I felt like the forums needed a controversial topic, so I stepped up to fill the need.

People overuse Rhymer. He's a crutch impeding your growth as a commander and your tactics on the board. The argument for Rhymer is that he allows your squadrons to have a greater threat range while needing less tending. Okay, sure. Less tending. To me that reads as sloppier positioning. I can place my Rhymer ball poorly and it won't hurt (as much) because I used Rhymer. However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective.

First the basics. Shown in another thread about A-wings, it's fairly trivial to get a fast enough squadron into position turn 1, have 2 turns of firing on most ships speed 3 or less, a reposition turn on 4, then two more turns of firing. Placing the bomber out in front of the target vessel, most ships can not clear the squadron threat range in one move, and many even overlap the squadron (space barnacles). So in many ways, Rhymer only gets you 1 additional turn of shooting. Or does he?

The problem with Rhymer is the ball. It creates a nice fat target to get pinned down or ship Flak. To avoid getting pinned down, people bring intel. To protect the otherwise weak intel ship they then bring escorts. Suddenly you have a big expensive ball that is losing raw efficiency, and careful enemy squadron play can start to pin specific ships breaking up the ball and synergies.

Playing without Rhymer means no ball. Means no need for intel. They can pin a single bomber even when using intel, so why bring it if you don't need the bomber to be close to Rhymer. No need for intel means posing multiple threats and your own anti-squadron can focus on what you want it to focus on instead of covering your lynchpins. Playing without Rhymer means multiple ships can have squadron coverage vs just one ball. Those squadrons are harder to disrupt all at once being spread out, but can still come together on a critical turn.

The Gozanti can be invested in to help tend the straggler squadrons that Rhymer used to keep relevant. The Gozanti cruiser IS 7 points more than Rhymer, but also provides ship activations, commands, better anti-squadron and an upgrade platform (including bomber command). While some of these effects also have a radius its still allows more diffuse positioning than Rhymer does.

Rhymer isn't useless. In the AcesBall with Mithel it makes sense as you're already balling so why not? But in many more applications Rhymer is just covering up positioning mistakes while confining your deployment to a smallish area.

I suggest packets of 2 TIE fighters and 1 TIE bomber. A nice round 25 points with good all-around stats that doesn't leave you out to dry vs no-ship lists OR squadron heavy lists.

But you still need intel to free your bombers from enemy squadrons..... and well you already have tie fighters to counteract the heavy of tie bombers so may as well make them tie advanceds..... and then adding Rhymer just makes it slightly better....

hmmmmm

I am not sure what your argument is. You basically say that running bombers with escorts and intel is a waste as you want more bombers. Then you say that you should be running 66% tie fighters. Literally the opposite of your argument.

ehhhh rhymer is a straight counter to paragon

his ability usually doesn't come up that often outside turn 2 or 6 in my experience. does he correct sloppy play sure. the threat of rhymer is usually more damaging than what he actually does.

he is extremely undercosted should be 20pts.

I do think that Rhymer has created "ball centric" squadron styles for the Imperials, which has stifled other squadron management styles.

Intel is necessary for bombers, absolutely. Unless you're running an X-wing swarm and are just planning to win he squadron battle quickly.

ehhhh rhymer is a straight counter to paragon

his ability usually doesn't come up that often outside turn 2 or 6 in my experience. does he correct sloppy play sure. the threat of rhymer is usually more damaging than what he actually does.

he is extremely undercosted should be 20pts.

This is twice now that you've mentioned it...

How is Major Rhymer a counter to Paragon? I mean, he doesn't do anything to stop a Ship Double-Arcing...

I mean, even assuming that you have the two AFMK-II titles mixed up... How is he a counter even to Gallant Haven?! Because the whole point of Rhymer is to be used on Bombers Shooting Ships... And Gallant Haven only protects Squadrons...

I assume its because you're expecting the Enemy Squadrons to be remaining within Distance 1 of Gallant Haven, and you're attempting to stay outside of Distance one of THAT, and within Medium Range, to bomb the Gallant haven, correct?

Because for a "Direct Counter", that's an absolute corner case, I feel... The positioning has to be exact to get any measure of benefit from it... Whereas, really, if you were to try to argue it, Rhymer is a counter to black die anti-squadron on ships, and such upgrade cards as Point Defense Reroute and Quad Laser Turrets... Because those are directly countered by it.

Gallant Haven is incidentally affected... because there's nothing stopping them from just moving out of Haven Range to Jump your Squadrons, anyway...

Thanks for snapping before me to ask what the heck this "Paragon" that keeps getting mentioned is all about Dras.

I agree that playing without Rhymer is good practice to learn how to utilise squadrons more effectively.

I dont agree that Rhymer is just a crutch.

ehhhh rhymer is a straight counter to paragon

his ability usually doesn't come up that often outside turn 2 or 6 in my experience. does he correct sloppy play sure. the threat of rhymer is usually more damaging than what he actually does.

he is extremely undercosted should be 20pts.

This is twice now that you've mentioned it...

How is Major Rhymer a counter to Paragon? I mean, he doesn't do anything to stop a Ship Double-Arcing...

I mean, even assuming that you have the two AFMK-II titles mixed up... How is he a counter even to Gallant Haven?! Because the whole point of Rhymer is to be used on Bombers Shooting Ships... And Gallant Haven only protects Squadrons...

I assume its because you're expecting the Enemy Squadrons to be remaining within Distance 1 of Gallant Haven, and you're attempting to stay outside of Distance one of THAT, and within Medium Range, to bomb the Gallant haven, correct?

Because for a "Direct Counter", that's an absolute corner case, I feel... The positioning has to be exact to get any measure of benefit from it... Whereas, really, if you were to try to argue it, Rhymer is a counter to black die anti-squadron on ships, and such upgrade cards as Point Defense Reroute and Quad Laser Turrets... Because those are directly countered by it.

Gallant Haven is incidentally affected... because there's nothing stopping them from just moving out of Haven Range to Jump your Squadrons, anyway...

you are correct i meant Gallant haven (i actually typed paragon again)

when AFs hit GH (i typed paragon yet again, its just a reflex) was all the rage locally.... So i discovered Rhymer.... I also went non ball centric with my load out of tie ints and howlrunner for all the attack dice and counter... once dengar hit it got way better.

plain and simple Rhymer is a tool. He is a very very good tool. I get that maybe you are tired of playing against said tool or you are tired of the same tool always being in your tool box but then my suggestion is either.... stop being a nail and be a screw (meaning your opponents need a new tool) or dont field him.

Hes good, hes really freaking good. Hes just a passive buff. passive buffs are always good. Just like dengar and howlrunner are passive buffs.... combined with how cheap things like TIEs and Ints generally are... you get more mileage out of the passive buffs.

If you are losing to rhymer... start designing a list to bust his ball.. you know what shreds firesprays and tie bombers? Interceptors with 6 attack dice.... is it a point heavy investment... sure. but when you kill 4 firesprays over 2 turns not only are you up almost 80pts... you also neutralized one of your opponents tools as either you then kill rhymer or hes running for his life while you can start your bombing runs.

people have been complaining about rhymer since wave 1... hes not going anywhere.

what other squadron builds do you suggest? 2 ties 1 bomber? lets say you take 5 triplets of that for 125pts... thats 15 bases... why not drop 1 tie... add rhymer.. and boom its simply better. you can have a ball of tie bombers in the center with 10 ties screening......

rhymer is to imperial fighters as butter is to literally anything......he simply makes it better.

So, I will close with stating - I do not neccessarily disagree with all of your points.

But we're going to have to work on your definition of "Direct Counter".

A Crutch is a model or card that is so good it will appear in all Tournament lists that rank the highest. Something that is so powerful or under-costed that people need to take it just to be competitive.

So does that sound like Rhymer or anything else?

But after Hara comes out this winter the Rebels will have their own Rhymer Ball.

So, I will close with stating - I do not neccessarily disagree with all of your points.

But we're going to have to work on your definition of "Direct Counter".

that is no where near the top half of things we should work on.....

i still think rhymer is/was the direct counter to gallant haven... i typed paragon again no idea why im stuck on this.

simply put.... STOP TELLING ME I CANT HAVE BUTTER!

A Crutch is a model or card that is so good it will appear in all Tournament lists that rank the highest. Something that is so powerful or under-costed that people need to take it just to be competitive.

So does that sound like Rhymer or anything else?

But after Hara comes out this winter the Rebels will have their own Rhymer Ball.

rhymer, TRCs, Demo, are all crutches...

crutches are bad for the game overall. I do not think anyone disagrees.

you have to hope FFG either releases things to counter them (directly or not) or designs around them (which I am confident they do).

I do think wave5/Corelia may finally take Rhymer out of 95% of the lists but once again... everything is better with butter and those VT-49s will probably be amazing with him.

I mean, to me, Gallant Haven is half-a-counter to a Rhymer Ball.

With it, on an AFMK-II with Ruthless Strats, QLTs, and a ConfireCommand and a Squadron Token, I plough right up next to the ball with a Y-Wing and fire away with Gleeeeeee, proccing as much damage as possible.

If I get the opportunity, I then bring other squadrons in afterwards, but that's all gravy...

because Bombers are gonna Bomb, right? Make 'em bomb. because if they don't Bomb, they're useless...

A Crutch is a model or card that is so good it will appear in all Tournament lists that rank the highest. Something that is so powerful or under-costed that people need to take it just to be competitive.

How is that the definition of a crutch?

A crutch is something that provides support but prevents you from performing at your best.

Raymus is a crutch as he offers you massive control benefits, but you can easily do just as well without him and spend the 7 points better.

rhymer, TRCs, Demo, are all crutches...

crutches are bad for the game overall. I do not think anyone disagrees.

I certainly disagree. But on certain points...

I mean...

Okay, let us take tose things... Rhymer, TRC, Demo, and remove them from the game completely...

Now the argument opens up that ECMs, ISDs, XI7s and Screed are all Crutches...

Without Rhymer, Dengar is totally now a Crutch if you want to play Imperial Bombers....

So do we remove them, too?

Where does it end?

i crutch the **** out of support officers.... those guys are money

Also, BergerFett:

YOU CAN HAVE YOUR **** BUTTER WHEN MY BLOOD PRESSURE IS NORMAL, AND NOT A MINUTE BEFOREHAND.

rhymer, TRCs, Demo, are all crutches...

crutches are bad for the game overall. I do not think anyone disagrees.

I certainly disagree. But on certain points...

I mean...

Okay, let us take tose things... Rhymer, TRC, Demo, and remove them from the game completely...

Now the argument opens up that ECMs, ISDs, XI7s and Screed are all Crutches...

Without Rhymer, Dengar is totally now a Crutch if you want to play Imperial Bombers....

So do we remove them, too?

Where does it end?

you aren't wrong. maybe crutches aren't bad for the game

what i meant was auto-includes.

I will catch some **** right here... but if you want to be a competitive Imp player I highly feel you need to run demo and rhymer in your list..... they are auto includes. TRCs feel like auto includes.

I do not play rebels, I feel Nym is now an auto include and the Falcon probably meets that criteria for me as well. based purely on experience and seeing what they do.

You don't make a 10 TIE, 5 Bomber list better going to a 10 TIE, 4 Bomber, 1 Rhymer list. The point of going 10/5 is separate your ships. Once you put Rhymer in you either ball up or spent 8 points to increase the threat range of just a few squadrons. The ball is the primary problem here.

Also, you're not diluting your force badly going with TIE fighters. They have respectable anti-ship stats and very good anti-squadron stats. If you don't live in a squadron focused meta then going in units of 1 TIE : 1 Bomber ups your anti-ship ratio at the expense of the anti-squadron. Mix n match to taste.

I will catch some **** right here... but if you want to be a competitive Imp player I highly feel you need to run demo and rhymer in your list..... they are auto includes. TRCs feel like auto includes.

I do not play rebels, I feel Nym is now an auto include and the Falcon probably meets that criteria for me as well. based purely on experience and seeing what they do.

You're right.

The attitude you have isn't unique, but its also starting to be considered by the masses as.... A little old.

Once again, we'll turn to pt106 and his double regional winning list to show neither Demo nor Rhymer.

You can counter with GenCon...

So its how do you define competitive, and how do you define auto-include.

Because you can state it with as much factual emphasis as you want, if you havn't defined your variables, its just noise.

You don't make a 10 TIE, 5 Bomber list better going to a 10 TIE, 4 Bomber, 1 Rhymer list. The point of going 10/5 is separate your ships. Once you put Rhymer in you either ball up or spent 8 points to increase the threat range of just a few squadrons. The ball is the primary problem here.

buttah!

I disagree thats fine. you can still split up and threaten mutliple areas... the nice thing about Rhymer is that he can just buff one pod... move on his turn and then another pod can activate and get buffed.

I ball up... plain and simple. if you wanna shred fighters instead of laying into my ship be my guest... fighters are ultimately disposable. you set your hornets nest and make your opponent choose. strong attack the enemy ship... or try and kill these **** bees? either way I win... shoot my ship my bees get to harass you. shoot my bees and my ship lives longer.

at its core armada is a game of decision making and the person who makes more wrong decisions generally loses.

even if i only ball up for 1 or 2 turns... its worth it to upgrade to rhymer.

or my opponent simply commits 30pts to kill a 16pt squdron stand that was buffing my interceptors so i still get to win squadron combat, i lost 16pts and im still going to harrier your ships.

But you still need intel to free your bombers from enemy squadrons..... and well you already have tie fighters to counteract the heavy of tie bombers so may as well make them tie advanceds..... and then adding Rhymer just makes it slightly better....

hmmmmm

I am not sure what your argument is. You basically say that running bombers with escorts and intel is a waste as you want more bombers. Then you say that you should be running 66% tie fighters. Literally the opposite of your argument.

TIE fighters are better or equal per point in anti-ship stats than Adv. or Intel ships, while being FAR better in anti-squadron. Meanwhile, you don't need to fly in a ball. Intel doesn't help much when spread out. But spread out I can avoid heavy ship flak while using the speed of my squadrons to their strength, concentrating on targets of MY choosing while avoiding the enemy squadrons.

I will catch some **** right here... but if you want to be a competitive Imp player I highly feel you need to run demo and rhymer in your list..... they are auto includes. TRCs feel like auto includes.

I do not play rebels, I feel Nym is now an auto include and the Falcon probably meets that criteria for me as well. based purely on experience and seeing what they do.

You're right.

The attitude you have isn't unique, but its also starting to be considered by the masses as.... A little old.

Once again, we'll turn to pt106 and his double regional winning list to show neither Demo nor Rhymer.

You can counter with GenCon...

So its how do you define competitive, and how do you define auto-include.

Because you can state it with as much factual emphasis as you want, if you havn't defined your variables, its just noise.

competitive:

give myself every opportunity to win the event

if i am going to be competitive for an event I will give myself every single tool i can to win that event that also fits within my moral code... meaning I will take demo I will take rhymer... I will not bully you during games or make the experience un-enjoyable to get in your head, and piss in your cheerios. I want to win but I want to beat you at your best. this happens too much in WMH, its called "gamesmenship" and its hot garbage, not even butter makes that better.

Auto-include:

something you have no reason not to take.

many upgrades do not fit this since there are a lot different uses for different types of turbo lasers for example.

Pound for Pound Pt for Pt Rhymers Value is too high not to take. He lets me play sloppy in a 5 round event.... he dictates what my opponent has to do on some level... he gives me a threat extension that is very very hard to counter with fighters, especially on speed 5 interceptors.... he will straight win me games when your last ship is out of range on 3 health and i have 3 squadrons left.... its corner case... its rare... but winning 7-3 is better than a 5-5 draw or loss.... for 16pts he is worth it every single time.

Demo straight breaks a core rule of the game.... that's strong no matter what game it is.. add in all the things you can do with upgrades on that ship and you have arguably the best burst DPS/glass cannon in the game. double/triple tap with APTs and 2 rams is 5 auto damage..... that's a ******* problem... Demo trades favorably... hes what on average 88-97pts (its been a while)... he can drop ISDs worh 130pts easily... its happened.. If demo was at Endor Ackbar would have yelled "focus all firepower on that gladiator star destroyer"

So if I am going to give myself every single tool i can to try and win an event... then I am going to take rhymer/demo. I took both in wave1 and did well for myself ending like 11-1 in tournament play. I dropped demo for another ISD cuz "historically accurate" and my win lose got much closer. part of that is my opponents getting better. Part of it is not having the tool that is Demo to catch rogue AFs late game or force my opponent to over comit in a multitude of ways.

If my goal is to win Armada worlds in May this coming year.... why would I not take rhymer and or demo if they continue to be arguably the best options pt for pt?

Auto-include:

something you have no reason not to take.

And I felt that 2ISD 5 activations strategy gave me a best shot for the regionals.

If my goal is to win Armada worlds in May this coming year.... why would I not take rhymer and or demo if they continue to be arguably the best options pt for pt?

Because you don't win with the best ships thrown together, you win with the strategy and the fleet that is built around that strategy. And there are Imperial strategies that don't synergize with Demo or Rhymer.

Because there is a world of difference between winning more often with them, and being a better player by winning without them.

that is what makes them "crutches"........

...

But who cares on my opinion, I've never won a tournament, and I certainly can't boast of my many victories.