Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

And do each of those change a core mechanic with such a low drawback?

Is Yavaris as fast or survivable as a GSD? Dodonna happens sometimes and is not used every turn like Demolisher can and is more times than not. Mothma Modifies a rule not changes it. Raymus Modifies the rule not changes, Luke requires that you actually hit, Rogue's can be engaged.

The ONLY way to stop Demolisher is to kill it. That is it. It has no inherent drawbacks. 10 points is not a drawback, just a small tax.

What's Mon Mothmas drawback?

Don't get dragged into his misdirection. His original claim was that only Rhymer and Demolisher are core changes. Now he's moving the goalposts to 'core changes with a low drawback'.

He could be right about them being the only special rules that significantly alter core gameplay mechanics, I just don't really see why that's a problem. If it's unbalanced, sure.

Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

And do each of those change a core mechanic with such a low drawback?

Is Yavaris as fast or survivable as a GSD? Dodonna happens sometimes and is not used every turn like Demolisher can and is more times than not. Mothma Modifies a rule not changes it. Raymus Modifies the rule not changes, Luke requires that you actually hit, Rogue's can be engaged.

The ONLY way to stop Demolisher is to kill it. That is it. It has no inherent drawbacks. 10 points is not a drawback, just a small tax.

What's Mon Mothmas drawback?

Could be that it only works with evades, and that it is 30 points so what. . . . 13% of your list

Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

And do each of those change a core mechanic with such a low drawback?

Is Yavaris as fast or survivable as a GSD? Dodonna happens sometimes and is not used every turn like Demolisher can and is more times than not. Mothma Modifies a rule not changes it. Raymus Modifies the rule not changes, Luke requires that you actually hit, Rogue's can be engaged.

The ONLY way to stop Demolisher is to kill it. That is it. It has no inherent drawbacks. 10 points is not a drawback, just a small tax.

What's Mon Mothmas drawback?

Could be that it only works with evades, and that it is 30 points so what. . . . 13% of your list

So, it has a cost, like everything, and... "it only works with evades" is a drawback? That's like saying only working on offence is a drawback of attack dice, or only working in the air is a drawback of planes. A drawback is a cost to taking it, something you lose, not merely the state of not being absolutely everything you could ever want.

Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

And do each of those change a core mechanic with such a low drawback?

Is Yavaris as fast or survivable as a GSD? Dodonna happens sometimes and is not used every turn like Demolisher can and is more times than not. Mothma Modifies a rule not changes it. Raymus Modifies the rule not changes, Luke requires that you actually hit, Rogue's can be engaged.

The ONLY way to stop Demolisher is to kill it. That is it. It has no inherent drawbacks. 10 points is not a drawback, just a small tax.

What's Mon Mothmas drawback?

Could be that it only works with evades, and that it is 30 points so what. . . . 13% of your list

So, it has a cost, like everything, and... "it only works with evades" is a drawback? That's like saying only working on offence is a drawback of attack dice, or only working in the air is a drawback of planes. A drawback is a cost to taking it, something you lose, not merely the state of not being absolutely everything you could ever want.

You cant use Mothma for either of the MC80's, also if you lose all of your evades then you dont have mothma.

Mothma requires that you build a list around her. Demolisher and Rhymer do not. It helps to do so but as gencon showed Top 8 being comprised of Demolisher players and 1 Rebel. 7 of the top 8. Lets not mention that Top 4 was all Demolisher players and the winner and 2nd place both had Demo and Rhymer.

That is called statistics.

Don't get dragged into his misdirection. His original claim was that only Rhymer and Demolisher are core changes. Now he's moving the goalposts to 'core changes with a low drawback'.

Please quote me on where I said "only Rhymer and Demolisher are core changes"

That is called data. Statistics requires more data than that.

Someone please beat me senseless with a crutch.

Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

And do each of those change a core mechanic with such a low drawback?

Is Yavaris as fast or survivable as a GSD? Dodonna happens sometimes and is not used every turn like Demolisher can and is more times than not. Mothma Modifies a rule not changes it. Raymus Modifies the rule not changes, Luke requires that you actually hit, Rogue's can be engaged.

The ONLY way to stop Demolisher is to kill it. That is it. It has no inherent drawbacks. 10 points is not a drawback, just a small tax.

What's Mon Mothmas drawback?

Could be that it only works with evades, and that it is 30 points so what. . . . 13% of your list

So, it has a cost, like everything, and... "it only works with evades" is a drawback? That's like saying only working on offence is a drawback of attack dice, or only working in the air is a drawback of planes. A drawback is a cost to taking it, something you lose, not merely the state of not being absolutely everything you could ever want.

You cant use Mothma for either of the MC80's, also if you lose all of your evades then you dont have mothma.

Mothma requires that you build a list around her. Demolisher and Rhymer do not. It helps to do so but as gencon showed Top 8 being comprised of Demolisher players and 1 Rebel. 7 of the top 8. Lets not mention that Top 4 was all Demolisher players and the winner and 2nd place both had Demo and Rhymer.

That is called statistics.

Don't get dragged into his misdirection. His original claim was that only Rhymer and Demolisher are core changes. Now he's moving the goalposts to 'core changes with a low drawback'.

Please quote me on where I said "only Rhymer and Demolisher are core changes"

Right, she has limits. Limits aren't the same as drawbacks. Can't go into space isn't a drawback of an Aston Martin.

The only drawbacks of Mon Mothma are the cost and the slot.

I've been arguing semantics for a while now, I've forgotten what we're actually discussing.

I have to say watching these discussions is interesting but in the end FFG isn't listening to the forums for advice, they watch the tournaments. And we already have seen new upgrades and commanders that give buffs to models that are lackluster. (Hello VSD) So people will argue one side or the other but FFG is fully aware of the issues with their current models and they are working on it as we speak. Will they Nerf or give us counters to these under costed models? Not sure myself but a change is coming and no discussion is going to stop it. FFG has proven time and again that if players abuse a flawed rule from a model they will absolutely address it. Armada has fewer tournaments compared to X-Wing so data will take time but change is coming.

Now we will see if people will accept the change with dignity or will they whine like kids who had their favorite toy broken? That's what I'm waiting for.

That is called data. Statistics requires more data than that.

Someone please beat me senseless with a crutch.

If I had time for a Vassal game I'd play you using Rhymer and Demo.

*wrings hands in glee* this topic has turned all manner of interesting!

My main point was not that nothing is OP. My point was quit complaining and work instead to find counters.

Never tought the thread would go this far and turn this interesting!

Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

And do each of those change a core mechanic with such a low drawback?

Is Yavaris as fast or survivable as a GSD? Dodonna happens sometimes and is not used every turn like Demolisher can and is more times than not. Mothma Modifies a rule not changes it. Raymus Modifies the rule not changes, Luke requires that you actually hit, Rogue's can be engaged.

The ONLY way to stop Demolisher is to kill it. That is it. It has no inherent drawbacks. 10 points is not a drawback, just a small tax.

What's Mon Mothmas drawback?

Could be that it only works with evades, and that it is 30 points so what. . . . 13% of your list

So, it has a cost, like everything, and... "it only works with evades" is a drawback? That's like saying only working on offence is a drawback of attack dice, or only working in the air is a drawback of planes. A drawback is a cost to taking it, something you lose, not merely the state of not being absolutely everything you could ever want.

You cant use Mothma for either of the MC80's, also if you lose all of your evades then you dont have mothma.

Mothma requires that you build a list around her. Demolisher and Rhymer do not. It helps to do so but as gencon showed Top 8 being comprised of Demolisher players and 1 Rebel. 7 of the top 8. Lets not mention that Top 4 was all Demolisher players and the winner and 2nd place both had Demo and Rhymer.

That is called statistics.

Don't get dragged into his misdirection. His original claim was that only Rhymer and Demolisher are core changes. Now he's moving the goalposts to 'core changes with a low drawback'.

Please quote me on where I said "only Rhymer and Demolisher are core changes"

Right, she has limits. Limits aren't the same as drawbacks. Can't go into space isn't a drawback of an Aston Martin.

The only drawbacks of Mon Mothma are the cost and the slot.

I've been arguing semantics for a while now, I've forgotten what we're actually discussing.

Limits are drawbacks.

*wrings hands in glee* this topic has turned all manner of interesting!

My main point was not that nothing is OP. My point was quit complaining and work instead to find counters.

Never tought the thread would go this far and turn this interesting!

I dont consider them OP, I know how to handle Rhymer and Demolisher and have beaten good players who use them.

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

"My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate."

I can get behind this. Wave 5 should help on both sides. No longer need Demo, or having another option to kill Demo.

I have to say watching these discussions is interesting but in the end FFG isn't listening to the forums for advice, they watch the tournaments.

You know thats not true right.... they literally told schmitty that they read these forums...

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

Limits are drawbacks.

You think? As I understand the word, a drawback is a property of something that is worse than not having it, whereas a limit is just a lack of advantage. So a sword that electrocutes me while I use it is a drawback because if I don't have a sword then I don't get electrocuted (of course I lose the benefits too - that's the cost/benefit analysis). A laser musket that only gets a +50% damage bonus against mirelurks is a limit, because I'm no worse with it than without it.

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

I mean, to put this into perspective, as of Wave 4 there are only six different Imperial models. There are only 17 different squad cards. So it is not like we have been choosing from like 100 different things.

Sure, you dont have a hundred different things and the rebels have a grand total of 1 ship more than the imperials. . . before it was just 4 ships so it was understandable to a small degree.

Limits are drawbacks.

You think? As I understand the word, a drawback is a property of something that is worse than not having it, whereas a limit is just a lack of advantage. So a sword that electrocutes me while I use it is a drawback because if I don't have a sword then I don't get electrocuted (of course I lose the benefits too - that's the cost/benefit analysis). A laser musket that only gets a +50% damage bonus against mirelurks is a limit, because I'm no worse with it than without it.

Fine, fine, What about Demolisher, what is its drawback? Rhymer is obviously the Range 1 but that is negligible

My issue is that they have almost become the end all be all of an imperial list and make building imperial lists so boring to even contemplate.

I mean, to put this into perspective, as of Wave 4 there are only six different Imperial models. There are only 17 different squad cards. So it is not like we have been choosing from like 100 different things.

Sure, you dont have a hundred different things and the rebels have a grand total of 1 ship more than the imperials. . . before it was just 4 ships so it was understandable to a small degree.

I'd say Rebles have 1.5 more ships than Imps. Victory isn't that great unless you use it as a carrier. And then you take Rhymer. And then everyone hates you cuz you're on crutches. And you can't walk cuz everyone makes you feel bad for your crutches. But what about Rebel crutches like TRC and Rieekan? Looks like double standards to me...

But hey, I'm drinking.

I have to say watching these discussions is interesting but in the end FFG isn't listening to the forums for advice, they watch the tournaments.

You know thats not true right.... they literally told schmitty that they read these forums...

Either a change will come because of Imperial lists starting to look the same after the new waves then FFG will definitely step in and change that. No ship or upgrade should be an auto include, it's bad for the game and business.

I'm not new to the forums and have been watching a lot, but maybe that person was told they watch the forums, which they do for new ship ideas, but when it comes to Nerfing an existing product I am not that sure they do. But I know they are not ignorant to the situation and something will come about, but it most likely will be counters in future expansions. But I don't play power fanatics that bring the same power list every time so I'm not as worried as others here. I just play for fun now days.

FFG is in the business to sell models, not just watch people play the same one over and over in every list. They're not GW.

Really? Because when the whole Phantom fiasco was going on FFG said they were following the Tournament results and getting their data there. So which is it? Or is it both?

Which one was last Month, and thus, the most Recent?

I figure that's probably the one to go by.

But I also doubt they're willing to just dismiss any line of inquiry, if they are actually gathering intel...

Limits are drawbacks.

You think? As I understand the word, a drawback is a property of something that is worse than not having it, whereas a limit is just a lack of advantage. So a sword that electrocutes me while I use it is a drawback because if I don't have a sword then I don't get electrocuted (of course I lose the benefits too - that's the cost/benefit analysis). A laser musket that only gets a +50% damage bonus against mirelurks is a limit, because I'm no worse with it than without it.

Fine, fine, What about Demolisher, what is its drawback? Rhymer is obviously the Range 1 but that is negligible

Dunno. What does Demolisher do?

I'm just gonna leave this right here... and on every crutch thread for the next, oh, forever.

I'm just gonna leave this right here... and on every crutch thread for the next, oh, forever.

They should be holding crutches...

Artistic facepalm...

I'm just gonna leave this right here... and on every crutch thread for the next, oh, forever.

They should be holding crutches...

What is dead can never die. It is known...