inquisitor, Vessery, etc etc.

You're right that the traditional Y-wings (and HWKs and A-wings to a degree) are lacking, but there really are a lot of good Rebel ships right now. The aforementioned Dash with BSMT is going to be a serious pain.

Hey fickle, agreed on VCX/Biggs. Actually flown both of them together a couple times lately, and was doing quite good.

Haven't had the opportunity to fly the ARC yet (bought it on day-one here, which was just this Wednesday), so I wouldn't know just yet. But the abilities don't look too hot on paper, either.

But, as it stands, regarding the older Rebel ships, oh man... I've had more fun and success with those few Imps I got (2 named FOs, ATC+EU Vader and a pick-your-flavor named basic TIE from the old Core Set, in various combinations) and they're not even close to be considered top-tier.

Xwings can't roll without wasting the IA slot

They also can't sloop or take systems/tech

The SF is its own thing

The T-70 can boost (which is better than roll), troll, and take tech and astros.

The sf may be a perfectly balanced and competitive ship (though I don't think it is good enough for that), but it doesn't feel like a TIE Fighter and that's what really bothers me. It's thematically broken for me. I'll end up owning one, but I probably would have ended up with four if it flew like a TIE Fighter.

What must a ship have to be considered a TIE in your mind?

Is it the Evade action? Are TIE Bombers not TIEs?

Is it a 2 dice Primary attack? Are Interceptors, Defenders, and Phantoms not TIEs?

Is it a lack of 5 forward? Because you again question the Bomber and Phantom.

Is it a lack of 1 Hard turn? Because the TIE Advanced and Bomber don't have those but the SF does even if it's red.

Is it a barrel roll? Because the TIE SF has that but the Defender doesn't.

The TIE SF lacks standard TIE characteristics that is true. But it has ones that other TIEs are lacking. The TIE Advanced feels and plays much more like an X Wing than the Special Forces TIE does yet you have cast judgement on this one.

The lack of Evade is sad and 2 agility but I'll take my barrel rolling double tapping aux arc with Sensor Clusters any day.

Edit: I apologize. I was wrong in saying the Defenders have Boost instead of Barrel Roll. I could have sworn I remembered hearing they were given boost because they were considered to rely so much on speed. But they don't have the Evade action. So are all Defenders without the X7 title not considered TIEs? I know the competitive scene considers the X7 the only version to exist but I'd still think it's a TIE even though its only similarity with others is 3 agility and Barrel Roll.

TIE Fighter, we're talking about a TIE Fighter. There are now three ships in the game named TIE Fighter, and one of them isn't like the others. If you're going to be called a TIE Fighter, then you should act like a TIE Fighter. Take the TIE/sf, redo the model and call it a TIE Aggressor and all my complaints go away. This is why I'm not complaining about the TIE Advanced, as that is its very own ship, distinct from the Fighter. It makes sense that it handles differently.

Haven't had the opportunity to fly the ARC yet (bought it on day-one here, which was just this Wednesday), so I wouldn't know just yet. But the abilities don't look too hot on paper, either.

oh trust me, they don't look good at all

I literally bought two ARCs because the model was so hypnotically beautiful. Their success was a complete surprise to me too

but o man

PTL Tailgunner R2-d2 Vectored Thrusters Norra

Braylen/Thane with r3-a2 and tactician (gunner on Braylen, torps on thane)

they're just super solid self sufficient ships (Alliteration bonus!), provided you have Biggs weather some shots on the approach

seriously, surprisingly successful against everything but torp scouts. Dengaroo got mulched by tailgunners, palp aces and defenders are sharply countered by r3-a2 and just outlasted by Norra 1v1 etc. Only problem is large ships with 4+ dice

the aux arc makes such a world of difference when you enable it; it just cannot be appreciated off the table

you might also say they get carried by easily the two most powerful astromechs in the game (R3-a2; r2-d2) and you'd be right

I know shara kinda got the short end of the abillity stick for the arc, but I think there will be something to her abillity when the new hotr g8 astro mech rolls in. Weapons engineer plus that astromech plus norra in the same squad.. Profit? Maybe lol.

These small base auxillary arc ships are great on the table.

That's basically the moral of this thread

Small base aux arcs are a lot better on the table than off

Only problem is the SF has a hardeer time than the ARC ito making its aux arc awesome v higher agility