Players are playing Astropath and Navigator. Since they are players, they accompany the Captain and the other pc on dangeours mission.

Which would put the Ship on very very high risk. If the Astropath does not return, there is no more communications with the rest of the Imperium. If the Navigator does not return, the ship will be limited to "calculated jumps"... which should be impossible in uncharted void.

So, do you (groups&GMs) simply ignore this by the rules of cool and bravadore or do you have "backup on board". If so, in which form?

Thank you!

Ok, when the Astropath dies, it's not good, but you can easily operate the ship without him...

And for the Navigator: There are 2-4 lesser Navigators on board, which can bring the ship back to Footfall or any other big port, where they can find another Navigator.

In both cases, the exploration is done for the next time

I generally rule a choir of 3-5 Astropaths, plus a family of 2-3 Navigators, on every RT starting ship. Replace one or more of those with PCs to flavor.

One of my players brought up an interesting point. It would be logical to have at least 2-3 Navigators on every ship. Because even a Navigator needs to sleep and you do not want to let your ship drift in the warp. So, 3 navigators doing 8 hours shifts plus one or two apprentices would not sound illogical.

For Astropaths, you want to have an Astropath capable to send and receive messages at interestellar ranges. That means at least a Psy rating of 6. Considering that a starting Astropath starts with just a rating of 2, he will need a choir of at least 6 to be able to send towards the next system. One major astropath and 4 choir members sounds like the least you need.

I rule that there's ONE of each (and sometimes that spot might be taken up by a player character rather than an NPC).

I can stretch the number of astropaths a bit if the players feel that they need more than one, but if that's the case it's gonna cost them. More Navigators would cost even more. There's nothing saying that it's "standard practice" to keep several Navigators and Astropaths on board at all times for Rogue Traders. Those "creatures" are rare commodities after all, and they are much needed aboard every warp capable vessel...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Actually, it is stated that there will be several onboard, both in the book and from the developers.

MILLANDSON said:

On vessels of the Imperial Navy perhaps. Rogue Traders operate as private entrepeneurs, and in that regard, I doubt that there's any form of "standard procedure" as to how many navigators or astropaths will be on board from the start. If my group wants more than the basic number, then they'll have to procure more navigators and astropaths themselves, like all Rogue Traders have to...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well, the devs have said that RTs are more likely to have more Navigatos and Astropaths than naval ships, given that they spend so long out of the Imperium, which makes more sense than travelling the unknown without any replacements, when you can be out there for years at a time...

MILLANDSON said:

Probably. But the PC's are called (at the beginning of the campaign) "starting characters" for a reason.

Besides, I dislike the notion of reducing the Navigator PC to a simple "combat badass" just because he/she can use lidless stare and fry pretty much any living creature within a specific radius. If the party is allowed to simply start out with a small coterie of Navigators on board (without having to work for it in the slightest), then the PC Navigator's role won't be as important.

The Navigator's time to shine should be when guiding the vessel safely through the immaterium, not because he can make heads explode by flashing the third eye.

So, in my not so humble opinion, letting the Rogue Trader start out with "spare" Navigators and astropaths from scratch, doesn't make any sense at all from a dramatic perspective. So in this case, the devs might just have made a mistake.

I don't mind that seasoned RT's keep several astropaths and Navigator NPC's on board. But a party of PC's starting afresh? NosirreBob!

My players asked this question. I answered "as many as needed." Since I only have one PC Astropath and Navigator, that's one of each. Should they die, and a new PC be made to take their place, it will turn out that the ship had two. I'm purposely keeping the number of Astropaths and Navigators low so that when the specific number becomes critically important, the issue can be spun out into an adventure in and of itself.

I do not see how there can be a standard rule for the number of Navigators and Astropaths on a ship. Although I like the rotation idea, i.e. having backups for long voyages in the warp, I really think the final number should be up to the individual Rogue Trader, purchased through the Acquisition Tables.

I would say give Navigators an Extremely Rare (-30) and Power (-10) Modifier to Acquisition (-40). Each additional Navigator would add -10 to the modifier. This gets you a Novice. Modify the Acquisition by -15 for an Adept, and -30 for a Master.

I would say give Astropaths an Extremely Rare (-30) and Etheric (-20) Modifer to Acquisition (-50). Each additional Astropath would add -10 to the modifier. This gets you a Psi 3 Astropath. Modify the Acquisition by -10 for each Psi level above this, to a max of 6.

I will try this with my groups next acquisitions.

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Astropaths aren't particularly rare, though - they're a common enough sight on every world in the Imperium, and new Astropaths are constantly being produced. Certainly, compared to any other form of sanctioned psyker, they're quite commonplace.

In Eisenhorn Book III: Hereticus, the good Inquisitor gets off a train what seems like every 15 feet to talk to more Astropaths.

Ihave to agree with Varnias and Millandson both. I dont see there being an Imperial Ship Weighstation stopping ships very few systems to do a inventory check on the number of Astropaths and Navigators onboard and issue tickets if less then 3 or what not.

However, I could see prospective customers asking the same question and saying "really, the one only huh? And if he cant do the job for some reason?" Followed quickly by "I think Ill fly south west instead, thank you!"

In fact, in my upcoming campaing, the second Endeavour is to find a Navigator(s) willing to pilot the ship the characters inherit in their first Endeavor after the reading of a will. I plan on starting the game using Dark Heresy characters and allow the new careers as Alternate Career paths starting at Rank 4.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

According to the Astropath Transcendent description on page 48 of the Rogue Trader rule book, the Astropaths which rise above the Choir and become great enough to explore are rare. It also states that a Rogue Trader might have a mere handful of astropaths, with only one being stationed on a vessel. Where did you see that they were not rare? It is very specific in the main book. The entire page focuses on how rare they are and how in demand they are.

Varnias Tybalt said:

MILLANDSON said:

So, in my not so humble opinion, letting the Rogue Trader start out with "spare" Navigators and astropaths from scratch, doesn't make any sense at all from a dramatic perspective. So in this case, the devs might just have made a mistake.

I don't mind that seasoned RT's keep several astropaths and Navigator NPC's on board. But a party of PC's starting afresh? NosirreBob!

I agree with this take. However, if a group can spend the acquisition points to have a back-up on board, I would not have a problem with it. The death of your only Navigator might produce some very interesting adventuring, a la Star Trek: Voyager, but it might also be a serious drag on a planned adventure.

In my opinion, both of these character types are very rare, but if your group has the profit factor and pull, they should be able to get a limited few.

So are sanctioned psykers rare or not?

It seems to me that every PC in this game has at least a small cadre of underlings that have their skills to a lesser degree (except the RT himself who has a cadre of PCs.) When your Void-Master goes down in a Hit and Run, another pilot from the crew takes over using the Crew Rating. If your Exploritor dies your ship doesn't instantly stop running (although a period of morning is to be expected.) I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for the other characters. So losing your navigator wouldn't mean a long boring jouney of small jumps; it would mean a higher chance of warp encounters or accidentally popping out in Ork Space.

This ain't no DnD or LOTR with a few friends walking out into the woods. This is Rogue Trader and you have a whole city in your inventory.

TraderJB said:

That's my take on it. On a ship of over 20,000 people, what are the chances that only a single one of those would be able to actually pilot the ship through the warp? It just makes no sense to only have a single navigator or astropath.

First of all, thanks to all who gave me in insight on how they are handling things (this was what I asekd for, and I am always happy to get what I am asking for ).

I think I will stick with the "2 to 5 onboard".

Thanks to all, and goodybye.

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Astropaths Transcendent are rare, certainly... but they are not the sum total of the personnel of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.

In regards to the common mass of Astropaths, the Codex Imperialis from 2nd edition 40k has this to say:

"The need for Astropaths is enormous. They are a common sight in the Imperium and are easily distinguished by their green robes. Astropaths serve in the Fleet as shio-board and shore-based communicators. They also serve in the Imperial Guard, the Inquisition, the Adeptus Ministorum, the Space Marines and throughout the Adeptus Terra.

"The Imperial Commanders of distant worlds must have Astropaths if they are to communicate with the rest of the Imperium. Similarly, Astropaths are an essential part of civilian life, working for commercial shippers and anywhere where interstellar communication is needed. This vast body makes up a network covering the entire Imperium, facilitating the transfer of information from one end of the galaxy to the other."

The League of Blackships divide their cargo into three broad categories: those insufficient for any purpose but to fuel the Golden Throne (sacrifices), those with the strength of will to resist daemonic assault (primary psykers), and those with sufficient strength to be useful to the Imperium but without the resilience to repel the intrusion of daemonic entities (secondary psykers). Aside from those few randomly selected to become part of the Choir of the Astronomicon, every single secondary psyker undergoes training and soul-binding to become an Astropath. The rarer ones with the power to be useful and the resilience to be stable are simply sanctioned, trained and sent out into the galaxy.

It all adds up to paint a clear picture - there are Astropaths everywhere, in significant numbers. By any worthwhile standard, they're not exactly rare.

TraderJB said:

Yes, a city full of mostly useless ship ratings who hav ebasically had their entire lives tasked at pushing a specific button when ordered to, or watching a certain gauge and make sure critical levels aren't reached or simply help pulling large chains with hundreds of other ship ratings to load gigantic cannons with gigantic munitions etc.

This is nowhere near the sophistication, specialized training, near unique abilities and gifts that is needed to navigate vessels or send astropathic messages through the warp.

Having a city full of thousands of uneducated hillbilly's will do you little good when you need one of the oh, so rare genetic mutants who are the only people capable of safely navigating an entire starship through the warp...

Varnias Tybalt said:

I don't know how you run your ship, but 'round here useless crew get thrown out the airlock.

Anyway, if you were a Navigator would you get on a ship headed into unknown territory without brining a backup? What if you got the flu or space scurvy or possesed? Wouldn't you want your kid sister along to rush you back to the nearest imperial world to get cured and/or exorcised?

Even as the mook who hauls chain, I think I'd try to find another job before heading off with the nutty people who think they could run around the halo with just one navigator.

TraderJB said:

That implies that the common masses of the crew (remembering that a good number of them will be unskilled manual labourers scooped up of the last hive world or penal colony the ship visited) know about the details of what goes on around the Bridge. They may know that the ship has a Navigator who directs the ship through the Warp... but beyond that, I doubt they'll have anything more than idle speculation.

TraderJB said:

Well they aren't useless at what they do of course, but I find it a bit presumptous to assume that just because you own a space faring city with thousands of people aboard you're pretty much guaranteed to have "spares" for every vital post aboard the vessel in question. Especially for such esoteric and exotic tasks as sitting behind the controls in the Navigator's spire.

Also, there's the dramatic aspect to consider. How exciting is it really if every single PC on the ship is easily replaced even during mid game? What sort of group structure and dependancy can you really expect to form when Navigators, Astropaths, Arch-Militants, Seneschals and perhaps even Rogue Traders are really just "mook characters" who won't cause much drawback for the group if they die.

Remember that most groups of characters aren't in it "for the sake of being friends", they are in it because of entrepeneurship. They are in it to make money and secure their position in the enterprise that is called a dynasty. How is that possible when you basically have an infinite line of replacements standing behind you regardless of how exotic and alien your post aboard the ship is?

I don't know about you, but if the Navigator in my group suddenly suffers a fit of malicious space scurvy and find himself unable to navigate the vessel out of a hazardous situation, I'd find the gaming atmosphere to be pretty boring if the other players in the group all go: -"Ach! That's too bad Hans. You just take a sickday and we'll have Igor do the navigating for a couple of weeks instead of you."

The players are supposed to go: -"*gulp* Oh no. We're stuck in this mess without a navigator to help us out! We're screwed!!"

So, both from a dramatic standpoint and from a fluffviable standpoint I say that letting player groups start out with "spare" navigators and astropaths is a bad idea. Granted it would be a smart idea to get more of each of course, but it should require some effort in game, not just be handed over on a silver platter from the get go. Player groups in Rogue Trader already start out with extreme wealth, gadgets and an entire starship. There's no need to make life easy for them.

TraderJB said:

If I were a Navigator I'd be extremely reluctant to the prospect of having another Navigator aboard the vessel. Mainly because it drags down my importance aboard the vessel and my opinions among the other Explorers wouldn't be as valuable because if I happen to disagree over something and I make matters difficult when it comes to navigation if the others try to overrule me, the others could just ask the other Navigator to do what they want and basically just throw me in a cell or just ignore my opinions altogether.

In fact, I think most navigators would reason like this, because their entire family wealth is based upon the monopoly they maintain over starship travel. They shouldn't have any natural reason or inclination towards sharing their self importance and duties with anyone else.

Then there's also the fact that a second navigator might think the same way I would, and basically try to sabotage for me and make me lose stature in the group of Explorers. No one wants a malicious usurper on their back after all.

Anyhow, like I've said previously: im not opposed to the idea of the group getting spares for important stations aboard their vessel (or vessels if they have several), im just saying that it shouldn't be something that the players start out with from scratch. And even if they attempt to get spares, complications should accompany the potential benefits of having spares...

Sister Callidia said:

8 Hour shifts? That's very nice of the captain . . . I'd be thinking more like 15 hour shifts. Astropaths don't have long lives so best to get the most out of them while you can.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well, if you want to be fair to my position. I think the players should go "Oh no, Igor is going to do the navigating for a couple of weeks. I hope we don't end up in the middle of an Ork... Whoops, too late. Man the Macrobatteries."

Really at this point we are not arguing if the PCs are screwed when the Navigator dies, but how screwed are the PCs if the Navigator dies. Personally, I think it's more intersting to give them the option make short conservative jumps sans Navigator or to try their luck with the new guy.

I mean to crunch some numbers, a crew rating 30 navigator who rolls straight 50s for all his warp test will:

-have an inacurate estimate of how long the jouney will take

-take four times as long as "normal" to get their desination

-Get no bonus to the Warp Travel Enconters chart (which will have to be rolled on many times for the long jouney)

-Exit the warp dangerously (four degrees of success) off target

I think that's sufficently dramtic. Sorry if I didn't explain this fully enough before.