Have you played Rhymer?

People overuse Rhymer. He's a crutch impeding your growth as a commander and your tactics on the board. The argument for Rhymer is that he allows your squadrons to have a greater threat range while needing less tending. Okay, sure. Less tending. To me that reads as sloppier positioning. I can place my Rhymer ball poorly and it won't hurt (as much) because I used Rhymer.

No he isn't. Rhymer played properly has way more tending than a get into Range 1 and shoot da ship squadron. Rhymer can cover flanks, threaten multiple ships/area denial, avoid point defense by performing a squadron center peel, kite enemy squadrons whilst putting damage on ships. Rhymer is also fantastic bait. I'll happily leave him in front of the pack to draw in multiple squadrons to Alpha strike him. Then I follow up with Mauler, Rouges, Vader and whoever came to kill him is is dead/crippled.

However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective.

Wot? This doesn't make sense. Taking another squadron away doesn't suddenly make others "MORE effective"

in many ways, Rhymer only gets you 1 additional turn of shooting. Or does he?

Depends. If they have Xwings only you get an infintie amount of extra shooting because they cannot catch your Fireball that starts at Medium and flys the same speed.

What Rhymer does is let you swing from Target to Target, disengage and aquire a new target instantlly. Speed 3 or 4 Bombers + Medium Range. Nothing can cover flanks quicker than Rhymer. This is his true power.

The problem with Rhymer is the ball. It creates a nice fat target to get pinned down or ship Flak. To avoid getting pinned down, people bring intel. To protect the otherwise weak intel ship they then bring escorts. Suddenly you have a big expensive ball that is losing raw efficiency

Ship flak? Rhymer is the only squadron (Bomber) that enables you do avoid flak entirely (whilst putting damage on). Move up a compliment of bombers (that you can fully command next turn) into Medium Range during the Squadron Phase. First activation you shoot and fall back out of range. If you have Firesprays you don't even need to Command them as you can do this move in the Squadron phase. As second player leave them outside of max point defense range and let them drift into range. During the Squadron Phase you shoot the ship. This way you can fully command any Anti Squadron-Squadrons.

Dengar/Vader. One gives a good effect to all squadrons in range adding extra attacks, one is anti squadron shotgun and bomber. Adding Vanilla varieties increases your tactical choices. You might be a "less efficent bomber ball" in terms of Potential Damage on paper. Or are you? If you add a Jump Master this allows you to put 5 black dice on a target instead of getting fully pinned down with 6 Tie Bombers that do "more damage"

Efficiency is thrown around so often it has very little meaning to me. You cannot win on Tie Bombers/Bombers alone. You always have to take something to make them work or assist their deficiencies.

Playing without Rhymer means no ball. Means no need for intel.

No it doesn't.

I suggest packets of 2 TIE fighters and 1 TIE bomber. A nice round 25 points with good all-around stats that doesn't leave you out to dry vs no-ship lists OR squadron heavy lists.

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=45448&key=b18017289f533fe09b68f362be8c41a7

There we go?

Or you could have like 7 Gozantis but I found that overkill (21 activations). This can command almost everything per turn.

Show me it working and I'll be convinced this is a good squadron composition. My thinking says it isn't...you know what would help! Rhymer! Because when your Gozantis die and you can't command anything you can at least shoot something not in distance 1.

Does wingclipping help to improve my running speed? Probably. But dont tell me that my flying will improve by doing so. Dropping the hot choices greatly help to gather experience and to get a feeling for the less obvious candidates out there, but telling people that dropping Rhymer will help in bomber wings performing better is grossly overshooting it.

I felt like the forums needed a controversial topic, so I stepped up to fill the need.

People overuse Rhymer. He's a crutch impeding your growth as a commander and your tactics on the board. The argument for Rhymer is that he allows your squadrons to have a greater threat range while needing less tending. Okay, sure. Less tending. To me that reads as sloppier positioning. I can place my Rhymer ball poorly and it won't hurt (as much) because I used Rhymer. However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective.

I suggest packets of 2 TIE fighters and 1 TIE bomber. A nice round 25 points with good all-around stats that doesn't leave you out to dry vs no-ship lists OR squadron heavy lists.

But now you want us to use the most useless squadron in the game the basic Tie. You just want us to give points to the other player?

I felt like the forums needed a controversial topic, so I stepped up to fill the need.

Tranenturm succeeds in the main point of his post!!! Well done.

Please post this topic in the X-Wing forum

If fighters weren't so terrible I wouldn't need Rhymer.

What an interesting thread. . . Here let me point you to my Imperial challenge!

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/229545-a-challenge-to-all-imperial-players/

Shove your challenge man. Can dudes have a convo without the inclusion of your attention-whoring?

Please post this topic in the X-Wing forum

Adv homing missile crutch!

What an interesting thread. . . Here let me point you to my Imperial challenge!

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/229545-a-challenge-to-all-imperial-players/

Shove your challenge man. Can dudes have a convo without the inclusion of your attention-whoring?

That's harsh. His thread is relevant to this one.

Please post this topic in the X-Wing forum

I'm too long gone from x-wing to know what this means in today's context. Back in the day I spent a lot of time trying to make a viable Rhymer list to little avail. That was prior to scum.

An Aceball is already balling for multiple reasons. I'm not against Rhymer joining a ball in progress. My point is that TIE Bombers can be effective without Rhymer. I didn't say Mauler, Howlrunner, Denar, and company are more effective without him. You're doing a straw man argument.

Taking a squadron away CAN make others more effective if the one being removed encourages poor play.

You then give several points about moving bombers around that have no relevance to whether Rhymer is with the ball or not. TIE bombers can move speed 4 away from x-wings whether or not Rhymer is with them. Furthermore, if you're spending a command every turn to accomplish this then that actually reduces the need for Rhymer. Any squadron can quite effectively be part of a squadron screen regardless if the attack is coming from normal shooting distance or medium range. And once the bombers are close enough to threaten the whole ship (even with Rhymer), they are close enough for speed 3 X-wings to alpha strike.

Your command intensive "peel away" also works just fine sans Rhymer. You need to have better positioning and anticipation for it to work, but it still works.

Rhymer in no way counters all ship flak. He sort of counters black dice flak if the enemy is silly enough to never close. But if all you are doing is command intensive shoot and retreat (with a retreating Imperial vessel, how unbecoming of an officer of the Navy), then Rhymer's additional range isn't really contributing. I can do that with normal bombers.

Letting ships come to you is a tried and true B-wing tactic. B-wings don't have Rhymer.

Rhymer makes things easier. Of course he gets played. But Rebel squadrons do just fine without Rhymer, IF the player has gone to the trouble of learning the tricks of squadrons. If you want to treat it like a baseball warm up playing without him and then play the tournament with him, fine. I'm not stopping you. If you want every imperial squadron list to begin and end with a ball, that's your mental trap not mine. I'm just the voice at the prison door telling you the door unlocked, you just have to step out.

Yes it does.

I felt like the forums needed a controversial topic, so I stepped up to fill the need.

People overuse Rhymer. He's a crutch impeding your growth as a commander and your tactics on the board. The argument for Rhymer is that he allows your squadrons to have a greater threat range while needing less tending. Okay, sure. Less tending. To me that reads as sloppier positioning. I can place my Rhymer ball poorly and it won't hurt (as much) because I used Rhymer. However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective.

I suggest packets of 2 TIE fighters and 1 TIE bomber. A nice round 25 points with good all-around stats that doesn't leave you out to dry vs no-ship lists OR squadron heavy lists.

But now you want us to use the most useless squadron in the game the basic Tie. You just want us to give points to the other player?

TIE fighters are just fine. They are fragile but no more fragile than the more expensive Interceptors in lists the pro-Rhymer people in the thread have be proposing. From a pure point perspective they are incredibly efficient. That efficiency is somewhat lessoned by their 3 hp and there can be only so many commands thrown.

I'm also not saying they are your only alternative. Use aggressors. Use Interceptors (though I'm not a fan). Use whatever you want. I'm not trying to push TIE fighters. I'm pushing playing without balls.

um...

that didn't come out quite right.

If i wanted to play without balls id play rebels.... while I can play imperial gureilla squadrons or even rebel ball squadrons..... doesnt mean i should. sometimes there are clear design purposes behind why things get played the way they do. Imperials joust and their squadrons swarm... its how it work IRL.... the rebels cant win a straight fight they dont have the fire power... so they toilet bowl, keep the enemy at ranged, kite and whittle them down.... its the fluff of the universe and armada captures that very very well. Now can imperials toilet bowl...sure. can rebels joust.... yup. that doesn't necessarily mean they should.

Question: Have you ever played Rhymer? Please answer because i) it's clear you have not (and i want to hear it) ii) you are surely trolling now, right?, right? iii) your arguments are terrible. Don't chide me for fallacy when you provide it in spades

You then give several points about moving bombers around that have no relevance to whether Rhymer is with the ball or not. TIE bombers can move speed 4 away from x-wings whether or not Rhymer is with them. Furthermore, if you're spending a command every turn to accomplish this then that actually reduces the need for Rhymer.

Yes Tie Bombers can move speed 4 away from Xwings. But without Rhymer it questionable that they would attack a ship and avoid the Xwings/YT/AWing, or escape Point Defense. Not only this but to practiclly get into bombing Range for a Squadron Command with Generics you are either required to i) move into bombing range in the squadron phase ii) wait from a ship to drift into you. Both of these are clearly frought with extra danger (and bad timing) that going without the extra range buffer Rhymer provides.

So you're not spending Squadron Commands on generic Tie Bombers in your turn? How the **** do you plan to fight anything? Wait for something to drift into you every turn and attack in squadron phase with Generics? Great plan!

You seem to be under the impression that Rhymer entirely removes the need for squadron commands.

This is clearly written from the perspective of i) someone who is salty about Rhymer and assumes he makes the game easy ii) no flight time with Rhymer

Your command intensive "peel away" also works just fine sans Rhymer. You need to have better positioning and anticipation for it to work, but it still works.

"Just fine". So an allowence of up to the full length of Medium compared to Range 1 is according to you a "just fine" call. Your judgement is clearly poor. That or coloured by a strong desire to be a polemicist. Then in your "just fine" world your Carrier has to be a full Medium Length closer to danger to Command the bombers to fall back. Therefore putting everything in more danger but nah it's "just fine".

Questions: Did you come to your assessment of "just fine" based on any experience or form of play testing? Or are you just saying things for the sake of argument? Have you honestly even ever performed a "peel"?

"However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective."

then

"My point is that TIE Bombers can be effective without Rhymer. I didn't say Mauler, Howlrunner, Denar, and company are more effective without him. You're doing a straw man argument."

You're right. You never said Mauler, Howl and Dengar are more effective. I case you missed it you said, "However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective"

No strawman here. I'm just quoting you. Maybe that's why you think something doesn't make sense.

Taking a squadron away CAN make others more effective if the one being removed encourages poor play

This is bull. You can't drift between talking about efficiency (in this case an objective numerical assessment) and individual skill. You're also begging the question, that a unit in of itself actually encourages poor play.

But if all you are doing is command intensive shoot and retreat

Basic Squadron Commands are "intensive" now? Or is it intensive because I retreat? So i should sit there and cop flak?

Question: Do you think squadron commands are bad?

(with a retreating Imperial vessel, how unbecoming of an officer of the Navy)

Appeal to emotion? Seriously?

I can do that with normal bombers.

No you can't. Many are not fast enough, some barely. And you put yourself closer to other threats. Rhymer straight up blanks it by adding an additional medium length messure. You are aware that the Range Rhymer provies is the same length as a Blue Point Defense yes? Meaning with Rhymer you are only required to move each squadron a little bit more than it's own base out of range. In fact if you are doing it propelly with a VSD you put 3 Bombers just in Range and leave Rhymer (because his ability is Range 1). This way the VSD can Squadron Command 3 (with Boosted Comms of course), pull them back out of PD range, now the enemy ship is only required to be moving speed 1 to allow Rhymer to shoot in the Squadron phase. You might do this is you want to use Wulf to cut speed down so you can keep the Nav Token for later. Next turn you can spend the Squadron token for 4 Squadron so you can pull Rhymer and the 3 Bombers back further. This is what actual experience looks like.

Yes it does.

First off i) Rymer balls don't need an Intel ship. There is no golden rule that says so. ii) Despite this cutting Rhymer doesn't mean the need for Intel dissapears (but there is still no "must/golden rule"). This is clearly your assumption, that Rhymer i) needs Intel ii) non Rhymer doesn't. Do Rebels run Jan? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There is no rule. Being able to move when "engaged" is still useful in of itself. You're assuming this is somehow not the case. Which again leads us to call your actual squadron experiences into question.

Feel free to try again.

Rhymer and 13 Tie Bombers do not need no stinkin intel! you wanna eat 14 black dice with 2 pinning squadrons? bring it on! And because you can shoot at medium range, it doesn't matter so much if you waste a round annihilating what is attempting to pin your 14 Bombers of doom.

Rhymer and 13 Tie Bombers do not need no stinkin intel! you wanna eat 14 black dice with 2 pinning squadrons? bring it on! And because you can shoot at medium range, it doesn't matter so much if you waste a round annihilating what is attempting to pin your 14 Bombers of doom.

If we huddle close enough together we can defend some of the swarm from Mauler!

Rhymer and 13 Tie Bombers do not need no stinkin intel! you wanna eat 14 black dice with 2 pinning squadrons? bring it on! And because you can shoot at medium range, it doesn't matter so much if you waste a round annihilating what is attempting to pin your 14 Bombers of doom.

Can you even fit 13 bombers within distance 1 of Rhymer?

Question: Have you ever played Rhymer? Please answer because i) it's clear you have not (and i want to hear it) ii) you are surely trolling now, right?, right? iii) your arguments are terrible. Don't chide me for fallacy when you provide it in spades

You then give several points about moving bombers around that have no relevance to whether Rhymer is with the ball or not. TIE bombers can move speed 4 away from x-wings whether or not Rhymer is with them. Furthermore, if you're spending a command every turn to accomplish this then that actually reduces the need for Rhymer.

Yes Tie Bombers can move speed 4 away from Xwings. But without Rhymer it questionable that they would attack a ship and avoid the Xwings/YT/AWing, or escape Point Defense. Not only this but to practiclly get into bombing Range for a Squadron Command with Generics you are either required to i) move into bombing range in the squadron phase ii) wait from a ship to drift into you. Both of these are clearly frought with extra danger (and bad timing) that going without the extra range buffer Rhymer provides.

So you're not spending Squadron Commands on generic Tie Bombers in your turn? How the **** do you plan to fight anything? Wait for something to drift into you every turn and attack in squadron phase with Generics? Great plan!

You seem to be under the impression that Rhymer entirely removes the need for squadron commands.

This is clearly written from the perspective of i) someone who is salty about Rhymer and assumes he makes the game easy ii) no flight time with Rhymer

Your command intensive "peel away" also works just fine sans Rhymer. You need to have better positioning and anticipation for it to work, but it still works.

"Just fine". So an allowence of up to the full length of Medium compared to Range 1 is according to you a "just fine" call. Your judgement is clearly poor. That or coloured by a strong desire to be a polemicist. Then in your "just fine" world your Carrier has to be a full Medium Length closer to danger to Command the bombers to fall back. Therefore putting everything in more danger but nah it's "just fine".

Questions: Did you come to your assessment of "just fine" based on any experience or form of play testing? Or are you just saying things for the sake of argument? Have you honestly even ever performed a "peel"?

"However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective."

then

"My point is that TIE Bombers can be effective without Rhymer. I didn't say Mauler, Howlrunner, Denar, and company are more effective without him. You're doing a straw man argument."

You're right. You never said Mauler, Howl and Dengar are more effective. I case you missed it you said, "However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective"

No strawman here. I'm just quoting you. Maybe that's why you think something doesn't make sense.

Taking a squadron away CAN make others more effective if the one being removed encourages poor play

This is bull. You can't drift between talking about efficiency (in this case an objective numerical assessment) and individual skill. You're also begging the question, that a unit in of itself actually encourages poor play.

But if all you are doing is command intensive shoot and retreat

Basic Squadron Commands are "intensive" now? Or is it intensive because I retreat? So i should sit there and cop flak?

Question: Do you think squadron commands are bad?

(with a retreating Imperial vessel, how unbecoming of an officer of the Navy)

Appeal to emotion? Seriously?

I can do that with normal bombers.

No you can't. Many are not fast enough, some barely. And you put yourself closer to other threats. Rhymer straight up blanks it by adding an additional medium length messure. You are aware that the Range Rhymer provies is the same length as a Blue Point Defense yes? Meaning with Rhymer you are only required to move each squadron a little bit more than it's own base out of range. In fact if you are doing it propelly with a VSD you put 3 Bombers just in Range and leave Rhymer (because his ability is Range 1). This way the VSD can Squadron Command 3 (with Boosted Comms of course), pull them back out of PD range, now the enemy ship is only required to be moving speed 1 to allow Rhymer to shoot in the Squadron phase. You might do this is you want to use Wulf to cut speed down so you can keep the Nav Token for later. Next turn you can spend the Squadron token for 4 Squadron so you can pull Rhymer and the 3 Bombers back further. This is what actual experience looks like.

Yes it does.

First off i) Rymer balls don't need an Intel ship. There is no golden rule that says so. ii) Despite this cutting Rhymer doesn't mean the need for Intel dissapears (but there is still no "must/golden rule"). This is clearly your assumption, that Rhymer i) needs Intel ii) non Rhymer doesn't. Do Rebels run Jan? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There is no rule. Being able to move when "engaged" is still useful in of itself. You're assuming this is somehow not the case. Which again.

My "appeal to emotion" in your words was an appeal to humor which clearly missed. If you wish to continue this, let's slow down. Breathe. Realize we play this for fun and this doesn't need to be debate school. Im very happy to work through but the wall of text is hard to respond via cell phone. So pick a point and let's start there.

Yeah I'm breathing, i can clearly see that was humour, i was just up early, not being able to sleep, so sorry about that one!

But don't declare you're spoiler for a fight and then tell people to "slow down" when they address points raised. I'm up and had my breakfast now so I can tone down the tone I left questions of my own, you can awsner the non snide ones or respond to my responses.

Anything is always up for debate!

Rhymer and 13 Tie Bombers do not need no stinkin intel! you wanna eat 14 black dice with 2 pinning squadrons? bring it on! And because you can shoot at medium range, it doesn't matter so much if you waste a round annihilating what is attempting to pin your 14 Bombers of doom.

Can you even fit 13 bombers within distance 1 of Rhymer?

By my count this is 27?

Rhymer and 13 Tie Bombers do not need no stinkin intel! you wanna eat 14 black dice with 2 pinning squadrons? bring it on! And because you can shoot at medium range, it doesn't matter so much if you waste a round annihilating what is attempting to pin your 14 Bombers of doom.

Can you even fit 13 bombers within distance 1 of Rhymer?

Oh yeah. 13 is nothing for ole Rhymer.

Rhymer and 13 Tie Bombers do not need no stinkin intel! you wanna eat 14 black dice with 2 pinning squadrons? bring it on! And because you can shoot at medium range, it doesn't matter so much if you waste a round annihilating what is attempting to pin your 14 Bombers of doom.

Can you even fit 13 bombers within distance 1 of Rhymer?

By my count this is 27?

Not good enough. You have to park them closer...

Q: how many bombers at distance 1?

A: 36

Behold...

36*9+16=340

340*3=1020

So in a 1020+ points fleet you could totally do this.

And member to part some BCC flotillas nearby...

Cool little interlude.

Okay. Let's start with the peel (just got to start somewhere). I think we both have some unstated assumptions that are different and confusing things. Please pick a sample engagement. You mentioned a VSD carrier so let's go with that. Boosted comms. Rhymer and what else? What enemy do you want to discuss first, a no ship list or squadron force and what relevant composition? What's your approach strategy? What do you do vs likely enemy counter actions?

No trick questions from me btw. Setting up a common framework