A fleet may be able too. So far I can't

I suppose it might; it really depends on what you're going up against. If I was going to field a ship only fleet I would certainly be looking at ships that have decent anti squadron dice, perhaps even going as far as assigning a dedicated AA ship that would maneuver itself to deal out as much anti squadron shooting as it could do.

That is the idea behind the Raiders.

That is the idea behind the Raiders.

Which is a problem if you're playing as the Rebels. I'm wondering if the Nebulon B would be an acceptable replacement. Two blue anti squadron dice on the Escort variant and a nice wide side arc to catch as many squadron as possible.

Yes and No.

Its more expensive. And it lacks the ability to reliably improve its anti-squadron capability beyond its baseline.

The strength is not just the fact a Raider has two dice... But its because they have super-reliable Black-Black, or Blue-Black, and can tag on Ordnance Experts to Reroll the Blacks if need by, which additionally increases its Anti-Ship compliment...

Plus its speed, and its maneuver...

The Raider just ends up being many, many many layers more efficient than an Neb-B, for the price...

Combat flotillas and Toryn Farr

Here is my take on a squadron-less Imperial Fleet:

------------------------------

quadron-less Fun
Author: SoonerTed

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 399/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush
Navigation Objective: Minefields

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Assault Concussion Missiles ( 7 points)
= 60 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Assault Concussion Missiles ( 7 points)
= 60 total ship cost

Raider-II Class Corvette (48 points)
- Fire-Control Team ( 2 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Ion Cannon Batteries ( 5 points)
= 60 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)
- Warlord ( 8 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)
- Assault Concussion Missiles ( 7 points)
= 128 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Concussion Missiles ( 7 points)
= 91 total ship cost

Card view link

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

Here is my take on a squadron-less Imperial Fleet:

It can deal with the squadrons all right, but how will it get the ships?

Here is my take on a squadron-less Imperial Fleet:

It can deal with the squadrons all right, but how will it get the ships?

The Warlord, Demolisher, and Raiders with the ACM's. The Raider-II doubles as a flotilla hunter.

Yes but you will have to rely on ships with double anti-fighter dice value. Even damage from an anti-fighter screen like 4 TIE fighters start to stack up. You don't have to put squadrons in your fleet but at the very least you should plan for encountering them.

The Raider just ends up being many, many many layers more efficient than an Neb-B, for the price...

Obviously the issue still being that the Rebels don't have access to the Raider. A Nebulon B with Toryn Farr in support is probably the best the Rebels can do IMO.

The AF MKII-A is a solid anti-squadron platform, if a little pricey points wise, as is the MC-80 Command Cruiser, again, pricey. I find the Neb-B to be to flimsy for a squadron killer.

The AF MKII-A is a solid anti-squadron platform, if a little pricey points wise, as is the MC-80 Command Cruiser, again, pricey. I find the Neb-B to be to flimsy for a squadron killer.

I tend to find that the Neb-B is too flimsy full stop. I agree that the Assault Frigate A is pretty solid and that it's maybe a bit too expensive of a ship to build towards a dedicate AA job. The Rebels really seem to be lacking in this department at the moment. I would probably say that the Rebels could just go for ships like the MC80, Assault Frigate A and the Nebulon B Escort Frigate and just try to interlock their anti squadron defence. With Torryn helping out even a couple of double blue dice anti squadron shots would be enough to take out a TIE fightrer.

Overall, I think any ship build trying to use anti-squadron needs to use interlocking arcs of fire to succeed

That is the idea behind the Raiders.

Too bad Raiders are a joke.

Overall, I think any ship build trying to use anti-squadron needs to use interlocking arcs of fire to succeed

If you wanted to take out squadron as quickly as possible then I'd agree that you'd want a co-ordinated barrage. It would really depend on what your opponent is fielding and whether maneuvering to get those arcs might leave your ships vulnerable. I have to admit that I don't think you can afford to ignore the squadron 'game' especially with the rogue stuff from wave two.

Just as the question asks, in today's Armada, can a fleet succeed without squadron support.

I believe it can, but the ships in the fleet need good anti-squadron built in and must be able to support each other.

It can. BUT... A properly deployed Major Rhymer led Firespray blob (aka Rhymerball) will have its way with any squadronless list in a nonstatic Objective. Nonstatic meaning there arent places on the board that need to be secured ala Intel Sweep vs Minefields.

If you face off in a situation like that, you will have no fun and just may start to think poorly of your opponent 'gaming it', when the true source of frustration comes from your OWN fleet build.

It is NOT a safe enviornment for Squadronless builds. Yes, you can find favorable matchups. Just be cognizant of your gamble.

I have a task for anyone who say you can still win without squadrons.

Build a list without any squadrons, who will have to fight a fleet with full squadrons.

I will do the counterpart. A fleet with full squadrons who will have to fight a fleet without squadrons.

Let’s make a bet who will win.

I say 100% of the time the list with full squadrons.

Just because 13 Tie Bomber + Rhymer + Bomber commando Center are killing the ships way to fast. And without any chance to fire back. Even a VSD can go down in one round.

You will have to add some squadrons to stop the enemy squadrons.

And this is the problem. There is no stone/scissor/paper concept when it comes to squadrons vs ships. The only one that can stop squadrons really well are other squadrons.

You have to find a good mix between anti-ship squadrons and anti-squadron squadrons.

This is why the 8x YT-2400 are so good. They are both. Black dice against ships and 4 blue dice against squadrons. And on top they are speed 4, with 6 HP and rogue.

And also, in wave 4, exorbitantly expensive.

This is why the 8x YT-2400 are so good. They are both. Black dice against ships and 4 blue dice against squadrons. And on top they are speed 4, with 6 HP and rogue.

I have a task for anyone who say you can still win without squadrons.

Build a list without any squadrons, who will have to fight a fleet with full squadrons.

I will do the counterpart. A fleet with full squadrons who will have to fight a fleet without squadrons.

Let’s make a bet who will win.

I say 100% of the time the list with full squadrons.

Just because 13 Tie Bomber + Rhymer + Bomber commando Center are killing the ships way to fast. And without any chance to fire back. Even a VSD can go down in one round.

You will have to add some squadrons to stop the enemy squadrons.

And this is the problem. There is no stone/scissor/paper concept when it comes to squadrons vs ships. The only one that can stop squadrons really well are other squadrons.

You have to find a good mix between anti-ship squadrons and anti-squadron squadrons.

This is why the 8x YT-2400 are so good. They are both. Black dice against ships and 4 blue dice against squadrons. And on top they are speed 4, with 6 HP and rogue.

And it will end up being very skill-dependent. The problem with your challenge is that you'll build your fleet knowing that you'll be flying against a squadronless fleet and therefore will do a specific counter that is very unlikely to be encountered in a tournament.

Rhymer+13 Bombers will be shredded even by a medium size fighter force.

And I'm not afraid of 8x YT2400 builds as they don't have enough damage potential over time.

EDIT: However, if you insist on these terms, I'll take the challenge. You may end up being unpleasantly surprised though.

Better question is why play without squadrons?

Between rogue and floatillas, squadrons are so easy to integrate into a fleet without decidcated support or even a drop in ship cou.t for activation superiority

Better question is why play without squadrons?

Between rogue and floatillas, squadrons are so easy to integrate into a fleet without decidcated support or even a drop in ship cou.t for activation superiority

Better question is why play without squadrons?

Between rogue and floatillas, squadrons are so easy to integrate into a fleet without decidcated support or even a drop in ship cou.t for activation superiority

I suppose to catch out people who go for anti-squadron squadron builds?

I have a task for anyone who say you can still win without squadrons.

Build a list without any squadrons, who will have to fight a fleet with full squadrons.

I will do the counterpart. A fleet with full squadrons who will have to fight a fleet without squadrons.

Let’s make a bet who will win.

I say 100% of the time the list with full squadrons.

Just because 13 Tie Bomber + Rhymer + Bomber commando Center are killing the ships way to fast. And without any chance to fire back. Even a VSD can go down in one round.

You will have to add some squadrons to stop the enemy squadrons.

And this is the problem. There is no stone/scissor/paper concept when it comes to squadrons vs ships. The only one that can stop squadrons really well are other squadrons.

You have to find a good mix between anti-ship squadrons and anti-squadron squadrons.

This is why the 8x YT-2400 are so good. They are both. Black dice against ships and 4 blue dice against squadrons. And on top they are speed 4, with 6 HP and rogue.

And it will end up being very skill-dependent. The problem with your challenge is that you'll build your fleet knowing that you'll be flying against a squadronless fleet and therefore will do a specific counter that is very unlikely to be encountered in a tournament.

Rhymer+13 Bombers will be shredded even by a medium size fighter force.

And I'm not afraid of 8x YT2400 builds as they don't have enough damage potential over time.

EDIT: However, if you insist on these terms, I'll take the challenge. You may end up being unpleasantly surprised though.

And the other is knowing that he will face 134 points in squadrons. So both sides are even. You just supported my statement that squadrons are necessary. Just for the strange player who is coming with only (or a lot of) bombers.

This was as well not the point. It is just that, you will not be able to build a squadronless fleet against a fleet that know it will not face squadrons.

The point was: Squadrons are to good to be ignored.

And about the 8x YT-2400. I never said to be afraid of it. Or that it is the "ultimate" squadron list. They are just the perfect mix of anti-ship and anti-squadron. Like the A-Wings were in Wave 1. If the opponent is bringing squadrons, they can deal with it. And if he is not bringing any squadrons, they are perfect to deal with the ships. And on top, you dont have to worry about them and having to use squadron commands all the time.

And just a little sidenote. On our nationals was a list with 10 Bombers and two Jumpmasters. He won his first game 10-1 (no squadron list) and the second 9-2. Just because some thought "squadrons are worthless" or "4 A-Wings are enough squadron cover".

Always count in the strange guy with the insane fleet. He was lucky to not face someone with a strong squadron list. But it was a really strong list against anyone without or with only a few squadrons.

EDIT: However, if you insist on these terms, I'll take the challenge. You may end up being unpleasantly surprised though.

I'll take it too with one caveat, I get to fly Tycho. Just Tycho.