I've been running triple Defenders for a couple of weeks now. And I've got a tournament comming up next weekend.

My list is

Vessery X7, Juke, Twin Ion Engine

Ryad X7, PTL, Twin Ion Engine

Delta X7

I've never faced any swarms with this list. So what do I do?

Just bum-rush, try to kill Howlrunner before the rest of the swarm shoots and hope I survive the onslaught?

Or do I try to break up the swarm? Split my forces and approach from different directions?

Advice from more experienced Defender players is appreciated.

I think you're okay jousting if you can joust through an asteroid field. This takes a few actions away from the Crack Swarm and gives you some cover for a few shots. I haven't done the hard math for expected outcomes at different ranges, though. My gut says you take the worse end of the deal on the opening turn, but after Howl is dead and Crack Shots are spent, your Defenders can almost run free.

Trying to flank it owuld be better than straight up jousting it. You should be able to flank with at least one ship, so you absolutely should.

I'd try to make a block with the Delta and have 1-2 differents vectors of approches with Ryad and Vessery. I would also try to force the swarm to commit into the a place where they'll have to get trough asteroids or make the battle where you want it to be. Try to kill howl as fast as you can.

Hit them at an angle, coming from the asteroid field. The swarm can't turn or K-turn as effectively as a defender can just K-turn, so play to your your strengths there. What you really want is the first combat to take place at range 3, because ryad's 5K will drop her behind the swarm. Vess may get blocked, but with a 3 forward and a lock from ryad, can probably vape a tie before it shoots at him Vessery's best defense is killing stuff before it fires.

The delta is your biggest weakness, as a good swarm pilot will melt it before it fires.

Ninja'd ^

No, do not joust.

I'm totally not your target audience, but from what I've seen, you want to take advantage of white that 4-K.

Ties can S-Loop once and hard turn, but if you slow-roll until you're able to 4-K to their rear or side, or anything out of arc, then you wreck a Tie a turn (at least).

Oh, you're running Ryad? She can 5-K, right? Boom. Done. Nailing the approach is key. You want to make sure you're going to clear the swarm, which is why I say no to jousting. Approach the swarm off center, force them to pick a target, and screech past them.

Ninja'd ^

No, do not joust.

I'm totally not your target audience, but from what I've seen, you want to take advantage of white that 4-K.

Ties can S-Loop once and hard turn, but if you slow-roll until you're able to 4-K to their rear or side, or anything out of arc, then you wreck a Tie a turn (at least).

Oh, you're running Ryad? She can 5-K, right? Boom. Done. Nailing the approach is key. You want to make sure you're going to clear the swarm, which is why I say no to jousting. Approach the swarm off center, force them to pick a target, and screech past them.

Rinzler is correct here; do not joust a Swarm. This is the Swarm's strength; especially with Crackshot. I am practicing and practicing my Swarm tactics and I love it when I get an opponent who wants to joust; love it. It's not just all of the 3 green dice (plus focus) you're going to have to chew thru if you joust, but it's the fact you're gonna be trying to hit one-on-one and the Swarm gets to attack multi-on-one. Plus, jousting will open you up to another asset the Swarm has, low PS blockers; if they get you stuck in multi-arc, they'll turn nasty.

Nice thing is, X7 Defenders, especially Ryad, can run circles around and swing right between TIEs....again, don't joust....unless you're playing me, haha.

I don't know if anyone has done the math since, but a good rule of thumb on howlrunner swarms used to be either take out Howlrunner or take out two other ties. Either of those reduced the effectiveness about the same amount.

With the speed of the defenders, I'd try and get the swarm to split by sending a flanker instead of jousting. Or pick off a tie at range 3 before the rest of the swarm engages. All tough things to do, but much easier in an asteroid field. Take the big rocks and deny the middle section of the board as best as you can!

I think if you're jousting you need to a) get a range 3 opening b) destroy a ship for no losses and c) get a good block the following round. Not the easiest thing to do.

One does not simply joust a crackswarm...

You are more than welcome to joust a crack swarm or any type of swarm. You will lose, but you are more than welcome to do it.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/228306-an-alternative-look-at-arc-dodgers-and-jousters/

If that doesn't allow you to answer your own question I'll do my best to.

You never joust a swarm with any list, that is their strength. You set up far side and test their pilot first and try to force them to fly through some stuff, then you engage it on your terms trying to limit how many arcs are able to engage any one of your ships, then you 4k over their head and win. Always kill Howlrunner.

I've been running triple Defenders for a couple of weeks now. And I've got a tournament comming up next weekend.

My list is

Vessery X7, Juke, Twin Ion Engine

Ryad X7, PTL, Twin Ion Engine

Delta X7

I've never faced any swarms with this list. So what do I do?

Just bum-rush, try to kill Howlrunner before the rest of the swarm shoots and hope I survive the onslaught?

Or do I try to break up the swarm? Split my forces and approach from different directions?

Advice from more experienced Defender players is appreciated.

Don't joust because one of the three defenders will be gone in the first round of combat. I play the same list as you and what I do is funnel them through the asteroids to get them to bump and I split off one of them to attack from the other side.

I think you're okay jousting if you can joust through an asteroid field. This takes a few actions away from the Crack Swarm and gives you some cover for a few shots. I haven't done the hard math for expected outcomes at different ranges, though. My gut says you take the worse end of the deal on the opening turn, but after Howl is dead and Crack Shots are spent, your Defenders can almost run free.

This.

All the people saying you cannot joust a swarm are, frankly, wrong. Although you do have to be smart about how you approach (flanking with one defender and/or bringing your defenders on different approach angles is good advice).

I've done it a few times. Proof is in the logs for the VASSAL league where I flew triple X-7 defenders first against Blairbunke's TIE swarm and then against' Dom Cairo's TIE swarm. And these are really good players who know what they're doing (so I think its safe to say I didn't just fluke it).

The fact is, if you use rocks to limit the swarms options a bit, you can get the positioning you need for your defenders to get their k-turns. Once that happens, the TIEs can't match your firepower/time on target.

Crack shot will kill one of your defenders most likely, but once its spent, you have 2 more defenders whose defenses are extremely difficult for 2 attack dice to get through.

Thanx for all the advice. Let's just hope I don't run into any swarms. But if I do I've got some (theoretical) meat on my bones.

About those vassal logs? Is it possible to watch them?

I think you're okay jousting if you can joust through an asteroid field. This takes a few actions away from the Crack Swarm and gives you some cover for a few shots. I haven't done the hard math for expected outcomes at different ranges, though. My gut says you take the worse end of the deal on the opening turn, but after Howl is dead and Crack Shots are spent, your Defenders can almost run free.

This.

All the people saying you cannot joust a swarm are, frankly, wrong. Although you do have to be smart about how you approach (flanking with one defender and/or bringing your defenders on different approach angles is good advice).

I've done it a few times. Proof is in the logs for the VASSAL league where I flew triple X-7 defenders first against Blairbunke's TIE swarm and then against' Dom Cairo's TIE swarm. And these are really good players who know what they're doing (so I think its safe to say I didn't just fluke it).

The fact is, if you use rocks to limit the swarms options a bit, you can get the positioning you need for your defenders to get their k-turns. Once that happens, the TIEs can't match your firepower/time on target.

Crack shot will kill one of your defenders most likely, but once its spent, you have 2 more defenders whose defenses are extremely difficult for 2 attack dice to get through.

You beat me to it, and with much better details.

I did some quick testing, and I think triple Defenders can totally joust a crack swarm*. You will eventually lose a defender, but very likely force nearly all cracks out. Basically, 2 full/nearly full x7 defenders against 4-5 TIE's without crack favors the defenders.

*details are important, as blade_mercurial noted.

Thanx for all the advice. Let's just hope I don't run into any swarms. But if I do I've got some (theoretical) meat on my bones.

About those vassal logs? Is it possible to watch them?

They are here:

http://xwingvassal.challonge.com/deepcore

You can find them either by scrolling sideways through the 'matches' (green button) or by clicking on individual 'W' or 'L' buttons in the 'match history' column

Ya, triple defenders are hard on a tie swarm. The game will play out like this: The swarm will kill one Defender and spend all of its crackshots in the process. The remaining defenders will have killed howlrunner at the least. From there the 2 dice attacks of the swarm will hardly touch a tokened up defender. So the swarm player might grind the second defender with blocking and volume fire, but the 3rd defender will be left full health with, at best, 2 ties. That defender wins that late game every time.

They do seem to come out pretty well if your dice do well. Jousted 5 ties vs 2 defenders. Got the better of them.

I think you're okay jousting if you can joust through an asteroid field. This takes a few actions away from the Crack Swarm and gives you some cover for a few shots. I haven't done the hard math for expected outcomes at different ranges, though. My gut says you take the worse end of the deal on the opening turn, but after Howl is dead and Crack Shots are spent, your Defenders can almost run free.

This.

All the people saying you cannot joust a swarm are, frankly, wrong. Although you do have to be smart about how you approach (flanking with one defender and/or bringing your defenders on different approach angles is good advice).

I've done it a few times. Proof is in the logs for the VASSAL league where I flew triple X-7 defenders first against Blairbunke's TIE swarm and then against' Dom Cairo's TIE swarm. And these are really good players who know what they're doing (so I think its safe to say I didn't just fluke it).

The fact is, if you use rocks to limit the swarms options a bit, you can get the positioning you need for your defenders to get their k-turns. Once that happens, the TIEs can't match your firepower/time on target.

Crack shot will kill one of your defenders most likely, but once its spent, you have 2 more defenders whose defenses are extremely difficult for 2 attack dice to get through.

Your statement is wrong. You're saying you have to be smart about jousting and move through the rocks and come in at a flanking position which is exactly the opposite of jousting. So no you can't joust, you have to break up the swarm through the rocks so it can't bring every shot to bear on your ships, which means you are not jousting it.

I've been running triple Defenders for a couple of weeks now. And I've got a tournament comming up next weekend.

My list is

Vessery X7, Juke, Twin Ion Engine

Ryad X7, PTL, Twin Ion Engine

Delta X7

I've never faced any swarms with this list. So what do I do?

Just bum-rush, try to kill Howlrunner before the rest of the swarm shoots and hope I survive the onslaught?

Or do I try to break up the swarm? Split my forces and approach from different directions?

Advice from more experienced Defender players is appreciated.

Since I'm not playing that Saturday Rasmus I feel like I can give you my suggestion =)

I'd try not to joust the swarm along one of the edges. If you can se up a joust through a dense asteroid field and make sure the swarm can't come at you three ships line abreast you should have a decent chance but I think running interference with the Delta might be even better.

Try not to fly your ships in one close formation but have them approach the swarm from two angles, making sure the K-turns still are open for you might be the best option (Ryad's K-turns should help here).

Crunch the Math-Wing numbers, it's just basic probability:


Joust Opens at Range 1: TIE/Ds have the better exchange only 3.47% of the time
Joust Opens at Range 2: TIE/Ds have the better exchange only 36.76% of the time
Joust Opens at Range 3: TIE/Ds have the better exchange 68.66% of the time

Range Assumptions: Assumed all TIE/Ds and all Crack Swarm ships are in the same range bands (ie, all three TIE/Ds are R1 (or R2 or R3) from all TIEs)
Better Exchange is defined as doing more damage-per-point than the opponent.
Damage-Per-Point = (# Damage * Point Cost of Target). For example, two damage dealt to a Crack Black TIE (15 points) is 2*15 = 30 DPPs

Action Assumptions*: TIE/Ds all have Focus+Evade, Vess and Ryad have TL on Howl (note: this is unlikely for Range 3 exchanges given PS movement differences, but still assumed), Crack Swarm all have Focus and Howl reroll
Spending Assumptions: Focus only spent offensively if total hits would equal 2 or greater; Focus and Evade spent defensively first opportunity
Target Priority Assumptions: TIE/Ds shoot for Howl first, Crack Swarm shoots for Delta first
Obstruction Assumptions: Assumed there were no obstructions to attacks



*Edit: this might result in an under-performance of the BSP attacks, as they held Focus tokens with a BLANK+EYE roll result (or BLANK+BLANK+EYE at R1) though they could have opted to spend them despite the Delta's looming attack.

Do you mean tie/x7?

Cool, I have no idea how to do that! But, doesn't the assumptions look a bit off? Surely the Ties would spend focus offensively even only 1 eye to hit (since only delta is shooting afterwards, and at this time it should be clear who delta is shooting anyway, so at least all but that guy shoud just spend away). And why would the Ties attack the delta first?