anyone know the ranks of a Commisar? i know the first is Cadet but in DH terms what would the be? starting from Rank 3 because thats the Chalised Commisar alternate career starting rank. and i think it would be slightly strange to have a commisar, cadet even so, at rank one im fairly sure they have to be in the guard for a little before they gain even an amount of recognition from the Commisarat.

Lexicanum is you friend :

Personnel selected to become cadet Commissars are drawn from the Schola Progenium - Ecclesiarchy-run schools, where the pupils have already received a strict Imperial cult education.

Cadet Commissars are given the standard arms and equipment of a Guardsman, although they retain their distinctive uniforms. These uniforms differ from those of a full Commissar by featuring blue trim and a specific Cadet emblem. Their training has no set duration and a Cadet will be graduated as soon as he is deemed worthy. Part of the training of a Cadet-Commissar emphasises learning standard infantry tactics and gaining experience in situations common to standard Imperial Guardsmen. In order to ensure this, Commissar-Generals may decide to form up the Cadets under their purview into Training Squads, 9 Cadets under the command of a specially chosen full Commissar.

Commissar Training Squads are groups of Cadet-Commissars, formed up into a fighting squad and led by a full Commissar into battle. These Cadets are then trained, under battlefield conditions, in how to live, fight and even die alongside the troops they are supposed to one day inspire and discipline. They are sent into the fiercest fighting, in which they are expected to show bravery and devotion enough to earn the respect afforded to them by standard troopers. Commissar Training Squads are highly motivated and pious fighting units and an Imperial Guard force accompanied by such a squad will consider itself destined for victory.

When a Commissar decides that a Cadet has failed in his duty to become a Commissar, but has not shown cowardice or insubordination, the Cadet is relieved and may be either sent to a Stormtrooper unit or become an officer in a penal battalion. Others volunteer for service in a Rogue Trader's entourage, and others may face darker destinies.

Commissar-Generals are senior and highly experienced Commissars, having the additional responsibilities of assigning the Commissars under his command to regimental officers and promoting cadets to full Commissar status.

Colonel-Commissar

Colonel-Commissar is a rare rank of the Imperial Guard, held usually in only extraordinary cases. Though the records show the rank being held as recently as the Sabbat Worlds Crusade (Ibram Gaunt) the inherent clash between the two roles is normally seen as a threat to a regiment's discipline - Commissars maintain discipline and watch commanders, the commander leads the regiment in combat - the two roles are technically exclusive.

So it seems that the Imperial Commissariat doesn't have too many ranks (though they don't really need many different ranks since they aren't supposed to be an integrated part of the Imperial Guard, following the same chain of command, but rather more like independent advisors with the authority to execute failing officers and commanders and assuming command themselves if need be). From what I understand here the ranks in the commissariat are either: Commissar Cadets, Commissar Training Squad members (probably refered to as "cadets" in the line of battle), Commissars and Commissar-General.

Additionally there's also freak instances of Colonel-Commissars or other ranks (which doesn't really mean anything in Commissariat terms, it just signifies that this particular commissar has also been given a permanent rank of command in a particular regiment, a rare practice obviously frowned upon by the Commissariat and the Departemento Munitorium due to the sometimes obvious conflicts of interests and added paperwork).

It should be noted that the idea of squads of Cadet-Commissars drawn straight from the Schola Progenium is one seldom, if ever, mentioned in canon anymore (it appears in material published for the original Rogue Trader, and is frequently reiterated by fans, but that's about it) - more recent sources suggest that Commissars are as frequently recruited from amongst the ranks of the Departmento Munitorum's Stormtroopers (who themselves are Progena)

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Cain's Last Stand sort of borders those two options. They travel in a squad with thier teacher and learn on the job first hand. This would be supported by the Naval Commissars in the novel Relentless.

I use the Gaunts Ghosts and Commissar Cains novels as my first source for Commissars, not the codex. 40K kind of forces you to pick and choose what you like and think is more accurate.

Colonel-Commissar is NOT a Commissariat rank.

In FIRST AND ONLY - it makes clear that Gaunt's title of Colonel-Commissar is not a rank of Commissar. Gaunt just happens to be both the Colonel of an Imperial Guard regiment, AND separately a Commissar. The hyphenated rank is because Gaunt holds both titles not because he's a higher ranking commissar.

In the early Caiphas Cain novels there is a discussion of discipline of Commissars and comparitive authority. Once you go from Cadet to full commissar authority is apparently based on a mix of seniority (time served in Commissariat) and service record (those serving in frontline combat are more respected than those in rear echelon positions) Also for a commissar to be disciplined the governing body is a panel of the three most senior/most veteran commissars available.

Otherwise Commissars do not have conventional rank specifically to place them outside the regular chain of command authority. Nominally they answer to the Colonel of their assigned regiment, until due to matters of discipline or need for removal the Commissar removes or countermands such regimental commander.

More recently the newest Imperial Guard Codex adds the command rank of Lord Commissar, which is apparently a more senior/higher authority rank.

DocIII said:

No.

But it's a recognized rank within the Departmento Munitorum. And the Commissariat is a branch of the Departmento Munitorum... So, well you get the idea...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Really, it's not one rank; it's two.

Commissars are political officers. As I see it, they have no de-facto authority to command the men under their auspices, be they Navy or Guard. Their purpose and their duties are ensuring discipline, loyalty, moral purity (not spiritual purity; that's what priests are for) and upholding the regulations of the Departmento Munitorum. A Commissar is, for the most part, an advisor to the real officers - the ones who must command men and ships. A Commissar endorses the orders of the officer to whom he is assigned (and all those subordinate to that officer), determining that those orders are appropriate, dutiful and in the interests of the Imperium. A Commissar takes command only when there is no alternative - normally in the heat of battle where summary judgement has been required and left men and machines without their proper commanders where no suitable replacement is available.

A Colonel is, well, a name commonly applied to regimental commanders of the Imperial Guard. Completely different set of duties.

Ibram Gaunt - the only example of this peculiarity of circumstances that we know of - holds both ranks. Colonel-Commissar is merely a naming convention for that, rather than an indication of any particular distinct rank.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Exactly what I was getting at. Two-jobs, one guy. Not a new position in the chain of command.

That Gaunt is a colonel does not affect his position/standing within the commissariat and his being a commissar does not grant him higher command authority in the IG than his rank as a Colonel. His life is easier in that he can endorse his own orders and doesn't have to worry about executing himself for failure, but that's just fringe benefits of filling both positions.

Dont forget, in First and Only, Gaunts mentor, teacher and senior commisar is a General Commissar.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Wasn´t Delane Oktar Commissar-General ? Becouse this rank is used several times in 40k fluff (mostly in Ghosts and also in Imperial Armour books) as real "rank" of Commissariat, especialy for those commissars supervising vast quantities of guardsmen (all Hyrkan regiments for Oktar, half a million men of Krieg 143rd (IIRC) for Commissar-General Maugh, whole forces of Taros campaign for Commissar-General van Horcic...) and other commissars.

But there are more known ranks of Commissariat. Naval Commissar of Lord Admiral Revensbourgh from Battlefleet Gothic had a title of Fleet-Commissar, new Guard codex introduces Lord Commissars, "historical" introduction to Rebel Winter is written by Commissar-Colonel (note the position of titles!) and I swear, somewhere I read about High Commissar.

Still it seems that basic premise of Commissariat "ranks" and authority is simple. It is based on seniority and personal record, and sometimes it may be glorified by some title or rank, but still, veteran Commissar with heroic service record would have same authority as Commissar-General with similar record and experience, just several sectors away.

So we can confirm in recent fluff (10 years or less old) that the following Commissar Ranks exist.

Cadet (New IG Codex, Cain's Last Stand, Relentless)

Commissar (Obviously)

Lord Commissar (New IG Codex)

Commissioned Commissars (Tanith Novels, this is the rank of Commissar that also holds a Officers rank)

And we know Commissars can be judged by a tribunal of other Commissars (The Traitor's Hand) so there must be a special assignment of Tribunal Commissar.

And there is division between Naval and Guard Commissars.

And no we know some PDF/Sector forces have their own version of Commissars (Chaliced Commissars).

There was even a Commissar in Bringers of Death and 15 Hours who acted largely as a cross between Psychological Operations, Public Affairs and Judge Advocate General.

So at this point, I think it is best to determine what are the best fluff sources to read to gain information about Commissars? As there is so much info out there, I think you can find something to support the way you want to run a commissar.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I think that Vervun Primary Hive Commissariat from Necropolis should also be noted. (Personaly I invent my own Merov Hives People Commissariat, as Merov rulers secret police and Merov Penal Legion brother-generals weapon against influence of Chaliced (and as well Imperial) Commissariat in their affairs.)

Plus don´t forget formal ranks of seniority as Commissar-General, Commissar-Colonel or Commissar-Captain (I just remembered there was one as character in Rebel Winter), which are different to "commissioned" Commissars you mentioned.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Surely, by definition, a "Commissioned" Commissar is simply a Commissar when considered only from the perspective of the Commissariat - his rank and status as a Commissar is not changed by the rank he holds within the Imperial Guard or Imperial Navy (the latter being hypothetical)

Peacekeeper_b said:

Again, is an additional rank actually needed here, or is one being assumed for the sake of diversity? All you need for a tribunal of Commissars is, well, other Commissars. By the nature of their duties, a Commissar is required to be fully conversant in the laws, strictures and regulations of the Departmento Munitorum (because they're the ones charged with upholding them), and consequently every Commissar is by merit of being a Commissar inherently qualified to dispense justice upon any and all persons subject to those regulations.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Again, is there a distinction? I don't think I've ever seen anything official that actually suggested a formal distinction. A practical one, perhaps, taking advantage of an individual Commissar's familiarity with one force or the other, but beyond that I don't see a necessity for an actual rank distinction, particularly when the Commissars are part of the parent organisation for both the Guard and the Navy.

I think a distinction needs to be made concerning the difference between rank and assignment; just as a ship's captain in the Imperial Navy may not necessarily be a Captain in rank (though he will be referred to as such while in command of his assigned vessel), a ship's Commissar is simply the senior-most Commissar assigned to that vessel, a Commissar serving as part of a tribunal to judge another Commissar does not necessarily have to be of different rank, and so forth.

As for Commissar General, I've always thought of that as being equivalent to the real-world terms Advocate General, Inspector General, etc. It doesn't have anything to do with the Imperial Guard rank of General, but is rather a term used to denote a high-ranking Commissar

And I agree with you 100% mainly because you have only underlined what I said. I never said a tribunal commissar was a different "rank" but a special assignment. Same goes for Naval and Guard Commissars, obviously the have the same overall goal and job, but Im sure a Naval Commissar will go from Naval to Naval assignment, while a Guard orieneted one will go from Guard to Guard jobs, with of course exceptions and needs making changes.

The difference, overall, in game terms is a Naval Commissar will have more Naval knowledge then Guard knowledge and vice versa, but there is a distinction in the two assignments.

So we are agreed. There are differences but they are minute.

Still leads a foundation for a Cader, Commissar, Senior Commissar, Lord Commissar alternate rank structure for Guardsman Career path.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I don't see a need for quite so many, personally. A number of life-changing Alternate Ranks (Mechanicus Secutor and Templar Calix being good examples of this) are built to be sufficiently large that progressing through them will take several ranks, so simply putting in a single Commissar alternate rank at Rank 5 or 6, with enough advances within it to shape the character for a while to come, and a Background package for Schola Progenium Guardsmen for Cadet-Commissars (representing that they've been chosen from the outset to train as a Commissar, and giving them a few defining abilities to start with) would be entirely sufficient, IMO.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well I see a starting Cadet Commissar as having a different skill set then most conscripts. They would have deeper starting knowledge of the creed and laws and regulations then a conscript and would be, by nature, more inquisitive then a conscript.

Thats why I think the cadet is a useful career rank, and it could be a general cadet career rank that any guardsman could take to represent officers training.

And I think too many alternate ranks are held off to rank 5 or 6 and not enough at ranks 1, 2 and 3. So I would put Cadet at 1 and Commissar at 3.

My two cents.

(however, recent rethinking has me looking more at Arbitrator then Guardsman)

Peacekeeper_b said:

Deeper starting knowledge of the creed: Schola Progenium origin. Knowledge of laws and regulations, more inquisitive nature... additional skills. I don't see how any of that can't be represented by a background package for Schola-born Guardsmen rather than an alternate rank.

Peacekeeper_b said:

My inclination is towards Rank 6 mainly because that's the point at which the Guardsman career splits - sitting the Commissar at the front end of the officer branch seems entirely appropriate, IMO.

As for there being, in your opinion, not enough alternate ranks at ranks 1, 2 and 3... what does that have to do with Commissars in particular? Surely it's more important that a given rank be in an appropriate place rather than it fill some separate need for low-end alternate ranks.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

True, and I agree, I dont want to shoe horn in alternate commissar ranks into earlier slots/ranks just to fill those ranks, but at the same time can see a background package or alternate rank 1 for Cadet. And dont have an objection for Commissars starting at rank 3, like the chaliced commissar does.

As I said earlier, Im leaning toward Schola-Progenium origin, Arbitrator career path and one of the background packages (or a new one) or an alternate rank 1 career option to create a better Commissar (cadet onward).

But its good to debate these and get different opinions and ideas to mesh it out properly. I also think that by making it a rank 1 option it allows you to make immediate long term adjustments to a career path, such as altering the characterisitc costs with swaps and so much.

Well Im off to Munich, happy new years everyone

I'm sure I remember most Commisar's officially having the rank of Commisar - Lieutent. And is Commisar Lord an actual rank? Could it be that Commisar covers Commisar - Leiutenants through Commisar - Captains which a Commisar Lord could be ranked Commisar - Colonel or above?

And from a purely theoretical point of view is there a reason why a Commisar would be unsuitable for the Inquisition to use. On the surface they seem to do similar things but their blind loyalty to the chain of command might put them at odds with an Inquisitor. I don't remember their being commisars in an Inquisition led army set up but I could be reading too much into it.

Even with this in mind I did start to come up with alternative guard background and rank and that needed at least one stat point swap (way too low WP for Guardsmen IMHO) but now you mention it might well be easier starting with a Arbite. The downside I imagined was that Cadet Commisars were reviled by rank and file guardsmen when there weren't Officers or Commisars around.

Commissars are perfectly suited if working with the the big Inquisition. Commissars Cain and Gaunt have been used by them many many times.

Peacekeeper_b said:

With, certainly... for, that's a different matter, potentially. All loyal subjects of the Imperium should be (or perhaps must be), willing to comply with the requirements of the Inquisition, but it takes a particular kind of person to be a true servant of the Inquisition (that is, an Acolyte or other agent of the Inquisition itself, rather than merely being someone who happens to be doing the will of an Inquisitor at the time).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I agree.

A Commissar might seem well suited to assist an Inquisitor conducting an investiagtion near the front lines to a certain degree, but it would be unusual for a commissar to simply relinquish his duties to the Departmento Munitorum and Imperial Guard just to become a full time member of the Inquisition instead.

Still, "unusual" isn't really the same thing as "impossible", and if I know Peacekeeper_b correctly I don't think it's gonna stop him from including a commissar careerpath in his games.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well as with all "recruits" into the ranks of Inquisitorial Acolytes, once that Commissar is taken into the Inquisitor's retinue, he kind of has a new career.

He may still use his skill set (intimidation, knowledge of the creed/guard, leadership, scrutiny, inquiry, combat skills) but he has fallen into a new line of work.

He may be pulled into the game/campaign at the beginning of say Maggots in the Meat (brrrr), be carried on over into the Haarlock legacy and finish up on a rogue trader adventure as he heads back to his regiment. In game time maybe a year or two passes, but whats that in the 60 or so years of service he has to fulfil anyway? In campaign wise time, the campaign may begin and end.

I'm sure I remember most Commisar's officially having the rank of Commisar - Lieutent. And is Commisar Lord an actual rank? Could it be that Commisar covers Commisar - Leiutenants through Commisar - Captains which a Commisar Lord could be ranked Commisar - Colonel or above?

As has already been noted, Commissar-[militaryrank] is a title nearly unheard-of because it defeats the very purpose of the office - to stay outside the chain of command and monitor it.

For an internal hierarchy of the Commissariat, I think Mitchell's idea of there only being a very simple pecking order (say, cadet/commissar/Lord Commissar) is spot-on, considering there won't be that many of them around that you need a multi-layered one - and of course, if you want them to monitor everyone, having them capable of judging one another via a jury will likely produce better results than the strict guard hierarchy where noone can second-guess their superiors.

Cifer said:

Except for page 26 of the Inquisitor's Handbook which has a quote from a Commissar Captain.