Ass Frig mk2, that thing is so fugly, that I just don't care how great a ship she is.

Ass Frig mk2, that thing is so fugly, that I just don't care how great a ship she is.

And it needs a nicer name too

First of all, it's basically impossible to tell someone else they're wrong for liking or disliking whatever they please in a competitive game (as their criteria and playing skill/style may differ from yours, making it all subjective).

However, I can't see how one person continuing to rant about their inability to use Raiders well over and over is terribly useful. We get it, you don't like Raiders. Several larger tournaments have been won by Imperial fleets using Raiders so clearly at least some people are using them in competitive environments and succeeding. They may not jive with you and that's fine, but continuing to carry on as though your opinion is objective fact and you need to convince the rest of us isn't really what this thread is about. Please just let it drop.

Mine is the Gladiator. Specifically, the Demolisher. Like Vykes and Church I follow their opinions, like Church I think the ship is okay on it's own, but Gladiator makes it loathesome.

The reason why is because that combination alone has made VSD and ISD "heavy ship" lists obsolete.

Competitively, a kitted Demolisher is a powerful choice. It is more powerful than any ISD or VSD upgrade combination for effectiveness and use of points. So once you have Demolisher you have two directions: Build up with large ships, or build wide with cheap ones. Since Activations can be seen as more valuable than Hull for lists running Demolisher, the default option is to go wide. And since APTs are the best upgrade card in the game for what they do, better to load up on Black torpedo carriers to play the game ignoring shields and handing criticals to your opponent.

So... I dislike the Gladiator for what it has done to the Imperial list-building meta. Imperial Captains are not standing on the majestic, canonical command decks of Star Destroyers and commanding the destruction of their enemies by a torrent of turbolaser fire. Instead, they're in the crash seat between Screed and Montferrat racing into range to deliver APTs and black dice as close as possible and as often as possible. That is not the Imperial Navy I imagined myself wanting to command, but that is the strongest of the Imperial dynamics right now.

I am experimenting with an Interdictor and 2x VSD-I build right now, for the revenge of Expanded Launcher VSD-1s. Won both trial games so far, lets see how the next iteration goes.

IMO the chassis is what makes demo build so strong. 4 black dice on the sides means high chance of APT crit on the two taps that the sides are used. OE augments APT crit chance as well as damage output, hence making it such a beast. Mc30s only have 3 to the side and can't triple tap. Perhaps one die reduction to the sides, or changing Glad I to one red die and Glad II to two red die to sides might be better for it. second option makes Insidious more usable too.

Visually the Raider is pretty ugly. It's not the design but the way the hull plating looks on the model. The lines between plates are far too thick and dark that puts me completely off.

First of all, it's basically impossible to tell someone else they're wrong for liking or disliking whatever they please in a competitive game (as their criteria and playing skill/style may differ from yours, making it all subjective).

However, I can't see how one person continuing to rant about their inability to use Raiders well over and over is terribly useful. We get it, you don't like Raiders. Several larger tournaments have been won by Imperial fleets using Raiders so clearly at least some people are using them in competitive environments and succeeding. They may not jive with you and that's fine, but continuing to carry on as though your opinion is objective fact and you need to convince the rest of us isn't really what this thread is about. Please just let it drop.

Yea, why do you guys keep responding? Raiders are garbage and you all want to keep effort-posting to the contrary. Too bad none of it Changes their abysmal stats. No amount of "get gud" is going to give it red dice, or the ability to survive at close range. Let's all just keep saying meaningless platitudes about "skill floors" and pretend that turds are actually gold.

I already made the point that Imperial fleets have won highly-attended competitive events with fleets using Raiders.* If Raiders weren't useful, then they wouldn't be in tournament-winning lists. If they don't fit your playstyle, that's fine, but just being a troll set to permanent aggro mode about them isn't really helping anybody in this thread. You can either accept that for whatever reason** Raiders are not working for you although they work for other people or you can cling to the ludicrous notion that somehow despite proven results in a competitive field you know better about Raiders than everyone else.

*clontroper5 won the Vassal tournament with a Demolisher+4 Raider fleet which made the clonisher a thing, I won the 2016 Adepticon tournament with a fleet with 3 Gladiators+2 Raiders, pt106 has won a few events with his 3 Raider+2 ISD fleet, etc. Those are just the ones that come to mind, I'm sure there are more.

**It could be that the type of fleets you put together don't really need what Raiders offer. It could be that your basic playstyle prefers longer-ranged ships. It could be you don't really grasp how to use Raiders. That would actually be my guess given your comments. They're a very tricky ship to use well due to their weapons compliment favoring short-ranged fighting and their defense token suite favoring long-ranged fighting. You can't use them like a Gladiator and go charging in. You need to use their big front arcs and high maneuverability to "catch" enemy ships that end their movement close to you. They like being in higher-activation fleets for that reason - they can wait out potential prey. But anyways, there's a lot of possible explanations there and I've never seen you play so it's all just guesswork.

First of all, it's basically impossible to tell someone else they're wrong for liking or disliking whatever they please in a competitive game (as their criteria and playing skill/style may differ from yours, making it all subjective).

However, I can't see how one person continuing to rant about their inability to use Raiders well over and over is terribly useful. We get it, you don't like Raiders. Several larger tournaments have been won by Imperial fleets using Raiders so clearly at least some people are using them in competitive environments and succeeding. They may not jive with you and that's fine, but continuing to carry on as though your opinion is objective fact and you need to convince the rest of us isn't really what this thread is about. Please just let it drop.

Yea, why do you guys keep responding? Raiders are garbage and you all want to keep effort-posting to the contrary. Too bad none of it Changes their abysmal stats. No amount of "get gud" is going to give it red dice, or the ability to survive at close range. Let's all just keep saying meaningless platitudes about "skill floors" and pretend that turds are actually gold.

I already made the point that Imperial fleets have won highly-attended competitive events with fleets using Raiders.* If Raiders weren't useful, then they wouldn't be in tournament-winning lists. If they don't fit your playstyle, that's fine, but just being a troll set to permanent aggro mode about them isn't really helping anybody in this thread. You can either accept that for whatever reason** Raiders are not working for you although they work for other people or you can cling to the ludicrous notion that somehow despite proven results in a competitive field you know better about Raiders than everyone else.

*clontroper5 won the Vassal tournament with a Demolisher+4 Raider fleet which made the clonisher a thing, I won the 2016 Adepticon tournament with a fleet with 3 Gladiators+2 Raiders, pt106 has won a few events with his 3 Raider+2 ISD fleet, etc. Those are just the ones that come to mind, I'm sure there are more.

**It could be that the type of fleets you put together don't really need what Raiders offer. It could be that your basic playstyle prefers longer-ranged ships. It could be you don't really grasp how to use Raiders. That would actually be my guess given your comments. They're a very tricky ship to use well due to their weapons compliment favoring short-ranged fighting and their defense token suite favoring long-ranged fighting. You can't use them like a Gladiator and go charging in. You need to use their big front arcs and high maneuverability to "catch" enemy ships that end their movement close to you. They like being in higher-activation fleets for that reason - they can wait out potential prey. But anyways, there's a lot of possible explanations there and I've never seen you play so it's all just guesswork.

Raiders winning anything is more a dig at the competitive scene than anything.

It's cute that you think a few tournament results are so important. Goblin Charbelcher wins every now and again, I suppose you think it's also not a garbage gimmick.

So raiders only work if you catch opponets foolishly charging into them? Hrmm, what if I set my ISD or MC80 to speed zero? Do you just conceed since the act of moving your raiders close enough to shoot gets them all killed?

First of all, it's basically impossible to tell someone else they're wrong for liking or disliking whatever they please in a competitive game (as their criteria and playing skill/style may differ from yours, making it all subjective).

However, I can't see how one person continuing to rant about their inability to use Raiders well over and over is terribly useful. We get it, you don't like Raiders. Several larger tournaments have been won by Imperial fleets using Raiders so clearly at least some people are using them in competitive environments and succeeding. They may not jive with you and that's fine, but continuing to carry on as though your opinion is objective fact and you need to convince the rest of us isn't really what this thread is about. Please just let it drop.

Yea, why do you guys keep responding? Raiders are garbage and you all want to keep effort-posting to the contrary. Too bad none of it Changes their abysmal stats. No amount of "get gud" is going to give it red dice, or the ability to survive at close range. Let's all just keep saying meaningless platitudes about "skill floors" and pretend that turds are actually gold.

I already made the point that Imperial fleets have won highly-attended competitive events with fleets using Raiders.* If Raiders weren't useful, then they wouldn't be in tournament-winning lists. If they don't fit your playstyle, that's fine, but just being a troll set to permanent aggro mode about them isn't really helping anybody in this thread. You can either accept that for whatever reason** Raiders are not working for you although they work for other people or you can cling to the ludicrous notion that somehow despite proven results in a competitive field you know better about Raiders than everyone else.

*clontroper5 won the Vassal tournament with a Demolisher+4 Raider fleet which made the clonisher a thing, I won the 2016 Adepticon tournament with a fleet with 3 Gladiators+2 Raiders, pt106 has won a few events with his 3 Raider+2 ISD fleet, etc. Those are just the ones that come to mind, I'm sure there are more.

**It could be that the type of fleets you put together don't really need what Raiders offer. It could be that your basic playstyle prefers longer-ranged ships. It could be you don't really grasp how to use Raiders. That would actually be my guess given your comments. They're a very tricky ship to use well due to their weapons compliment favoring short-ranged fighting and their defense token suite favoring long-ranged fighting. You can't use them like a Gladiator and go charging in. You need to use their big front arcs and high maneuverability to "catch" enemy ships that end their movement close to you. They like being in higher-activation fleets for that reason - they can wait out potential prey. But anyways, there's a lot of possible explanations there and I've never seen you play so it's all just guesswork.

Raiders winning anything is more a dig at the competitive scene than anything.

It's cute that you think a few tournament results are so important. Goblin Charbelcher wins every now and again, I suppose you think it's also not a garbage gimmick.

So raiders only work if you catch opponets foolishly charging into them? Hrmm, what if I set my ISD or MC80 to speed zero? Do you just conceed since the act of moving your raiders close enough to shoot gets them all killed?

Your hatred has made you blind.

First of all, it's basically impossible to tell someone else they're wrong for liking or disliking whatever they please in a competitive game (as their criteria and playing skill/style may differ from yours, making it all subjective).

However, I can't see how one person continuing to rant about their inability to use Raiders well over and over is terribly useful. We get it, you don't like Raiders. Several larger tournaments have been won by Imperial fleets using Raiders so clearly at least some people are using them in competitive environments and succeeding. They may not jive with you and that's fine, but continuing to carry on as though your opinion is objective fact and you need to convince the rest of us isn't really what this thread is about. Please just let it drop.

Yea, why do you guys keep responding? Raiders are garbage and you all want to keep effort-posting to the contrary. Too bad none of it Changes their abysmal stats. No amount of "get gud" is going to give it red dice, or the ability to survive at close range. Let's all just keep saying meaningless platitudes about "skill floors" and pretend that turds are actually gold.

I already made the point that Imperial fleets have won highly-attended competitive events with fleets using Raiders.* If Raiders weren't useful, then they wouldn't be in tournament-winning lists. If they don't fit your playstyle, that's fine, but just being a troll set to permanent aggro mode about them isn't really helping anybody in this thread. You can either accept that for whatever reason** Raiders are not working for you although they work for other people or you can cling to the ludicrous notion that somehow despite proven results in a competitive field you know better about Raiders than everyone else.

*clontroper5 won the Vassal tournament with a Demolisher+4 Raider fleet which made the clonisher a thing, I won the 2016 Adepticon tournament with a fleet with 3 Gladiators+2 Raiders, pt106 has won a few events with his 3 Raider+2 ISD fleet, etc. Those are just the ones that come to mind, I'm sure there are more.

**It could be that the type of fleets you put together don't really need what Raiders offer. It could be that your basic playstyle prefers longer-ranged ships. It could be you don't really grasp how to use Raiders. That would actually be my guess given your comments. They're a very tricky ship to use well due to their weapons compliment favoring short-ranged fighting and their defense token suite favoring long-ranged fighting. You can't use them like a Gladiator and go charging in. You need to use their big front arcs and high maneuverability to "catch" enemy ships that end their movement close to you. They like being in higher-activation fleets for that reason - they can wait out potential prey. But anyways, there's a lot of possible explanations there and I've never seen you play so it's all just guesswork.

Raiders winning anything is more a dig at the competitive scene than anything.

It's cute that you think a few tournament results are so important. Goblin Charbelcher wins every now and again, I suppose you think it's also not a garbage gimmick.

So raiders only work if you catch opponets foolishly charging into them? Hrmm, what if I set my ISD or MC80 to speed zero? Do you just conceed since the act of moving your raiders close enough to shoot gets them all killed?

No I use Demolisher. The net closes whether you like it or not and the raiders are crucial to that.

Your hatred has made you blind.

Please oh please let my opponents only fly one ship need to worry about!

Til a raider with expanded launchers has you in arc.

Til a raider with expanded launchers has you in arc.

Who cares, it's perpetually out of range.