Hello everyone,

I just received my copy of V3 by mail and I've read the rules and cards through and through.

Some of the Action Cards seem very strange to me. They make me wonder... What do they represent exactly ? Why this mechanic ?

I hope somebody can help me understand them and what real action they represent in-game, because on some of these, I'm clueless.

Here they are:

SWORD AND BOARD: What does that mean ? Why does it recharge the Block action ?

GRAPPLE: How can you inflict normal unarmed damage while only grabbing, with one hand only, an opponent ? Very strange. Also, with two hands, no way you can immobilise the opponent ? He can do what he wants, just adds a M die ? That's also very strange, if not ridiculous.

ARROWSTORM vs RAPID FIRE: Two cards that basically describe the same action, but use two different mechanics for it... (Personnally I prefer Arrowstorm. Why does Rapid Fire cease once you miss a target ? You get depressed and stop shooting ?)

BULLSEYE vs SNIPER SHOT: What does the Bullseye card represent, exactly ? A hidden sniper shot ? It's like an augmented Sniper Shot ? Is that it ? It's a weird card. Using Sniper Shot and the Stealth skill as a manoeuvre seems much more sensible to me... After all these millenia, the elves got it wrong...

THUNDERING SHOT: Why does this card cause Fear 2 on two boons ? The weapon makes a lounder sound ? They took out the muffler or what ? Isn't that supposed to be a Trade Gunsmith thing rather than an Action Card ? Really don't get this one...

THREADING THE NEEDLE: Are two M dice enough difficulty for this ? And why isn't there a chance you hit a random target in the engagement ? On a chaos star, for example ? Also, why does the target get a free manoeuvre on a Bane ? Because you distracted your ally uring the action ?

ACCURATE SHOT: It's like a stressed out Aim action from v2. OK. But why is it so stressful, and why the recharge of 6 ? Seems strange to me.

COVERING FIRE: How many shots is a "hail of fire" ? And why do the enemies only suffer fatigue and mysterious "scrambling" condition ? No one can get hit by this hail of nerf arrows or what ?

***** IN THE ARMOUR: A card I really like. But I wonder if it's a bit overpowered if the character has a super high observation and a very bad ballistic skill. Maybe, "use Observation or Ballistic skill, whichever is lower" would be better ? Makes the shot harder, but the payoff is worth it.

KNOCKBACK SHOT: How is it possible that a shot makes someone back off 20 yards ? Close to medium seems... overpowered ? Also, where do you hit to get that effect ? I feel this card would be better used in Dark Heresy V2...

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on details here. I just have a problem visualizing these cards, and thus will have problems explaining them to my players, let alone describe their effects in-game !

A bit of creative help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all.

Well, Sword and Board seems pretty clear. You block with your shield. Sword and Board means you're skilled fighting with sword and shield (board is slang for shield) so you get your shielf back into place faster to block again when using it.

Rob

OK. But why does this action have a recharge of 3 ?

The way you describe it, it would be a Push Back kind of card, you trade in some offensive punch to get some defense ready faster.

One round you Melee attack and Block, the next you Sword and Board and hope to be able to Block again, right ?

Remember your stances!
If you want to be able to use the shield at a consistent and reliable pace, out yourself in conservative stance. Block has a recharge of two, and sword & Board (when you go conservative) also has a recharge of two. Against a single opponent, this allows you to use your shield two out of every round with only a signle boon.

Round 1
Player attacks
Enemy attacks, player blocks
Player removes 1st recharge token from block

Round 2
Player attacks with sword and board, remove a 2nd recharge token from block
Enemy attacks, player blocks
Player removes 1st recharge token from block and Sword & Board

Round 3
Player attacks
Enemy attacks (no block active)
Player removes 2nd recharge token from block and Sword & Board

Round 4 (repeat round1)

If you have allies to swap inative with, you can become even more effecient.

The reckless side of the card represents a more urgent attempt to recover. You can not use it as often, but,w hen you do, you can get the shield back that round, which makes it more useful for staving off mutliple opponents in the short term.

Sounds like how the card should function to me. What do you think is wrong about it?

As for something like knock back shot, I wouldn't think of it as a an attack that sends someone flying back 10 yards (well, maybe if it was a snotling...). Instead, I would describe it is a power blast which staggers the enemy, sending them stumbling away.

Imagine the scene. Odawacer, a duelist from Riekland, nervously eyes the tree line. For the better part of the last hour, he has seen red eyes glittering in the darkness, starring hungrily at he companions as the huddled around their meager fire. Without warning, a roar comes from the darkness, and beast men pour out of the forest, led by a Gor half again as tall as any man. Screams come from the camp as inexperience guards fumble for their weapons. Odawcer draws a pistol bracing it across his arm and taking aim at the War Gor that has charged out ahead of the pack. He measures the shot… braces his legs… takes aim… and waits.

As the Gor closes it lifts a hue, gnarled tree branch high into the air, and hurtles forward to the defenseless man. Then, a thunderclap rings out. Odawacer has waited until the last possible minute, and then fires the pistol directly into the face of the oncoming beast. The WarGor stumble back, his right hand clutching the bloody mess of flesh that had once been his jaw. The other beast mean surge past him, leaving their leader to recover from the shock and pain of his wounds

[Mechanically, the knockback shot pushes him back a range category, described as reeling and stumbling. With a second success (Odawacer is clearly the cautious sort) the beastman also lost his free move on the upcoming turn, so he is unable to reach the combat and engage. ]

Bohemond said:

Isn't it at the end of your turn you remove a recharge token (p.57), so if the enemy attacks 2nd, you block, you don't remove on that round. But right, generally.

Build a Resilience trained character with Board and Sword, Beat Back and Counterblow. Hoo hah.

Round 1, if PC first, then regular attack, then when attacked use Block for 2 misfortune dice into foe's pool (2 recharge token). If foe misses, get a free Counterblow (4 tokens)

Round 2, PC acts again, use Sword and Board (recharge 2), decent shot of removing 1 of those recharge tokens, and end of turn remove one and Counterblow down to 3 tokens, decent chance of Block being reactived (if not fall back on Parry, 2 tokens). If Block reactivated, it ends up with 2 tokens.

Round 3, Beat Back (recharge 4), with a Fortune die because resilience trained, if lucky remove recharge token from 1 card (maybe for your buddies too), Block to 1 token, then end of turn Block to 0 tokens and ready to help again this round.

Round 4, Sword and Board useable again to help speed Block back into action.

Narratively, you're fighting with sword and shield, striking when your shield occupies a foe, skilled at getting shield back into place faster, and at driving foe back away from your friends while you follow and keep up pressure. Mechanically, unless multiple foes targeting you, you are much less likely to be without an active defence

The weird part about COVERING FIRE is NPCs/Monsters do not suffer fatigue. I assume this should read "wound" , on the reckless side of the card.

I struggled with the card, it is "Harassment and interdiction fire" It is not so much firing to hit a target as to lower their effectiveness/pin them down/ lower the enemies morale.

Also if you look it athe "conservative" side, using in in this stance is more effective. and if the player rolls well enough he might actually plug some one. But it's big effect is it keeps enemies "hunkered down" and cautious for the duration of it's "recharge" (The 1 misfortune die).

As for how many arrows-I guess what ever you feel makes sense. Since the game doesn't define the length of time a turn takes....so it depends on how you feel it should work.

I have limited rl experience w/a bow-but I would guess you can "snap shoot" maybe 3-4 arrows in a general erea in a fairly short time span. Of course the odds of hitting a target would be largely nothing more then luck., for an untrained archer to say the least.

Parzival said:

The "cause fatigue" question is one that occurs across multiple cards as there are a number that inflict it or Stress (e.g., Knockback shot, Insulting Blow [reckless], Grapple, Intimidate [reckless] etc.). Having Covering Fire wound is tricky since it isn't opposed by Defence.

I don't find converting Monster Stress/Fatigue caused in combat into wounds entirely satisfactory in all circumstances particularly in these instances where if the target was a PC the effect makes sense. If their pools weren't emply I might make Fatigue strike off Aggression points and Stress strike off Cunning points, either strike of Expertise points. I think this emulates the foe being less dangerous, having fewer resources to reach into but not being down and out etc. Other options include adding recharge tokens to actions or advancing a morale meter.

For # of arrows, there are a number of ballistic fire actions where I think the Player should have to strike off multiple arrows for the narrative and mechanics to work, usually as many as the number of targets affected (e.g., Rapid Fire, Arrowstorm are others). I've also done that where the target is a henchmen group and the shot is good enough to kill 3 henchmen (guess you must have fired three arrows there, this really isn't a super-action movie where one arrow plows through three targets).

Rob

Yeah, I dunno what the best solution is as far as the "Fatigue/Stree" issue. But clearly the cards should have been proof read at least one (more) time . Because in the context of the rules....they don't work.

Jericho said:

For Grapple, if you're reckless and get normal damage you punched him in throat, elbowed where there was a wound to make it bleed etc., it's not really restraining/tussling on floor, it's chest-to-chest hampering in combat - being in one of those fencing scenes where it's in close, you've grabbed his sword arm or the wrist of arm holding dagger etc.

Rapid Fire recharges faster and represents just that, quickly but still aiming draw arrow, shoot, draw arrow shoot, if a shot missed it was too hard to allow time for another. Arrowstorm is a wilder blanket fire action, longer to recover from, can't be used from long distance (the ranged fighter's preferred safe distance) and has less chance to hit anything due to the 3 black dice (since you start with 2 and add for very target beyond first, you'll always have at least 3). Both have their scenarios for use. I see Rapid Fire as useful if there is a primary target to damage and extra targets are gravy

Bullseye is a specialized circumstance where you're hidden from targets and would like ideally to stay hidden, and as with previous is also useable from Long Range, the preferred range for ranged fighters. Sniper is careful shot that requires medium range. Myself I would actually have named Bullseye "Sniper" and Sniper "Careful Shot" or something like that.

Rob

I get your point Bohemond, about the Knock back card.

But shouldn't stumbling back be a side-effect of any attack that causes many wounds or a specific crit ?

What if you cause only the minimum wound on that attack ? The Gor situation becomes a bit strange, doesn't it ?

Valvorik, I see your point for the Grapple Card.

If it isn't used for real wrestling, then how would you adjuticate it ? An Unarmed attack with the Entangling quality ?

I think I see where you are coming from with your questions. What I would say, is that the action cards don't actually represent what the player wants to do. Many actions (and these are often the actions that you have difficulty with) represent what the player wants to accomplish. They focus on the end result, not the process. The card leaves the narrative function up to the player, and concerns itself primarily with the outcome . So, rather than having a game in which a high damage roll/ hit location chart/ critical hit indicates a player shoots a monster and the monster stumbles back, the player simply picks an action that has the end result he wants. The game is not simulationists, and that seems to run counter to some of your instincts. Does that make sens?, I am unsure if I expressed my idea particularly clearly.

It does make sense. Yes, the gamist aspect of the game is new for me. I'm more on the simulationnist side historically.

So what you are saying is that the Knock Back card is for players who want to "shoot to push back" and I should expect the player to come up with the description that "explains" the end result. Is that it ? If this is the case, which I gather it is, what do I do if the player makes a lame description that ruins the suspension of disbelief for the group ? Normally, I would comment and "adjust" the player's description to fit the tone I'm trying to put in my campaign as GM.

Which brings me to this thread. In the case mentioned above, I wouldn't know how to "tailor" the player's description to make it fit in the tone of my campaign. Why ? Simply because I have trouble visualising this action card. I just don't see how being hit by an arrow or bullet will make you stumble back... It could make you flee, if you were scared for your life, but stumble 10 yards ? I don't know. Just can't see it.

I guess I should ask my players what there take is on the card and if nobody comes up with a good description, let's just ditch the card. Needless to say, I would prefer t o discover some cool interpretation fo the card.

I would think it is possible to play the game with nothing other then the basic cards.

I have noticed that my players, using the "special cards" only when they apply to the players intent. And stick to basic actions and skill use 99% of the time.

I could alos see ditching the cards all together, if you are familair enough with the way they (the cards) determine what a roll means-they ppretty much follow a basic format.

Jericho said:

Because if you lucky, you may kill Wargor in first turn. Arrowstorm attacks only different targets. Call this "balance".