*wrings hands in glee* this topic has turned all manner of interesting!

My main point was not that nothing is OP. My point was quit complaining and work instead to find counters.

Never tought the thread would go this far and turn this interesting!

I dont consider them OP, I know how to handle Rhymer and Demolisher and have beaten good players who use them.

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

Boring to you, perhaps, but your boredom is not my concern. I for one have incredible fun zipping about with Demo and spewing black dice all over the rebel scum.

And no, I don't limit myself...lol. I've played without Demo quite a few times, and done well enough. But!! Hehe..,,I love the silly ship.

As for Rhymer, I either use him or not....lol. Not particular either way. You know my feelings about squadrons.

Boring to you, perhaps, but your boredom is not my concern. I for one have incredible fun zipping about with Demo and spewing black dice all over the rebel scum.

And no, I don't limit myself...lol. I've played without Demo quite a few times, and done well enough. But!! Hehe..,,I love the silly ship.

As for Rhymer, I either use him or not....lol. Not particular either way. You know my feelings about squadrons.

Sounds like you need stronger opponents

I dont consider them OP, I know how to handle Rhymer and Demolisher and have beaten good players who use them.

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

You know... this quote doesn't really fit what you're always saying...

Arn't you always advocating that players should experiment and not discount a ship before trying it out first? Didn't you just created a thread about one week ago exactly to tell people that there is other options for Imperial players than Demo and Rhymer? Shouldn't you be excited by the challenge to come up with a winning list that doesn't include either of these ship/squadron? A challenge is never boring.

I dont consider them OP, I know how to handle Rhymer and Demolisher and have beaten good players who use them.

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

You know... this quote doesn't really fit what you're always saying...

Arn't you always advocating that players should experiment and not discount a ship before trying it out first? Didn't you just created a thread about one week ago exactly to tell people that there is other options for Imperial players than Demo and Rhymer? Shouldn't you be excited by the challenge to come up with a winning list that doesn't include either of these ship/squadron? A challenge is never boring.

There is no challenge and thus boring.

It sounds crass but I know I am not alone with this feeling.

So can us Imperials make a thread challenging Rebels to play with no Yavaris? or Rieekan?

So can us Imperials make a thread challenging Rebels to play with no Yavaris? or Rieekan?

Sure, we said earlier that you could.

But we also pointed out that you'd get a lot more shrugs, because generally speaking, Rebel upgrades in use are less ubiquitous than Demolisher and/or Rhymer for the Imperials.

Or maybe Imperials moan less?

I see Yavaris and Rieekan way way more than I see Demolisher at tournaments.

Or maybe Imperials moan less?

I see Yavaris and Rieekan way way more than I see Demolisher at tournaments.

Of course they Moan less. They've got the "Good Stuff"

Boring to you, perhaps, but your boredom is not my concern. I for one have incredible fun zipping about with Demo and spewing black dice all over the rebel scum.

And no, I don't limit myself...lol. I've played without Demo quite a few times, and done well enough. But!! Hehe..,,I love the silly ship.

As for Rhymer, I either use him or not....lol. Not particular either way. You know my feelings about squadrons.

Sounds like you need stronger opponents

Why, because I can play without Demo and do well? Has nothing to do with stronger opponents. Some of my opposition have been players that I consider to be of an incredibly high caliber. Some not so....but that is the way it is, specially at tourneys. You never know what you are going to face.

I try to always have a list that can handle a variety of situations, but as we have discussed before, pretty much ALL my lists are based around my particular, extremely aggressive-I-will-be-in-your-face-by-turn-two approach. I have been playing wargames since I was 12 (I am now a venerable 50) and always, always I have been the Blitz kind of player. It has served me well over the years.

Mind you.... were I to sully my hands by flying Rebel scum (no offense, Dras or other Reb players, gotta keep in character here!) I would definitely favor a more cautious approach. After all, one must adapt your tactics to the tools at hand. And Reb ships (with the possible exception of Liberty) just do not lend themselves to the charge and **** the torpedoes approach, while the Imperials, if flown skillfully, most definitely do.

Like I tell everyone I play with.... speed and maneuver, speed and maneuver. Keys to victory. Not the VSD, tough, that thing steers like a cow..lol.

By the way, I am loving me some Firesprays. Now those may find a permanent home in my lists.

I say this because I face strong opposition with their Demolisher's and their Rhymer's and I have no issue.

I know we both consider each other strong opponents so for us it is a toss up.

Just try playing without Demolisher. I am curious what would happen if you took my challenge. How would you do. . . Would those strong players become insurmountable? Hmmmm interesting

I say this because I face strong opposition with their Demolisher's and their Rhymer's and I have no issue.

I know we both consider each other strong opponents so for us it is a toss up.

Just try playing without Demolisher. I am curious what would happen if you took my challenge. How would you do. . . Would those strong players become insurmountable? Hmmmm interesting

Reread my post....I stated I HAVE played without Demo. Knowing I was not going to be using it, I of course tailored my battlegroup and tactics accordingly, and was successful. Last game I played was ISD, Interdictor and Gozanti with a sprinkling of Firesprays to taste. Win. I was forced to fly a bit slower than my usual due to the Interdictor's less than stellar speed, but I managed, hehe.

Demo to me is far from auto include in this current meta, and far from something I use in every single list. But again my point is.....its fun to use, at least to me, so why not? Lol. And in a tourney setting, I would bring of course whatever I thought was going to be the most effective and deadly. This would not apply in a casual game of course, in which case I would bring whatever I wanted to experiment with, no matter how useless.....

I dont consider them OP, I know how to handle Rhymer and Demolisher and have beaten good players who use them.

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

You know... this quote doesn't really fit what you're always saying...

Arn't you always advocating that players should experiment and not discount a ship before trying it out first? Didn't you just created a thread about one week ago exactly to tell people that there is other options for Imperial players than Demo and Rhymer? Shouldn't you be excited by the challenge to come up with a winning list that doesn't include either of these ship/squadron? A challenge is never boring.

Sure but there is no inspiration for an imperial list. The lists are too easy in my opinion

There is no challenge and thus boring.

It sounds crass but I know I am not alone with this feeling.

So you're blaming Demolisher and Rhymer for your lack of creativity?

I personally think that the versatility and differences between both versions of the Imperial Star Destroyer gives a lot of inspiration alone (Brawler, sniper, Carrier). I find that the lack of red dice from the Raider is a good challenge in itself to use properly, as is the lack of maneuvrability of the Victory. Or just how to best exploit the control the Interdictor can bring to the table.

You can build a lot of fun and competitive Imperial list without taking Demo or Rhymer... unless you volontarily shoehorn yourself into thinking that you must take them to be competitive. And that is entirely on you, not the ships themselves.

I dont consider them OP, I know how to handle Rhymer and Demolisher and have beaten good players who use them.

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

You know... this quote doesn't really fit what you're always saying...

Arn't you always advocating that players should experiment and not discount a ship before trying it out first? Didn't you just created a thread about one week ago exactly to tell people that there is other options for Imperial players than Demo and Rhymer? Shouldn't you be excited by the challenge to come up with a winning list that doesn't include either of these ship/squadron? A challenge is never boring.

Sure but there is no inspiration for an imperial list. The lists are too easy in my opinion

There is no challenge and thus boring.

It sounds crass but I know I am not alone with this feeling.

So you're blaming Demolisher and Rhymer for your lack of creativity?

I personally think that the versatility and differences between both versions of the Imperial Star Destroyer gives a lot of inspiration alone (Brawler, sniper, Carrier). I find that the lack of red dice from the Raider is a good challenge in itself to use properly, as is the lack of maneuvrability of the Victory. Or just how to best exploit the control the Interdictor can bring to the table.

You can build a lot of fun and competitive Imperial list without taking Demo or Rhymer... unless you volontarily shoehorn yourself into thinking that you must take them to be competitive. And that is entirely on you, not the ships themselves.

Lack of creativity? Interesting words to use. I guess you dont see many of my lists.

I thrive at inspiration and flow from there and Imperials just dont inspire me. The squadrons are not challenging, the ships while have different variations dont really want to use many of them. Traveling too far down one road means that they are far less flexible

It would be hard to think of a meta where demo would not be almost auto-include if the point block is available.

It would be hard to think of a meta where demo would not be almost auto-include if the point block is available.

A meta where gladiators are bad?

Edit: Nevermind, someone beat me to it by quite a bit, it seems.

I dont consider them OP, I know how to handle Rhymer and Demolisher and have beaten good players who use them.

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

You know... this quote doesn't really fit what you're always saying...

Arn't you always advocating that players should experiment and not discount a ship before trying it out first? Didn't you just created a thread about one week ago exactly to tell people that there is other options for Imperial players than Demo and Rhymer? Shouldn't you be excited by the challenge to come up with a winning list that doesn't include either of these ship/squadron? A challenge is never boring.

Sure but there is no inspiration for an imperial list. The lists are too easy in my opinion

There is no challenge and thus boring.

It sounds crass but I know I am not alone with this feeling.

So you're blaming Demolisher and Rhymer for your lack of creativity?

I personally think that the versatility and differences between both versions of the Imperial Star Destroyer gives a lot of inspiration alone (Brawler, sniper, Carrier). I find that the lack of red dice from the Raider is a good challenge in itself to use properly, as is the lack of maneuvrability of the Victory. Or just how to best exploit the control the Interdictor can bring to the table.

You can build a lot of fun and competitive Imperial list without taking Demo or Rhymer... unless you volontarily shoehorn yourself into thinking that you must take them to be competitive. And that is entirely on you, not the ships themselves.

Lack of creativity? Interesting words to use. I guess you dont see many of my lists.

I thrive at inspiration and flow from there and Imperials just dont inspire me. The squadrons are not challenging, the ships while have different variations dont really want to use many of them. Traveling too far down one road means that they are far less flexible

So your problem is with the Imperials not being to your taste, this I can get behind. I also know some players that think the same thing about the rebels. Both faction are different, so it's only natural that some players favour one over the other. I'm lucky that I find both faction interesting and inspiring.

But it has nothing to do with Demolisher and Rhymer, because there is other options in the Imperial faction. I fail to see how someone can think that Imperial list building is boring just because those two units exist (like you implied earlier). Find it boring because you don't like the Imperial in general, yes. Boring because the Demolisher and Rhymer exist, no. It's entirely up to you to take them or not, unless you are saying that the Imperial have no other options. In that case, I suggest that you speak with Pt106 who won 2 Regionals with an Imperial list without neither of those ships.

So can us Imperials make a thread challenging Rebels to play with no Yavaris? or Rieekan?

Sure, we said earlier that you could.

But we also pointed out that you'd get a lot more shrugs, because generally speaking, Rebel upgrades in use are less ubiquitous than Demolisher and/or Rhymer for the Imperials.

I suspect that with the shiny new upgrades from Wave3/4, Yavaris will see as much table, if not more so, than Rhymer do for the Imperials. She will be a staple for the squadron heavy rebel builds just like Rhymer is for the Empire.

Nah, she got a boost, to be sure - but she's still a Nebulon B.

And I say that as one of the biggest Neb-B fans here...

The difference is... Rhymer is easy. You put him down, and he does his thing. Don't worry about order of things, don't worry about getting things right, he just does his thing...

Demolisher is almost as easy, because he takes away one of the trickier concepts - Shoot than move...

Yavaris, well, yavaris is Tricky, and although she gained some tricks, those tricks are just as tricky....... Yavaris is never *easy* to use. It involves a lot of moving parts to come toether to get any benefit out of it.

And at the end of the day, you're putting more points on... a Nebulon B.

And I say this as one of the single biggest Neb-B fans on these forums...

It will never get as popular for the Rebels, as Rhymer or Demolisher is for the Imperials. because there's even competition for the Nebulon B.

I mean, Demolisher has no competition. What, Insidious, give me a break..

But yavaris has the competition in Salvation...

If Yavaris was ever going to be as popular as Rhymer or Demolisher, it would have happened.

=

Is pretty much what I'm getting from this thread.

(and I don't even like that band)

(that's right, I said I don't like Tool)

Tool? Never heard of her.

Also: Training is a crutch for those who lack talent.

i may have to break out the popcorn

Nah, she got a boost, to be sure - but she's still a Nebulon B.

And I say that as one of the biggest Neb-B fans here...

The difference is... Rhymer is easy. You put him down, and he does his thing. Don't worry about order of things, don't worry about getting things right, he just does his thing...

Demolisher is almost as easy, because he takes away one of the trickier concepts - Shoot than move...

Yavaris, well, yavaris is Tricky, and although she gained some tricks, those tricks are just as tricky....... Yavaris is never *easy* to use. It involves a lot of moving parts to come toether to get any benefit out of it.

And at the end of the day, you're putting more points on... a Nebulon B.

And I say this as one of the single biggest Neb-B fans on these forums...

It will never get as popular for the Rebels, as Rhymer or Demolisher is for the Imperials. because there's even competition for the Nebulon B.

I mean, Demolisher has no competition. What, Insidious, give me a break..

But yavaris has the competition in Salvation...

Time will tell, but I don't think it's a coincidence that both finalist of the Armada Vassal tournament included Yavaris in their rebel squadron heavy list.

I also played 6 games with her since Wave 3-4 and she is just that good. That's actually the first time that I saw my opponents feel so powerless, and that's not just in one game, but most of them. She is not that tricky to use and when used correctly, she can bring a total of 3 Red, 6 Black and 6 Blue, most with rerolls; that should kill pretty much anything or cripple it so much that it is only a matter of time before another ship finish the job.

Yes, she's very vulnerable as a Neb, but just like the Demolisher, her job is to destroy your opponent biggest threat and trade herself back in the process. She's only worth 68 pts. In my 6 games, I lost her 5 times but never regretted bringing her in because she always pays for herself. She even bring a kind of control of the battle because your opponent will want to get rid of her ASAP, or stay as far away as possible.

If Yavaris was ever going to be as popular as Rhymer or Demolisher, it would have happened.

No, that's where I disagree with you. Wave 3-4 did a lot to boost Yavaris strenght. Before Wave 3-4, I would have never made that kind of comment. There was a couple of big drawback that kept Yavaris from being a staple for rebels squadron heavy list.

-She didn't have a lot of range to give her commands. Because she could not equip a Boosted Comms, your squadrons needed to be in medium range of Yavaris prior to her activation, that doesn't cover a lot of ground.

-Your squadrons had to be already in position when Yavaris activated.

-Bombers had no rerolls so you were still at the mercy of the dice.

-B-Wings are very slow!

Wave 3-4 just so happen to paliate for all those limitations. You can now command the squadrons after your movement; you can move the squadron distance 1 before giving the command; You now have a couple of ways to reroll your bomber's dice; And B-Wing now move faster than distance 2 with the help of FCT.

Time will tell, but I don't think it's a coincidence that both finalist of the Armada Vassal tournament included Yavaris in their rebel squadron heavy list.

But this Armada Vassal Finalist is altering his list on the basis of how the games played out. Its not that wise to judge on the honeymoon period alone. The MC80 has received a much greater boost than yavaris. No more small blocking ships, as Bwings just blast through and now have the speed to keep up.

MC80 Command Cruiser

Admiral Ackbar

Flight Commander

Fighter Coordination Teams

Advanced Projectors

Home One

Cr90A

Toryn Farr

Turbo Laser Reroute Circuits

Jainas Lights

Cr90A

Turbo Laser Reroute Circuits

Gr75 Medium Transport

Leia Organa

Boosted Comms

Bomber Command Centre

Bright Hope

Bwing

Bwing

Bwing

Bwing

Bwing

Jan Orrs

Hwk290

410pts