In the last vassal tourney which included wave 3, I ran Ackbar MC30s with just tycho for cover, and I was able to utilise speed and a well timed Tycho to dodge pretty much all squadron fire.

The fundamentals remain, kill the carrier kill the squads. If you run with this concept, its very easy to attack from outside red range, with either speed 4 or speed 3 and engine techs, to one shot many ships. Squadrons are good, but they can be dodged with relative ease, even Rhymer. Its just requires a more flexible mindset. Spread the play out, make them spread. Once you prevent them using a ball against you, imperials squadrons become significantly weaker.

Most times Tycho didnt even die. Just acted like a sheep dog pushes squadrons away from my fleet or preferentially towards Admonition.

If you want to run your ships in a tight formation, and dont have lots of hull or other damage mitigation measures then you will need squads as you are predictable and weak to squads. Play with a free style and its much harder for players to bring lots of firepower against you in one place.

This was as well not the point. It is just that, you will not be able to build a squadronless fleet against a fleet that know it will not face squadrons.

The point was: Squadrons are to good to be ignored.

*Sigh*

I was prepared to run Clon's zombie fleet (Rieekan, CR90B: Jaina, ET, 6x CR90B with ET, 1xCR90b) for the challenge and would expect to table a fleet with full squadrons pretty fast. So don't assume things, however this is not the point. What matters is that how the fleet behaves against likely opponents. There is a counter for every fleet.

The 100% squadrons win vs no squadrons would be true if games weren't limited to 6 rounds, no objective points, and (mostly) that the rules didn't say you table your opponent for 400pts if you take out his ships.

If you face 134 points of squadrons go for the ships controlling them as they will be severely under-powered to allow for that level of squadrons

I have a task for anyone who say you can still win without squadrons.

Build a list without any squadrons, who will have to fight a fleet with full squadrons.

I will do the counterpart. A fleet with full squadrons who will have to fight a fleet without squadrons.

Let’s make a bet who will win.

I say 100% of the time the list with full squadrons.

Just because 13 Tie Bomber + Rhymer + Bomber commando Center are killing the ships way to fast. And without any chance to fire back. Even a VSD can go down in one round.

You will have to add some squadrons to stop the enemy squadrons.

And this is the problem. There is no stone/scissor/paper concept when it comes to squadrons vs ships. The only one that can stop squadrons really well are other squadrons.

You have to find a good mix between anti-ship squadrons and anti-squadron squadrons.

This is why the 8x YT-2400 are so good. They are both. Black dice against ships and 4 blue dice against squadrons. And on top they are speed 4, with 6 HP and rogue.

And it will end up being very skill-dependent. The problem with your challenge is that you'll build your fleet knowing that you'll be flying against a squadronless fleet and therefore will do a specific counter that is very unlikely to be encountered in a tournament.

Rhymer+13 Bombers will be shredded even by a medium size fighter force.

And I'm not afraid of 8x YT2400 builds as they don't have enough damage potential over time.

EDIT: However, if you insist on these terms, I'll take the challenge. You may end up being unpleasantly surprised though.

And the other is knowing that he will face 134 points in squadrons. So both sides are even. You just supported my statement that squadrons are necessary. Just for the strange player who is coming with only (or a lot of) bombers.

This was as well not the point. It is just that, you will not be able to build a squadronless fleet against a fleet that know it will not face squadrons.

The point was: Squadrons are to good to be ignored.

And about the 8x YT-2400. I never said to be afraid of it. Or that it is the "ultimate" squadron list. They are just the perfect mix of anti-ship and anti-squadron. Like the A-Wings were in Wave 1. If the opponent is bringing squadrons, they can deal with it. And if he is not bringing any squadrons, they are perfect to deal with the ships. And on top, you dont have to worry about them and having to use squadron commands all the time.

And just a little sidenote. On our nationals was a list with 10 Bombers and two Jumpmasters. He won his first game 10-1 (no squadron list) and the second 9-2. Just because some thought "squadrons are worthless" or "4 A-Wings are enough squadron cover".

Always count in the strange guy with the insane fleet. He was lucky to not face someone with a strong squadron list. But it was a really strong list against anyone without or with only a few squadrons.

No, it not even, one side is making a fleet (only bombers) that you would never see, can a no squadron fleet beat one that is built only to go against no squadron fleets, maybe but it would be hard. Now if one side built a full squadron fleet but with a mix of fighters and bombers (or only fighters as you see in my area) that would be a different story. So I do not think that just because paper beats rock means a hole lot. If you bring you full squadron points in TiE Bombers, and I bring my hole squadron points in A-wings/TiE Interceptors I would own your fleet as it is built to counter yours. Does that mean it is better or worse no, just that it is built to counter the one.

A fleet may succeed without squadrons, but it will never succeed without crutches!!!

That is the idea behind the Raiders.

Too bad Raiders are a joke.

Well a ship without Red dice is to be lacking. To me a ship with blue and black dice is worse off than a ship with red and black dice just because of the range radius. Now the raider does have a double anti fighter dice value but so does Gladiators at only 10 points more.

In the last vassal tourney which included wave 3, I ran Ackbar MC30s with just tycho for cover, and I was able to utilise speed and a well timed Tycho to dodge pretty much all squadron fire.

The fundamentals remain, kill the carrier kill the squads. If you run with this concept, its very easy to attack from outside red range, with either speed 4 or speed 3 and engine techs, to one shot many ships. Squadrons are good, but they can be dodged with relative ease, even Rhymer. Its just requires a more flexible mindset. Spread the play out, make them spread. Once you prevent them using a ball against you, imperials squadrons become significantly weaker.

Most times Tycho didnt even die. Just acted like a sheep dog pushes squadrons away from my fleet or preferentially towards Admonition.

If you want to run your ships in a tight formation, and dont have lots of hull or other damage mitigation measures then you will need squads as you are predictable and weak to squads. Play with a free style and its much harder for players to bring lots of firepower against you in one place.

Ginkapo, do you have any log files of those matches? I don't remember seeing them in the tourney threads. Good stuff.