Rhymer and Demolisher both break huge Core Mechanics.

Yavaris, Jaina, Dutch, Admonition, Foresight, Gallant Haven, Jan Orrs, Paragon, Defiance..... all break the "core" rules.

I have no real point here, but the wording of that argument annoys me.

Man, if you can't see the huge, obvious difference in game impact between Demolisher/Rhymer and everything else you listed, I'm not sure where to go with a conversation. I mean, I know that you deftly defeated him in verbal combat, but that wasn't really the point of his comment, was it?

Are Ryhmer and Demolisher considered OP then? I haven't played much Armada, but I did find Demolisher extremely scary when I faced him, but Rhymer didn't seem too bad. Powerful, certainly, I'd always take him if I was focused on bombing, but not game breakingly so.

Rhymer and Demolisher both break huge Core Mechanics.

Yavaris, Jaina, Dutch, Admonition, Foresight, Gallant Haven, Jan Orrs, Paragon, Defiance..... all break the "core" rules.

I have no real point here, but the wording of that argument annoys me.

Man, if you can't see the huge, obvious difference in game impact between Demolisher/Rhymer and everything else you listed, I'm not sure where to go with a conversation. I mean, I know that you deftly defeated him in verbal combat, but that wasn't really the point of his comment, was it?

I'm gunna have to back Gink on this one. During wave 1, yes Demo was pretty bad. And don't forget all the hate on Ackbar when it first came out. And now we have BCC, FC, and FCT. How long before we complain about how broken that is with Yavaris? FFG is going to keep releasing stuff that will "break/alter" the mechanics of the game. It just so happens Rhymer and Demo have been in like every Imp list since wave 1 (obviously exaggerating but kind of not).

If there is something a group of people don't like, aka Ackbar, people will want it nerfed/call it a crutch until they learn to deal with it.

Rhymer and Demolisher both break huge Core Mechanics.

Yavaris, Jaina, Dutch, Admonition, Foresight, Gallant Haven, Jan Orrs, Paragon, Defiance..... all break the "core" rules.

I have no real point here, but the wording of that argument annoys me.

...maybe because there is a difference between a Core Mechanic and the 'Rules'.

Please provide a referenced list of the "core mechanics" please.

Yes those are sarcasm quotation marks.

Shoot and then Moving is a Core Mechanic.

Adding in an additional use for your Defense Tokens is a rule.

Squadron attack distance is a Core Mechanic.

Ignoring an obstruction is a core rule.

If the Rebels suddenly got a commander that allowed Critical effects to be used with any color dice, how many strafing MC30 builds would we suddenly see?

I don't think any of the rebel cards listed break the core mechanics/game concepts (in this case shoot then move for ships and squadrons having to get close to shoot). They have powerful effects (some more than others) but not game changing ones. If I was looking for a rebel example of changing core mechanics then Sato would probably serve. Black dice and Crit effects at long range could be considered breaking the core mechanics in a way that Defiance doesn't. However I'm still not sure that it does so to the same extent that Demo/Rhymer do.

Shoot and then Moving is a Core Mechanic.

Reference for this?

I'm gunna have to back Gink on this one. During wave 1, yes Demo was pretty bad. And don't forget all the hate on Ackbar when it first came out. And now we have BCC, FC, and FCT. How long before we complain about how broken that is with Yavaris? FFG is going to keep releasing stuff that will "break/alter" the mechanics of the game. It just so happens Rhymer and Demo have been in like every Imp list since wave 1 (obviously exaggerating but kind of not).

If there is something a group of people don't like, aka Ackbar, people will want it nerfed/call it a crutch until they learn to deal with it.

Bomber Command Center adds in rules not breaks anything, Flight Commander Does modify a core rule, and FCT's adds in a new rule.

So the only one there that is modifying anything is Flight Commander. So I don't really see the issue since it takes all 3 to create a strong combination and that is 14 points and that doesn't include the base ships needed. Hmmmmm That seems balanced. Add on that they are actually fragile ships and a Demolisher is not as fragile. . . yea. . .

Shoot and then Moving is a Core Mechanic.

Reference for this?

Now you are trolling.

We both know that you Shoot then Move. Those are overall the Base things you do. Thus they are a Core Mechanic. There are little steps in between but those are core rules.

You can argue this all you want but the Learn to Play rules Teaches you the Core Mechanics of the game and the Rules Reference Guide breaks down those mechanics with their associated Rules.

At this point if you continue to disagree we likely wont get anywhere so I wont continue on.

Shoot and then Moving is a Core Mechanic.

Reference for this?

Now you are trolling.

We both know that you Shoot then Move. Those are overall the Base things you do. Thus they are a Core Mechanic. There are little steps in between but those are core rules.

You can argue this all you want but the Learn to Play rules Teaches you the Core Mechanics of the game and the Rules Reference Guide breaks down those mechanics with their associated Rules.

At this point if you continue to disagree we likely wont get anywhere so I wont continue on.

Essentially what you are arguing is that it is acceptable to justify a completely personal arbitary division between "rules" and "core mechanics" as a powerful argument.

Where is the line between "core mechanic" and rules?

Its completely arbitary.

What you are all doing is fitting an argument to match your hypothesis.

Rhymer and Demo are OP!

Why?

Cause I have decided arbitarily that they break my definition of core rules.

This isnt a discussion point, its a refusal to engage in debate.

YV 666's are OP

Why?

They break a core mechanic by moving and shooting in the squadron phase.

Epic point, YV666's should be nerfed.

This is your argument. YV666's are as strong as Demo and Rhymer.

Its science.

From RRG:

The Golden Rules

"This Rules Reference booklet is the definitive source of rules information for Star Wars: Armada.

If something in this booklet contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference booklet is correct.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute."

The only mention of "Core" in the RRG is the "Core" Set and Executive Designer "Core"y Konieczka.

Man we better get an article soon...

YV 666's are OP

Why?

They break a core mechanic by moving and shooting in the squadron phase.

Epic point, YV666's should be nerfed.

This is your argument. YV666's are as strong as Demo and Rhymer.

Its science.

Actually the line between a core mechanic and rules is pretty simple.

"A game's core mechanic is the action of play: the activity players do over and over again in the game, like jumping, collecting, flying, or shooting. The qualities of the game space make certain core mechanics more effective than others."

We CONSTANTLY Move, we CONSTANTLY Attack. HOWEVER we DONT constantly, every single turn use the Overlap rule, etc.

Rules are addendum to those mechanics.

posting on the forums is a crutch

I can totally see what you mean by core mechanics. As an example, I'd say in chess the core mechanics are

• Players take it in turns to move one piece

• If a piece ends its move on the same square as an opponent's piece the opponent's piece is removed from the game

• Check

while the remaining rules are the individual movements each piece can do, castling, pawns becoming queens, etc.

However, I don't see the problem with cards that allow exceptions from the core mechanics, so long as they're appropriately costed, and don't ruin the flow of the game.

Are Ryhmer and Demolisher considered OP then? I haven't played much Armada, but I did find Demolisher extremely scary when I faced him, but Rhymer didn't seem too bad. Powerful, certainly, I'd always take him if I was focused on bombing, but not game breakingly so.

No, because Demolisher is pretty bad against things that use brace tokens. Honestly most of the time I use Demolisher it's to go one-shotting CR90's and the other half is to just engine-techs double-ram.

As for Rhymer, there's always engagement.

Disregard.

YV 666's are OP

Why?

They break a core mechanic by moving and shooting in the squadron phase.

Epic point, YV666's should be nerfed.

This is your argument. YV666's are as strong as Demo and Rhymer.

Its science.

Actually the line between a core mechanic and rules is pretty simple.

"A game's core mechanic is the action of play: the activity players do over and over again in the game, like jumping, collecting, flying, or shooting. The qualities of the game space make certain core mechanics more effective than others."

We CONSTANTLY Move, we CONSTANTLY Attack. HOWEVER we DONT constantly, every single turn use the Overlap rule, etc.

Rules are addendum to those mechanics.

How does this apply/refer to the YV666 not being as strong as Demo (aside from damage output, etc)? The squad phase says squads can only attack or move and Rogue super-cedes that so I don't follow where you are going.

And where is this definition coming from?

Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

I think you are all getting hung up on silly words.

It dramatically alters the rules at a point cost that doesn't *seem* to match the benefit.

Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

And do each of those change a core mechanic with such a low drawback?

Is Yavaris as fast or survivable as a GSD? Dodonna happens sometimes and is not used every turn like Demolisher can and is more times than not. Mothma Modifies a rule not changes it. Raymus Modifies the rule not changes, Luke requires that you actually hit, Rogue's can be engaged.

The ONLY way to stop Demolisher is to kill it. That is it. It has no inherent drawbacks. 10 points is not a drawback, just a small tax.

Curses! The dreaded Demolisher poisions all it touches

Crutches! Foiled again!

Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

And do each of those change a core mechanic with such a low drawback?

Is Yavaris as fast or survivable as a GSD? Dodonna happens sometimes and is not used every turn like Demolisher can and is more times than not. Mothma Modifies a rule not changes it. Raymus Modifies the rule not changes, Luke requires that you actually hit, Rogue's can be engaged.

The ONLY way to stop Demolisher is to kill it. That is it. It has no inherent drawbacks. 10 points is not a drawback, just a small tax.

What's Mon Mothmas drawback?

Like mason verger, I love the tears of rhymer and demo haters.

Rogue changes the core mechanics (you can move & shoot.)

Yavaris changes the core mechanics (squadrons may shoot twice in one turn.)

Dodonna changes the core mechanics (look at 4 crit cards and pick one to resolve, when an enemy takes a face up damage from any source, including overlapping)

Monmothma changes the core mechanics (use evade tokens at med to cancel die, close to reroll)

Rieekan changes the core mechanics (dont remove ships when they die)

Luke Skywalker changes core mechanics (can't use shields to stop his damage)

Raymus Antillies changes core mechanics ( gain a command token, and can spend dial)

I can list more if you need me to?

To argue that only Demolisher and Rhymer change core mechanics is disingenuous at best, and outright lying at worst. Core Mechanics are the stuff that the game came with, everything in that is the base, and anything that changes how ANY of that works, is changing the core mechanics of the game.

And do each of those change a core mechanic with such a low drawback?

Is Yavaris as fast or survivable as a GSD? Dodonna happens sometimes and is not used every turn like Demolisher can and is more times than not. Mothma Modifies a rule not changes it. Raymus Modifies the rule not changes, Luke requires that you actually hit, Rogue's can be engaged.

The ONLY way to stop Demolisher is to kill it. That is it. It has no inherent drawbacks. 10 points is not a drawback, just a small tax.

What's Mon Mothmas drawback?

Don't get dragged into his misdirection. His original claim was that only Rhymer and Demolisher are core changes. Now he's moving the goalposts to 'core changes with a low drawback'.