I think anything you personally don't like flying against is a crutch to most people.

Oh I hate imperial aces, boostwing is a crutch.

Oh I hate turrets, turretwing is a crutch.

Oh I hate extremely accurate alpha strikes, jumpmasterwing is a crutch.

Turns out someone will dislike most any singular element of the game so you'll find most things called a crutch depending on where you look and how hard you listen.

I think that's patronising and oversimplified, and basically wrong.

People don't like these things for a reason - because they feel they remove skill from the game. You can't simply apply that label to anything you don't like; you can easily apply that label to things that let you shoot perfectly well regardless of your positioning or that let you correct your positioning after seeing everybody else's.

But that is simply your opinion of what removes skill from the game, thus reinforcing my point. Some people think ps9 ships that boost remove skill from the game. Some people think torpedos giving 4 hits in a mega alpha strike removes skill from the game.

There's no universal definition of "skill" in xwing and as such any opinion can be formed about what adds or removes it to the game, coming back to the point of basically anything can and will be called a crutch when people don't like it because they think it removes 'skill'.

Sure, it's all opinion, but I think it's difficult to argue that not needing to predict your opponent's move isn't removing skill (you might still benefit from doing so, but it's a lot less crucial). Does it replace it with another skill requirement?

Sure, it's all opinion, but I think it's difficult to argue that not needing to predict your opponent's move isn't removing skill (you might still benefit from doing so, but it's a lot less crucial). Does it replace it with another skill requirement?

I think in general when the game is in a healthy state any choice which deemphasizes one game element emphasizes another in equal proportions.

For the example of a PWT, they're often large ships with bad agility so they deemphasize the aspect of getting an arc on someone and emphasize obstacle avoidance and managing how many guns are pointed at them. Likewise they usually cost 50% or more of a list and as such heavily emphasize list building because the other portions of their list have supplement such a big investment well.

Sure, it's all opinion, but I think it's difficult to argue that not needing to predict your opponent's move isn't removing skill (you might still benefit from doing so, but it's a lot less crucial). Does it replace it with another skill requirement?

I think in general when the game is in a healthy state any choice which deemphasizes one game element emphasizes another in equal proportions.

For the example of a PWT, they're often large ships with bad agility so they deemphasize the aspect of getting an arc on someone and emphasize obstacle avoidance and managing how many guns are pointed at them. Likewise they usually cost 50% or more of a list and as such heavily emphasize list building because the other portions of their list have supplement such a big investment well.

Meh, I dunno. As many people have said, one of the problems with large based turreted ships is that they're actually very manoeuvrable.

Anyway, my point is that "these two mechanics reduce the importance of manoeuvring thus reducing the required skill" is quite a specific complaint, a long way from just "anything they don't like", so you're in the wrong to just patronisingly brush people's opinions away like that.

Of course, that could be everything people dislike about the game, in which case your observation would be correct, but the implied causality would not be.

Before the MOV change, they sure as hell used to be.

You're simply wrong there.

The MoV had nothing to do with PWT it had everything to do with Fat ship's with good defense and a ton of Hull/Shields that could simply outlast the clock.

360 firing arcs is impossible, unless you're playing a 1000+ point game or something ridiculous like that.

yay another person focusing on semantics rather than taking the inference of the OP's thread and adding absolutely zero to the conversation.

Well done, you deserve a star.

Ooh! I've always wanted star!

You sound like you've had a horrible day. I usually atleast try to stay civil before moving on to being passive-agressive.

They did limit pwt to 2 dice

See: the glorious K

Crutch or no they are **** design

Hence why ffg has been making them either garbage (the ks PWT, it has to do other things to pull its weight ie BOMBS)

Or care about arc (dengar rey and torp scouts)

Or, finally, introducing what they always should have been via the Lancer

Given the abilities of HotR Han and Chewie I'd say FFG has reconsidered. None of them care about arc.

Before the MOV change, they sure as hell used to be.

You're simply wrong there.

The MoV had nothing to do with PWT it had everything to do with Fat ship's with good defense and a ton of Hull/Shields that could simply outlast the clock.

Yup, PWTs were simply the lynch-pin that made it so common. Why innovate, when you can fly a ship with ridiculous survivability, an all-star maneuver dial, AND the ability to fire outside its arc.

Are post move positioning (boost and barrel roll) crutches?

Before the MOV change, they sure as hell used to be.

You're simply wrong there.

The MoV had nothing to do with PWT it had everything to do with Fat ship's with good defense and a ton of Hull/Shields that could simply outlast the clock.

Actually he's more right than you are. The MOV took advantage of all that good defense and hull/shields because it allowed you to fortress your points. The MOV change is what killed the fat turret. TLTs, ordnance, connor nets, etc. just piled on the grave.

Oh please someone start a new topic asking if push the limit is a crutch I really want to see that but not brave enough to start it myself

They did limit pwt to 2 dice

See: the glorious K

Crutch or no they are **** design

Hence why ffg has been making them either garbage (the ks PWT, it has to do other things to pull its weight ie BOMBS)

Or care about arc (dengar rey and torp scouts)

Or, finally, introducing what they always should have been via the Lancer

Given the abilities of HotR Han and Chewie I'd say FFG has reconsidered. None of them care about arc.

Even Finn wont give you blank results without arc on your target first

Before the MOV change, they sure as hell used to be.

You're simply wrong there.

The MoV had nothing to do with PWT it had everything to do with Fat ship's with good defense and a ton of Hull/Shields that could simply outlast the clock.

They wouldn't last that long if they couldn't shoot anything, and therefore still had the entire opposition squad firing at them every turn.

Oh please someone start a new topic asking if push the limit is a crutch I really want to see that but not brave enough to start it myself

I think you just asked!

Depends what you do with it! If you do actions that enhance either your offence or defence, then yes.

So let's go back to "real" flying where we all bring swarms and just slam into each other.

So let's go back to "real" flying where we all bring swarms and just slam into each other.

But you cant SLAM without a k or large ship

A crutch? No.

But they are ******* boring to play, either with or against.

I'm sad that I don't play more my YTs because I dislike turrets rules. I hope we soon get something to turn them into mobile arcs.

Actually he's more right than you are.

No he's completely wrong, because you didn't need a PWT to fortress points.

The MOV change is what killed the fat turret.

The MoV change killed the fat turret, but did nothing to turrets themselves.

They wouldn't last that long if they couldn't shoot anything

And again, that has nothing to do with the PWT. It had everything to do with a lot of points on a ship that was very hard to kill. No different than a Imp Ace really.

They wouldn't last that long if they couldn't shoot anything

And again, that has nothing to do with the PWT. It had everything to do with a lot of points on a ship that was very hard to kill. No different than a Imp Ace really.

If it couldn't reliably deal damage then it wouldn't be hard to kill because it would have far more incoming attacks.

I disagree that turrets are boring to play as or against.

They are boring when both sides have them, much like a swarm vs swarm battle.

Swarm vs Turret are some of the most intense and interesting battles in my opinion. I've been on both sides of this battle and it is awesome from both sides. As the turret player, you are constantly on edge, attempting to stay ahead of the death ball while trying to whittle them down with single attacks. Meanwhile, the swarm is using its numerical superiority to try to wrangle the super inefficient turret into a bad position and just obliterate it with concentrated fire.

360 firing arcs is impossible, unless you're playing a 1000+ point game or something ridiculous like that.

yay another person focusing on semantics rather than taking the inference of the OP's thread and adding absolutely zero to the conversation. Well done, you deserve a star.

Ooh! I've always wanted star!You sound like you've had a horrible day. I usually atleast try to stay civil before moving on to being passive-agressive.

I simply don't see how you think I am being passive aggressive. There is nothing passive about it. I am more than happy to be civil to people who do not add pointless posts to a thread that has various opinions. What do you gain from posting what you posted? If it was an attempt at humour you fell well short of the goals. I actually have had a great day, I have started 2 weeks holidays, Wave 9 will be out soon and I have all the time in the world to put into the hobby.

360 firing arcs is impossible, unless you're playing a 1000+ point game or something ridiculous like that.

yay another person focusing on semantics rather than taking the inference of the OP's thread and adding absolutely zero to the conversation. Well done, you deserve a star.

Ooh! I've always wanted star!You sound like you've had a horrible day. I usually atleast try to stay civil before moving on to being passive-agressive.

I simply don't see how you think I am being passive aggressive. There is nothing passive about it. I am more than happy to be civil to people who do not add pointless posts to a thread that has various opinions. What do you gain from posting what you posted? If it was an attempt at humour you fell well short of the goals. I actually have had a great day, I have started 2 weeks holidays, Wave 9 will be out soon and I have all the time in the world to put into the hobby.

Yet you keep making pointless posts about pointless posts. What do you gain from posting what you posted? Also I would argue semantics are very important in rules. If there were 360 arc ships, things would work totally differently.

I disagree that turrets are boring to play as or against.

They are boring when both sides have them, much like a swarm vs swarm battle.

Swarm vs Turret are some of the most intense and interesting battles in my opinion. I've been on both sides of this battle and it is awesome from both sides. As the turret player, you are constantly on edge, attempting to stay ahead of the death ball while trying to whittle them down with single attacks. Meanwhile, the swarm is using its numerical superiority to try to wrangle the super inefficient turret into a bad position and just obliterate it with concentrated fire.

True, but that doesn't really disprove that turrets aren't crutches. That really depends on the progression of the player I think. If it's a new person just starting the game, a turret could actually be a learning aid so they can learn the mechanics without having to worry about firing arcs, but once a person is more familiar with the game, a person is handicapping themselves by not learning how to read their opponent.

I would not say the 360 turret is any more of a crutch then PTL on aces is. Its a game mechanic built in to allow bigger ships to defend themselves due to the likelihood of being outnumbered or out maneuvered. It requires a different style of flying than usual so that requires some form of alternate strategy and above all else Autothrusters has all but made them useless unless at range 1.

If i ever see a player put down for playing PWT ships or even Y Wings on the basis of skill i'm always quick to remind them that loading tokens with stress or boosting/rolling out of arc in an obvious situation does not make you any better.

Honestly just about anything that gets serious competitive play could be considered a "crutch", but at the end of the day its just a buzz word thrown around to try and guilt people for taking X or Y.

I would not say the 360 turret is any more of a crutch then PTL on aces is. Its a game mechanic built in to allow bigger ships to defend themselves due to the likelihood of being outnumbered or out maneuvered. It requires a different style of flying than usual so that requires some form of alternate strategy and above all else Autothrusters has all but made them useless unless at range 1.

If i ever see a player put down for playing PWT ships or even Y Wings on the basis of skill i'm always quick to remind them that loading tokens with stress or boosting/rolling out of arc in an obvious situation does not make you any better.

Honestly just about anything that gets serious competitive play could be considered a "crutch", but at the end of the day its just a buzz word thrown around to try and guilt people for taking X or Y.

TBH, Arc-dodgers, Regeners, Turrets, etc. are all a crutch to some extant. The only thing that isn't really a crutch is jousting.

I would not say the 360 turret is any more of a crutch then PTL on aces is. Its a game mechanic built in to allow bigger ships to defend themselves due to the likelihood of being outnumbered or out maneuvered. It requires a different style of flying than usual so that requires some form of alternate strategy and above all else Autothrusters has all but made them useless unless at range 1.

If i ever see a player put down for playing PWT ships or even Y Wings on the basis of skill i'm always quick to remind them that loading tokens with stress or boosting/rolling out of arc in an obvious situation does not make you any better.

Honestly just about anything that gets serious competitive play could be considered a "crutch", but at the end of the day its just a buzz word thrown around to try and guilt people for taking X or Y.

TBH, Arc-dodgers, Regeners, Turrets, etc. are all a crutch to some extant. The only thing that isn't really a crutch is jousting.

Agreed.

Even jousters could be argued to be easy to play. I just think its players not willing to change their strategy when facing different opponents who blame these "crutches". if they are flying regen you need to focus fire. If they are flying aces you need to block. if you are facing jousters you need to flank/ drag them through asteroids....and so on.

It's the list building run by the playbook player who gets annoyed when they were not able to do what they wanted their list to do because opponents have crutch X.

Don't get me wrong, the different archetypes each tend to have their day in the sun, but ultimately the skill required to fly each of them is fairly comparable in my opinion.

I don't think its so much the turret but their maneuverability and speed. A 2400 that's as agile as an X-Wing? A freighter being able to barrel roll and an A-Wing can't? Come on!

Dash with the HLC is a pain to kill. Not just because of the turret but against certain small based ships he wins the drag race. He wins the race, keeping the small based ship at r2-r3. Unless you have some ordnance to extend your reach and kill the r3 bonus you're in for a long night.

I understand the need for different dials and stats. If there's no difference but the model where's the fun or challenge in that?

Keep in mid that large based ships even though their maneuvers may be the same the size of their base is enough to make the maneuver different. A YT-1300 cannot go as slow as an X-wing.

Now that being said I do find it odd that FFG has decided to give many large based ships a 1 hard turn that wasn't red.