What an interesting thread. . . Here let me point you to my Imperial challenge!
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/229545-a-challenge-to-all-imperial-players/
Lose Rhymer, he's a crutch
Based on this definition, Demo and Rhymer are not auto-includes. I had a very-specific reason to not take them when I was building my regional\GenCon list: I can't build 5 activation list with 2 ISDs and either of them being present.Auto-include:
something you have no reason not to take.
And I felt that 2ISD 5 activations strategy gave me a best shot for the regionals.
If my goal is to win Armada worlds in May this coming year.... why would I not take rhymer and or demo if they continue to be arguably the best options pt for pt?
Because you don't win with the best ships thrown together, you win with the strategy and the fleet that is built around that strategy. And there are Imperial strategies that don't synergize with Demo or Rhymer.
fair....
I'm speaking of my experiences and my lists have always been squadron heavy to prove they aren't bad/not lose to rebel fighters. squadron heavy means. You designed a specific type of list... arguably a dark horse to out meta an established rhymer/demo meta.... which it worked... your list was not a meta list, hence the dark horse.. I am not saying its bad or noncompetitive. I don't know its ins and out and I have never played it or against it. I am sure you are plenty aware of any holes and issues your list has, as I am with my list. No list is 100% perfect.
If my task is to win a tournament tomorrow not having played since LI regionals based on my knowledge of the meta at hand based on forums and experience Rhymer/Demo fit the auto include bill as they give me plenty of opportunities to win.
I look at it in a very "why take a screw driver when I can bring a power drill" mentality.
Stuff about being competitive...
Auto-include:
something you have no reason not to take.
many upgrades do not fit this since there are a lot different uses for different types of turbo lasers for example.
Pound for Pound Pt for Pt Rhymers Value is too high not to take. He lets me play sloppy in a 5 round event.... he dictates what my opponent has to do on some level... he gives me a threat extension that is very very hard to counter with fighters, especially on speed 5 interceptors.... he will straight win me games when your last ship is out of range on 3 health and i have 3 squadrons left.... its corner case... its rare... but winning 7-3 is better than a 5-5 draw or loss.... for 16pts he is worth it every single time.
You should be competitive for a tourney and go with what works best. Agreed.
A case can be made for helpers that correct for sloppy play when doing a five round tournament. Mental fatigue is a thing and Rhymer certainly can help with that, as can so many of the other squadron helpers (like FCT) that also mitigate mistakes (though the added speed of FCT opens up new play areas for b-wing far beyond what good play does without).
I assume your threat extension comment is for the initial closing of forces. Rhymer alone doesn't accomplish that. A reasonable fighter screen can be set up to cover medium range Rhymer shots, hence Rhymer PLUS intel. An early (sacrificial) A-wing pin is certainly still possible and worse can strip an intel ship away from your ball that you are relying on to get your shots off. Or it delays you a turn. Worth the A-wing.
A single A-wing CAN'T pin a defuse squadron play. Just can't cover that much space. Furthermore, defuse setup demands more screening squadrons and more spread out squadrons. I can overwhelm opposing anti-squadron simply by being in too many places at once. Sure you take out a subsection, but if I've planned it right the damage is done.
As for chasing a ship, we're talking about a very low percentage of cases where the ship is getting away falls inside a narrow range of distances where the effect is useful. Not a convincing argument.
I look at it in a very "why take a screw driver when I can bring a power drill" mentality.
To Extend the Metaphor:
Because an Expert with a Chisel will do finer work than a Novice with an Axe. 
But you still need intel to free your bombers from enemy squadrons..... and well you already have tie fighters to counteract the heavy of tie bombers so may as well make them tie advanceds..... and then adding Rhymer just makes it slightly better....
hmmmmm
I am not sure what your argument is. You basically say that running bombers with escorts and intel is a waste as you want more bombers. Then you say that you should be running 66% tie fighters. Literally the opposite of your argument.
His observation is that without the need to keep your bombers within 1 of Rhymer, you can spread them out, so that your entire bomber force can't be locked down by 1 or 2 fighters.
Stuff about being competitive...
Auto-include:
something you have no reason not to take.
many upgrades do not fit this since there are a lot different uses for different types of turbo lasers for example.
Pound for Pound Pt for Pt Rhymers Value is too high not to take. He lets me play sloppy in a 5 round event.... he dictates what my opponent has to do on some level... he gives me a threat extension that is very very hard to counter with fighters, especially on speed 5 interceptors.... he will straight win me games when your last ship is out of range on 3 health and i have 3 squadrons left.... its corner case... its rare... but winning 7-3 is better than a 5-5 draw or loss.... for 16pts he is worth it every single time.
You should be competitive for a tourney and go with what works best. Agreed.
A case can be made for helpers that correct for sloppy play when doing a five round tournament. Mental fatigue is a thing and Rhymer certainly can help with that, as can so many of the other squadron helpers (like FCT) that also mitigate mistakes (though the added speed of FCT opens up new play areas for b-wing far beyond what good play does without).
I assume your threat extension comment is for the initial closing of forces. Rhymer alone doesn't accomplish that. A reasonable fighter screen can be set up to cover medium range Rhymer shots, hence Rhymer PLUS intel. An early (sacrificial) A-wing pin is certainly still possible and worse can strip an intel ship away from your ball that you are relying on to get your shots off. Or it delays you a turn. Worth the A-wing.
A single A-wing CAN'T pin a defuse squadron play. Just can't cover that much space. Furthermore, defuse setup demands more screening squadrons and more spread out squadrons. I can overwhelm opposing anti-squadron simply by being in too many places at once. Sure you take out a subsection, but if I've planned it right the damage is done.
As for chasing a ship, we're talking about a very low percentage of cases where the ship is getting away falls inside a narrow range of distances where the effect is useful. Not a convincing argument.
I agree to your last point.. I've lost too many games because ive left a ship at 2pts... and wasn't in range.
the thing about rhymer with ties is.... either i alpha your ship or I alpha your squadrons... i feel its a win/win either way... as i dont really need my squadrons to survive all 6 turns. If they wipe out 3 enemy stands and can survive the reprisal to win the engagement next turn i am up on pts and harass ships... if i go for your ship off the rip maybe you havn't qued engineering fast enough and i have an opportunity to deal a lot of damage. I am running rhymer with dengar for very obvious reasons....
i guess the tone of the thread is what triggers me.. ill admit it. i've seen these pop up since rhymer came out. im tired of it as much as you are tired of people like me sayings hes an auto include. This thread's title came off as abrasive. where Lyraeus's thread is more of an ice bucket challenge vibe without the non-profit corruption.
I feel demolisher is legit bad for the game.... I wont contest that. that doesn't mean we need 3 threads a day about "stop crutching demo newb, git gud!" thats the tone of the threads.
I look at it in a very "why take a screw driver when I can bring a power drill" mentality.
To Extend the Metaphor:
Because an Expert with a Chisel will do finer work than a Novice with an Axe.
rhymer and his bombers are less scalpel more sledgehammer...
I look at it in a very "why take a screw driver when I can bring a power drill" mentality.
To Extend the Metaphor:
Because an Expert with a Chisel will do finer work than a Novice with an Axe.
rhymer and his bombers are less scalpel more sledgehammer...
Do you really want to make this a "size compensation" joke? Because it could become one, and I don't think you'll consider it favourable
But you still need intel to free your bombers from enemy squadrons..... and well you already have tie fighters to counteract the heavy of tie bombers so may as well make them tie advanceds..... and then adding Rhymer just makes it slightly better....
hmmmmm
I am not sure what your argument is. You basically say that running bombers with escorts and intel is a waste as you want more bombers. Then you say that you should be running 66% tie fighters. Literally the opposite of your argument.
His observation is that without the need to keep your bombers within 1 of Rhymer, you can spread them out, so that your entire bomber force can't be locked down by 1 or 2 fighters.
No longer need to, I just need to protect the distance 1 zone from my ships. I CAN do that with 2 squads.
Now spread out AND use Rhymer and I am stretched too thin
Which is why running without rhymer is good training, but its still better to have him.
I ran
1 TIE Fighter
5 TIE INTs
Howlrunner
Rhymer
Dengar
I found that in the 134pt allowance this let me win dog fights effectively (with boosted comms, flight controllers) and also enable my ships to kill ships by dropping shields....
Ran with 2 ISDs I could issue 2 orders and get all of my squadrons activated outside teh squadron phase.
being 400pts I got to dictate the objective.
this is where my experiences come from.
dengar offers intel and coutner... howlrunner offers attack dice on counter and the alpha. TIE ints get 6 blue attack and counter 4... it shreds even aces... jan is an issue but she runs out of tokens.
that maybe blue dice is still a big enough threat to enemy ships. you are adding 4 blue dice to an attack role and effectively saying your brace doesn't matter and your redirection is a waste as my ship hasn't fired yet. your opponent is forced to spend defense tokens they don't want to or just eat damage to their shields.
I am rolling enough dice were the 50/50 odds of the blue die is enough for me to considerate a threat. It also tilts the **** out of your opponent when you go 3/4. unintentional consequence but the salt can get real, fast.
So maybe rhymer isn't an auto include for everyone but for the way i decided to play the game and things i specifically want to accomplish in my game hes an auto include for me
I ran
1 TIE Fighter
5 TIE INTs
Howlrunner
Rhymer
Dengar
I found that in the 134pt allowance this let me win dog fights effectively (with boosted comms, flight controllers) and also enable my ships to kill ships by dropping shields....
Ran with 2 ISDs I could issue 2 orders and get all of my squadrons activated outside teh squadron phase.
being 400pts I got to dictate the objective.
this is where my experiences come from.
dengar offers intel and coutner... howlrunner offers attack dice on counter and the alpha. TIE ints get 6 blue attack and counter 4... it shreds even aces... jan is an issue but she runs out of tokens.
that maybe blue dice is still a big enough threat to enemy ships. you are adding 4 blue dice to an attack role and effectively saying your brace doesn't matter and your redirection is a waste as my ship hasn't fired yet. your opponent is forced to spend defense tokens they don't want to or just eat damage to their shields.
I am rolling enough dice were the 50/50 odds of the blue die is enough for me to considerate a threat. It also tilts the **** out of your opponent when you go 3/4. unintentional consequence but the salt can get real, fast.
So maybe rhymer isn't an auto include for everyone but for the way i decided to play the game and things i specifically want to accomplish in my game hes an auto include for me
I wonder how this list would stand up to my Drop the Bomb List. . . hmmmm
You don't make a 10 TIE, 5 Bomber list better going to a 10 TIE, 4 Bomber, 1 Rhymer list. The point of going 10/5 is separate your ships. Once you put Rhymer in you either ball up or spent 8 points to increase the threat range of just a few squadrons. The ball is the primary problem here.
buttah!
I disagree thats fine. you can still split up and threaten mutliple areas... the nice thing about Rhymer is that he can just buff one pod... move on his turn and then another pod can activate and get buffed.
I ball up... plain and simple. if you wanna shred fighters instead of laying into my ship be my guest... fighters are ultimately disposable. you set your hornets nest and make your opponent choose. strong attack the enemy ship... or try and kill these **** bees? either way I win... shoot my ship my bees get to harass you. shoot my bees and my ship lives longer.
at its core armada is a game of decision making and the person who makes more wrong decisions generally loses.
even if i only ball up for 1 or 2 turns... its worth it to upgrade to rhymer.
or my opponent simply commits 30pts to kill a 16pt squdron stand that was buffing my interceptors so i still get to win squadron combat, i lost 16pts and im still going to harrier your ships.
Stuff about being competitive...
Auto-include:
something you have no reason not to take.
many upgrades do not fit this since there are a lot different uses for different types of turbo lasers for example.
Pound for Pound Pt for Pt Rhymers Value is too high not to take. He lets me play sloppy in a 5 round event.... he dictates what my opponent has to do on some level... he gives me a threat extension that is very very hard to counter with fighters, especially on speed 5 interceptors.... he will straight win me games when your last ship is out of range on 3 health and i have 3 squadrons left.... its corner case... its rare... but winning 7-3 is better than a 5-5 draw or loss.... for 16pts he is worth it every single time.
You should be competitive for a tourney and go with what works best. Agreed.
A case can be made for helpers that correct for sloppy play when doing a five round tournament. Mental fatigue is a thing and Rhymer certainly can help with that, as can so many of the other squadron helpers (like FCT) that also mitigate mistakes (though the added speed of FCT opens up new play areas for b-wing far beyond what good play does without).
I assume your threat extension comment is for the initial closing of forces. Rhymer alone doesn't accomplish that. A reasonable fighter screen can be set up to cover medium range Rhymer shots, hence Rhymer PLUS intel. An early (sacrificial) A-wing pin is certainly still possible and worse can strip an intel ship away from your ball that you are relying on to get your shots off. Or it delays you a turn. Worth the A-wing.
A single A-wing CAN'T pin a defuse squadron play. Just can't cover that much space. Furthermore, defuse setup demands more screening squadrons and more spread out squadrons. I can overwhelm opposing anti-squadron simply by being in too many places at once. Sure you take out a subsection, but if I've planned it right the damage is done.
As for chasing a ship, we're talking about a very low percentage of cases where the ship is getting away falls inside a narrow range of distances where the effect is useful. Not a convincing argument.
I agree to your last point.. I've lost too many games because ive left a ship at 2pts... and wasn't in range.
the thing about rhymer with ties is.... either i alpha your ship or I alpha your squadrons... i feel its a win/win either way... as i dont really need my squadrons to survive all 6 turns. If they wipe out 3 enemy stands and can survive the reprisal to win the engagement next turn i am up on pts and harass ships... if i go for your ship off the rip maybe you havn't qued engineering fast enough and i have an opportunity to deal a lot of damage. I am running rhymer with dengar for very obvious reasons....
i guess the tone of the thread is what triggers me.. ill admit it. i've seen these pop up since rhymer came out. im tired of it as much as you are tired of people like me sayings hes an auto include. This thread's title came off as abrasive. where Lyraeus's thread is more of an ice bucket challenge vibe without the non-profit corruption.
I feel demolisher is legit bad for the game.... I wont contest that. that doesn't mean we need 3 threads a day about "stop crutching demo newb, git gud!" thats the tone of the threads.
I did start the thread saying there wasn't enough controversy. 
So I was being slightly trollish. But I'm also really am trying to get people to break up their notions about ways to run squadrons. Your anti-ship vs anti-squadron scenario above doesn't REQUIRE Rhymer to pull off. What is required is the ability to close to range. Rhymer makes it easier, but in many cases is a redundant effect that ALSO requires a ball. 10TIEs/5Bombers is a threat to ships and squadrons entirely without Rhymer. An in many ways is easier to split up. I'm also not a big believer in matching squadrons to the amount of command points in the fleet. I expect squadrons to be lost or not always need commands so in many cases I want more squadrons than commands. You still want enough commands with TIE fighters for alpha strike purposes.
whats your list ill dojo it
So the major issue is Rhymer makes you put all your squadrons close together??
No Rhymer, not only means I have to be at distance 1 of a target, it means I have less actual space to place my squadrons, and guess what? they will all be in a small space anyway, because whats the point of attacking a ship with 1 squadron? you want as much damage as possible being thrown into the same target, plus they need to stay in activation range, because range 1 is that small, good luck getting to shoot with non rogue squadrons that are not activated.
So just how much benefit are we gaining for this supposed freedom of movement?
Must be ship activated
Must be in range of ships to be activated
Have to be at range 1 (inside black AA dice range)
Rhymer
Don't have to be ship activated
Don't have to be in range of ships to be activated
Can be all the way upto medium range for ship shooting. (outside black AA dice range)
Major Rhymer is not a crutch, nor does he "promote" bad play, you can win with him, or without him.
Edited by TheEasternKing
You don't make a 10 TIE, 5 Bomber list better going to a 10 TIE, 4 Bomber, 1 Rhymer list. The point of going 10/5 is separate your ships. Once you put Rhymer in you either ball up or spent 8 points to increase the threat range of just a few squadrons. The ball is the primary problem here.
buttah!
I disagree thats fine. you can still split up and threaten mutliple areas... the nice thing about Rhymer is that he can just buff one pod... move on his turn and then another pod can activate and get buffed.
I ball up... plain and simple. if you wanna shred fighters instead of laying into my ship be my guest... fighters are ultimately disposable. you set your hornets nest and make your opponent choose. strong attack the enemy ship... or try and kill these **** bees? either way I win... shoot my ship my bees get to harass you. shoot my bees and my ship lives longer.
at its core armada is a game of decision making and the person who makes more wrong decisions generally loses.
even if i only ball up for 1 or 2 turns... its worth it to upgrade to rhymer.
or my opponent simply commits 30pts to kill a 16pt squdron stand that was buffing my interceptors so i still get to win squadron combat, i lost 16pts and im still going to harrier your ships.
Stuff about being competitive...
Auto-include:
something you have no reason not to take.
many upgrades do not fit this since there are a lot different uses for different types of turbo lasers for example.
Pound for Pound Pt for Pt Rhymers Value is too high not to take. He lets me play sloppy in a 5 round event.... he dictates what my opponent has to do on some level... he gives me a threat extension that is very very hard to counter with fighters, especially on speed 5 interceptors.... he will straight win me games when your last ship is out of range on 3 health and i have 3 squadrons left.... its corner case... its rare... but winning 7-3 is better than a 5-5 draw or loss.... for 16pts he is worth it every single time.
You should be competitive for a tourney and go with what works best. Agreed.
A case can be made for helpers that correct for sloppy play when doing a five round tournament. Mental fatigue is a thing and Rhymer certainly can help with that, as can so many of the other squadron helpers (like FCT) that also mitigate mistakes (though the added speed of FCT opens up new play areas for b-wing far beyond what good play does without).
I assume your threat extension comment is for the initial closing of forces. Rhymer alone doesn't accomplish that. A reasonable fighter screen can be set up to cover medium range Rhymer shots, hence Rhymer PLUS intel. An early (sacrificial) A-wing pin is certainly still possible and worse can strip an intel ship away from your ball that you are relying on to get your shots off. Or it delays you a turn. Worth the A-wing.
A single A-wing CAN'T pin a defuse squadron play. Just can't cover that much space. Furthermore, defuse setup demands more screening squadrons and more spread out squadrons. I can overwhelm opposing anti-squadron simply by being in too many places at once. Sure you take out a subsection, but if I've planned it right the damage is done.
As for chasing a ship, we're talking about a very low percentage of cases where the ship is getting away falls inside a narrow range of distances where the effect is useful. Not a convincing argument.
I agree to your last point.. I've lost too many games because ive left a ship at 2pts... and wasn't in range.
the thing about rhymer with ties is.... either i alpha your ship or I alpha your squadrons... i feel its a win/win either way... as i dont really need my squadrons to survive all 6 turns. If they wipe out 3 enemy stands and can survive the reprisal to win the engagement next turn i am up on pts and harass ships... if i go for your ship off the rip maybe you havn't qued engineering fast enough and i have an opportunity to deal a lot of damage. I am running rhymer with dengar for very obvious reasons....
i guess the tone of the thread is what triggers me.. ill admit it. i've seen these pop up since rhymer came out. im tired of it as much as you are tired of people like me sayings hes an auto include. This thread's title came off as abrasive. where Lyraeus's thread is more of an ice bucket challenge vibe without the non-profit corruption.
I feel demolisher is legit bad for the game.... I wont contest that. that doesn't mean we need 3 threads a day about "stop crutching demo newb, git gud!" thats the tone of the threads.
I did start the thread saying there wasn't enough controversy.
so you are playing squadrons like spec ops hit squads... which is how I feel you play the rebels squadrons... swarm howlrunner dengar rhymer all make me want to ball up.... balling up has its disadvantages but i feel its exactly what imperial squadrons are designed around. just as rebel squadrons are designed to be self sufficient elite forces. its why for a while you say tons of rebel aces and lots of imperial swarms... it was "historically accurate"
I think what you are saying works... I am positive it does. I am not positive it is the most efficient way to run imperial squadrons.
there are a lot of things in this game that work and are fun... i played screed 4 raiders isd OLP spam with relentless... when it worked it was glorious... when it didn't work i got tabled... it was consistent. this game based on how tournament scoring works is about consistently. if my squadrons can consistently do what ive designed them to do (dominate air space, or is it space space, and still harry ships) then why change.
i had long talks with my buddy whether or not to drop rhymer... the consensus was "hes cheap enough its not a lose if you dont use his ability, you will be happy to have it when you do, it dictates a lot of your opponents actions with their squadrons" also let them kill rhymer with their squadrons... if im dog fighting i want dengar and howlrunner alive WAY more. once again, designed to force my opponents to make choices... I need to be able to capitalize on their choices.. its why I love armada.
But you still need intel to free your bombers from enemy squadrons..... and well you already have tie fighters to counteract the heavy of tie bombers so may as well make them tie advanceds..... and then adding Rhymer just makes it slightly better....
hmmmmm
I am not sure what your argument is. You basically say that running bombers with escorts and intel is a waste as you want more bombers. Then you say that you should be running 66% tie fighters. Literally the opposite of your argument.
His observation is that without the need to keep your bombers within 1 of Rhymer, you can spread them out, so that your entire bomber force can't be locked down by 1 or 2 fighters.
No longer need to, I just need to protect the distance 1 zone from my ships. I CAN do that with 2 squads.
Now spread out AND use Rhymer and I am stretched too thin
Which is why running without rhymer is good training, but its still better to have him.
Sort of. The farther out you threaten the closer together the attackers need to be at the start and the less area you actually threaten. (Two overlapping ovals. The closer the centers the more overlap, the farther apart the less overlap). So knowing this and Rhymer's capabilities I can cover a long range Rhymer threat with just a pair of squadrons space just far enough apart to limit intel. But the closer we get together for you to threaten a larger area, we quickly get into a range of me threatening an alpha strike with my own squadrons. We're not talking a huge range distance here. Particularly as very few people run Warlord anymore to increase the Bomber range. So speed 4 fighters are just fine (or FCT enabled 3 speed fighters).
You don't make a 10 TIE, 5 Bomber list better going to a 10 TIE, 4 Bomber, 1 Rhymer list. The point of going 10/5 is separate your ships. Once you put Rhymer in you either ball up or spent 8 points to increase the threat range of just a few squadrons. The ball is the primary problem here.
buttah!
I disagree thats fine. you can still split up and threaten mutliple areas... the nice thing about Rhymer is that he can just buff one pod... move on his turn and then another pod can activate and get buffed.
I ball up... plain and simple. if you wanna shred fighters instead of laying into my ship be my guest... fighters are ultimately disposable. you set your hornets nest and make your opponent choose. strong attack the enemy ship... or try and kill these **** bees? either way I win... shoot my ship my bees get to harass you. shoot my bees and my ship lives longer.
at its core armada is a game of decision making and the person who makes more wrong decisions generally loses.
even if i only ball up for 1 or 2 turns... its worth it to upgrade to rhymer.
or my opponent simply commits 30pts to kill a 16pt squdron stand that was buffing my interceptors so i still get to win squadron combat, i lost 16pts and im still going to harrier your ships.
Stuff about being competitive...
Auto-include:
something you have no reason not to take.
many upgrades do not fit this since there are a lot different uses for different types of turbo lasers for example.
Pound for Pound Pt for Pt Rhymers Value is too high not to take. He lets me play sloppy in a 5 round event.... he dictates what my opponent has to do on some level... he gives me a threat extension that is very very hard to counter with fighters, especially on speed 5 interceptors.... he will straight win me games when your last ship is out of range on 3 health and i have 3 squadrons left.... its corner case... its rare... but winning 7-3 is better than a 5-5 draw or loss.... for 16pts he is worth it every single time.
You should be competitive for a tourney and go with what works best. Agreed.
A case can be made for helpers that correct for sloppy play when doing a five round tournament. Mental fatigue is a thing and Rhymer certainly can help with that, as can so many of the other squadron helpers (like FCT) that also mitigate mistakes (though the added speed of FCT opens up new play areas for b-wing far beyond what good play does without).
I assume your threat extension comment is for the initial closing of forces. Rhymer alone doesn't accomplish that. A reasonable fighter screen can be set up to cover medium range Rhymer shots, hence Rhymer PLUS intel. An early (sacrificial) A-wing pin is certainly still possible and worse can strip an intel ship away from your ball that you are relying on to get your shots off. Or it delays you a turn. Worth the A-wing.
A single A-wing CAN'T pin a defuse squadron play. Just can't cover that much space. Furthermore, defuse setup demands more screening squadrons and more spread out squadrons. I can overwhelm opposing anti-squadron simply by being in too many places at once. Sure you take out a subsection, but if I've planned it right the damage is done.
As for chasing a ship, we're talking about a very low percentage of cases where the ship is getting away falls inside a narrow range of distances where the effect is useful. Not a convincing argument.
I agree to your last point.. I've lost too many games because ive left a ship at 2pts... and wasn't in range.
the thing about rhymer with ties is.... either i alpha your ship or I alpha your squadrons... i feel its a win/win either way... as i dont really need my squadrons to survive all 6 turns. If they wipe out 3 enemy stands and can survive the reprisal to win the engagement next turn i am up on pts and harass ships... if i go for your ship off the rip maybe you havn't qued engineering fast enough and i have an opportunity to deal a lot of damage. I am running rhymer with dengar for very obvious reasons....
i guess the tone of the thread is what triggers me.. ill admit it. i've seen these pop up since rhymer came out. im tired of it as much as you are tired of people like me sayings hes an auto include. This thread's title came off as abrasive. where Lyraeus's thread is more of an ice bucket challenge vibe without the non-profit corruption.
I feel demolisher is legit bad for the game.... I wont contest that. that doesn't mean we need 3 threads a day about "stop crutching demo newb, git gud!" thats the tone of the threads.
I did start the thread saying there wasn't enough controversy.
so you are playing squadrons like spec ops hit squads... which is how I feel you play the rebels squadrons... swarm howlrunner dengar rhymer all make me want to ball up.... balling up has its disadvantages but i feel its exactly what imperial squadrons are designed around. just as rebel squadrons are designed to be self sufficient elite forces. its why for a while you say tons of rebel aces and lots of imperial swarms... it was "historically accurate"
I think what you are saying works... I am positive it does. I am not positive it is the most efficient way to run imperial squadrons.
there are a lot of things in this game that work and are fun... i played screed 4 raiders isd OLP spam with relentless... when it worked it was glorious... when it didn't work i got tabled... it was consistent. this game based on how tournament scoring works is about consistently. if my squadrons can consistently do what ive designed them to do (dominate air space, or is it space space, and still harry ships) then why change.
i had long talks with my buddy whether or not to drop rhymer... the consensus was "hes cheap enough its not a lose if you dont use his ability, you will be happy to have it when you do, it dictates a lot of your opponents actions with their squadrons" also let them kill rhymer with their squadrons... if im dog fighting i want dengar and howlrunner alive WAY more. once again, designed to force my opponents to make choices... I need to be able to capitalize on their choices.. its why I love armada.
Your ball is what I consider an "AcesBall" which like you said, I'm balling up anyway why not include. Which is the PERFECT Rhymer usage. And to be clear my calling Rhymer a "crutch" is for shock reasons only. He's a really good card that people use to good effect. I'm interested in discussing alternatives and being a form of checking the meta. I'm fine if you all convince me that Rhymer is auto include. My point is having healthy dissent. I apologize if my tone was ever dismissive.
A Crutch is a model or card that is so good it will appear in all Tournament lists that rank the highest. Something that is so powerful or under-costed that people need to take it just to be competitive.
How is that the definition of a crutch?
A crutch is something that provides support but prevents you from performing at your best.
Raymus is a crutch as he offers you massive control benefits, but you can easily do just as well without him and spend the 7 points better.
So we may not have the exact same definition but the idea is the same. Do you run varied lists without the usual suspects? In X-Wing the Phantom and Falcon were in every single list for a long time because they were absolute crutches. Then FFG looked at the tournament lists and decided that they were too powerful and the Phantom got nerfed hard while the Flacon has seen many counters to its 360 fire arc. If players use the exact same list again and again in the tournaments I would expect a Nerf coming. If they have been tamed already then they may not get nerfed, but don't fool yourself, FFG does watch the Tournaments to gauge the power levels of their products and they are not afraid to Nerf their own products to balance the game.
We'll get a better idea after wave 5 hits the stores but I expect that the Demolisher's and Rhymer Ball's are coming to an end for the most part. That's the way it should be in a balanced game. This is not GW.
So the major issue is Rhymer makes you put all your squadrons close together??
No Rhymer, not only means I have to be at distance 1 of a target, it means I have less actual space to place my squadrons, and guess what? they will all be in a small space anyway, because whats the point of attacking a ship with 1 squadron? you want as much damage as possible being thrown into the same target, plus they need to stay in activation range, because range 1 is that small, good luck getting to shoot with non rogue squadrons that are not activated.
So just how much benefit are we gaining for this supposed freedom of movement?
Must be ship activated
Must be in range of ships to be activated
Have to be at range 1 (inside black AA dice range)
Rhymer
Don't have to be ship activated
Don't have to be in range of ships to be activated
Can be all the way upto medium range for ship shooting. (outside black AA dice range)
Major Rhymer is not a crutch, nor does he "promote" bad play, you can win with him, or without him.
This style of play doesn't mean the squadrons NEED to be ship activated. It means playing positionally rather than pure tactically. I place my squadrons in a position I expect you to be/don't want you to be. If you move to avoid those squadrons then that is (hopefully if I did it right) to my advantage. So long as I place ANY squadron in the right place it should get two attacks off on most ships (except for CR90s running speed 4). It's not uncommon for me to run 3-5 A-wings without ever intending to issue a squadron command. If you want to avoid those A-wings, so be it. The 2TIE/1Bomb package is similar (though more expensive). You can get reasonably get 4 attacks off per game without commands or force serious deviation of enemy ships. As for the flak range, sure. But the point is you're not all in the same arc.
Now that doesn't mean I don't use squadron commands. Well timed squadron commands can be the entire difference in the battle. So yes, I do invest some amount of the fleet using a TIE/bomber mix with squadron commands. Many people do. The difference is making sure your play doesn't rely entirely on the commands.
Part of this is that it emphasizes a different style of play. Rhymer balls are similar to XI-7 ships in that the emphasis is on piercing attacks destroying ships with unused shields. Defuse squadron play surrounds the enemy preventing flak from getting too many shots in and makes redirect tokens "useless" in that your plan was to use mass efficiency to reduce most of the shields ANYWAY. Go ahead. Redirect that shot to your flank shields. I have squadrons on both sides any... etc. Because I'm using efficiently costed squadrons I generally have more potential raw attack power than someone using upgrades and aces. The trick is I need to use it properly. If I'm out of position too much my raw efficiency gets lost. So its not perfect by any stretch.
I like Major "Not a Crutch" Rhymer. You should too.
First, and probably most importantly, he has the coolest card art in my opinion. I mean, he's got like a darkroom light in there or something! (Bossk's expression on his card art is actually "Darn you Major "Not a Crutch" Rhymer! I wish my card art was as cool as yours!")
I could (and should) stop right there but going on...
Second, he only costs 7 points more than a regular TIE bomber. If you are building out a bomber list, those seven points for him are very well spent. I've played TIE bomber lists without Major "Not a Crutch" Rhymer. They were fine. That is because of the inherent superiority of Imperial lists.
Finally, stop telling me what to do with my glorious Imperial machine that I paid good money for.
Second, he only costs 7 points more than a regular TIE bomber. If you are building out a bomber list, those seven points for him are very well spent. I've played TIE bomber lists without Major "Not a Crutch" Rhymer. They were fine. That is because of the inherent superiority of Imperial lists.
Finally, stop telling me what to do with my glorious Imperial machine that I paid good money for.
Fixed that for you.
cross posting in this thread
Edited by FoaSthey've made a counter to rhymer: e-wings. does he make bombing runs easier? mostly. is that a problem? no
Intel is necessary for bombers, absolutely. Unless you're running an X-wing swarm and are just planning to win he squadron battle quickly.
Shhhhhhhhh! You're ruining my Regionals plans!
Again if you Have to take it to play competitively. Do you run Imperial lists that has more than 2 squadrons without Rhymer or is he Always in your list? I have looked at many winning list from events and Rhymer and Demolisher seem to be in the majority of the lists. When list are more varied and not reliant on a cut and paste list the scene is a 1000 times better. I think wave 4 and 5 are beginning to take these lists down a notch and that is great, but old players are hard to change. (I am old and I know I can be stubborn.)
A Crutch is a model or card that is so good it will appear in all Tournament lists that rank the highest. Something that is so powerful or under-costed that people need to take it just to be competitive.
How is that the definition of a crutch?
A crutch is something that provides support but prevents you from performing at your best.
Raymus is a crutch as he offers you massive control benefits, but you can easily do just as well without him and spend the 7 points better.
So we may not have the exact same definition but the idea is the same. Do you run varied lists without the usual suspects? In X-Wing the Phantom and Falcon were in every single list for a long time because they were absolute crutches. Then FFG looked at the tournament lists and decided that they were too powerful and the Phantom got nerfed hard while the Flacon has seen many counters to its 360 fire arc. If players use the exact same list again and again in the tournaments I would expect a Nerf coming. If they have been tamed already then they may not get nerfed, but don't fool yourself, FFG does watch the Tournaments to gauge the power levels of their products and they are not afraid to Nerf their own products to balance the game.
We'll get a better idea after wave 5 hits the stores but I expect that the Demolisher's and Rhymer Ball's are coming to an end for the most part. That's the way it should be in a balanced game. This is not GW.
or better
My first thought was "speed shenanigans with demolisher..... that will go well"
Well I think the GR-75's with squadrons are a big middle finger to the Demolisher. It has decent anti-squadron dice but if you intercept it before it hits a juicy Capital ship you just stop it from earning all those juicy points. In other words I am honestly not going to say how Rhymer and Demolisher are in today's game without seeing the full effect of the new ships on their game. Rhymer is a monster but with the new squadrons and the Flotillas the whole Squadron game has changed, and for the better IMO.
But up till now those two ships have dominated the Tournament scene because they are under costs for what they do. But I am beginning to think we will hear Imperial players crying about Captian Hara because giving Rogue to other squadrons will be brutal on ships with bomber and Rebels have plenty of that to go around.