Just as the question asks, in today's Armada, can a fleet succeed without squadron support.

I believe it can, but the ships in the fleet need good anti-squadron built in and must be able to support each other.

Look at Pt106's build, two ISD 1's and three raiders. 0 squadrons. 2 regional championship wins. I've played it a good bit myself and let me tell you three raiders make short work of a squadron ball

I was looking at an ISD-I, 2 x Gladiator-II and 2 x Raider-I

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 394/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
= 140 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Insidious ( 3 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 74 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 71 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 53 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 56 total ship cost

Well the answer to your question is: yes, because not every fleet out there is a bomber-heavy fleet. Heck you might play against another no squad fleet!

Now I think the question you might really be asking is: can a no squadron fleet succeed against a squadron (bomber) heavy fleet? Or are you interested in comparing performance against the scariest possible bomber fleet?

I will also say without at least enough squadrons to tie up enemy squadrons, a no squadron fleet is even less forgiving than it was in Wave 2, mostly due to flotilla survivability.

Well the answer to your question is: yes, because not every fleet out there is a bomber-heavy fleet. Heck you might play against another no squad fleet!

Now I think the question you might really be asking is: can a no squadron fleet succeed against a squadron (bomber) heavy fleet? Or are you interested in comparing performance against the scariest possible bomber fleet?

I'm really thinking along the lines of a squadron heavy opponent, but a friend runs a 10 Y-wing fleet, but I think the key there is kill his ships.....

The biggest problem that going no squadrons presents is placement advantage at the start of the game. It is usually pretty easy to place in a way that makes some of the ships of a no squadron build irrelevant.

I think a bigger question is what do we mean by "succeed." In the hands of a skilled player, just about any build can thrash the less skilled players. I can straight up beat less skilled players when they're running lists that are full of direct counters to what I'm running. Put an experienced and skilled player in charge of that counter and I'm the one getting thrashed. PT's Inquisition list reflects this. He's a good player. He did win those two regional and made the top 8 at GenCon. I'd call that a success. But by that measurement, a whole lot of other lists were also successful. My guess is that the Imps will have an easier time running no squadron builds than rebels, but you could probably still come up with the right mix of light squads and flak on a Rebel list and see it do well.

Welp, 6 b-wings can throw out 15.75 near indefensible, average damage over just 2 activations per turn on to a ship, spiking as high as 27!... so could you take a no squads list? Sure... but as far as the rebels are concerned, why would you?!

I run heavy (120+) screens as rebels almost exclusively. When I don't, it is to run some crazy fleet design to throw people off.

The next one will be a Rieekan Regenerating Home One with 2 Liberties. Everything with engine techs. My big worry is a Bwing/Yavaris type fleet with crazy bomber strength.

I think against any fleet with low bomber strength, it will do fine though. So Im on the fence about fleets with no squads, but leaning towards not thinking they are a good idea.

Anything is possible. But against a bomber-heavy fleet the odds are stacked against a fleet with no squadrons for screening.

Just 3 bombers can burn down a Raider in a single turn. The raiders will only get to use AA weaponry if the enemy ignores them while they gets into position.

I don't run that many squadrons if ever....never had a problem, even against bomber heavy fleets. But I haven't had many games with the new waves, so it's still to be seen if this still holds true.

It is possible bUT with rebelsome it leaves a lot of their best weapons off the table and with the empire almost all rebel fighters are bombers. This might change with wave five but right now captial ships have no real hard counter to fighters except other fighters

In wave 2 you could. Some bomber list/scenarios could cause problems, but if you picked good scenarios on your part (as either player) you wouldn't get suck in any no-win situations.

Wave 3/4 make it a lot harder, the ability to aa fire down a bomber squad while the carrier ships hide is much tougher when they can bcc, having only a cheap flotilla in blitz range, and additionally they can go all-in against you except for a flotilla with their commander running away, which is a bad scenario. Also targeting scramblers can mitigate a significant amount of damage if you are blitzing.

It still really depends on what you are more likely to face in whatever tourney scene you participate in. It's not so bleak to say never do it, but taking no squads to a major tourney or into a real bomber heavy meta is a bit of a handicap.

I think the squadron-to-ship capabilities have seen a drastic increase in wave 3+4, whereas ship-to-squadron (Flak) has seen nothing except Kallus, who is only useful against Aces. So from my perspective, going squadron-less has become more risky with the new waves. Possible? Sure, even possible to catch somebody by surprise with an activation-heavy non-squadron list and win big, but the odds have become smaller. Flotillas also mean that carrier builds dont have to necessarily be at activation disadvantage or less manouverable anymore.

I don't run that many squadrons if ever....never had a problem, even against bomber heavy fleets. But I haven't had many games with the new waves, so it's still to be seen if this still holds true.

I have switched to fewer and fewer squadrons as time has gone on. My current fleet has only a small handful of scum fighters, and even then sometimes I play with none.

Short answer: yes

Long answer: It's harder to do in Wave 3/4 compared to Wave2, but it is still possible and viable. What helps: High-hull ships, 2 dice AS, dedicated AS upgrades (I tested QLT with a squadronless fleet at NOVA and found it to be a solid performer, add Agent Kallus to taste), Targeting Scramblers. Also, the ability to quickly and reliably dispatch flotillas is essential.

I recently switched from a 2 ISD Rhymerball build to a 2 ISD 2 Raider build and haven't lost with it yet. I haven't gone up against another Imperial fleet with it yet though. I am supposed to get a game in tonight against an Imp player though so we'll see how it holds up. Agent Kallus certainly becomes a must take with it.

Honestly. If i see a squadronless list against my Tie Bomber list, i say thanks. I dont have to worry about enemy squadrons, and can fully focus on the ships. And with 8 Tie Bombers and bomber commando centers, even ISDs will go down really fast (2 Rounds if i dont have to worry about enemy squadrons). With luck two raider in one round.

Really, i dont see squadronless lists to be this stable anymore. It will work against a low squadron list (4-6 Squadrons) but not against a heavy 134 point squad list, with a main focus on killing ships. They are dancing in front of the ships, and these ships need to much time to kill the squadrons. Kallus is worthless against the mass of non unique squadrons.

Especially with Rhymer, who is even attacking out of the black anti squadron dice range. Or the Yavaris, who basicly just add 3 more squadrons.

Or is worst case, a Luke with Adar and Yavaris. Who is attacking 3 times most likely with the support of a bomber commando center. He can can take down Raiders, CR90, MC30, even Nebulon B and Gladiators in one round. Can you really risk to not stop him with a few squadrons?

These are all great answers folks.

Honestly. If i see a squadronless list against my Tie Bomber list, i say thanks. I dont have to worry about enemy squadrons, and can fully focus on the ships. And with 8 Tie Bombers and bomber commando centers, even ISDs will go down really fast (2 Rounds if i dont have to worry about enemy squadrons). With luck two raider in one round.

Really, i dont see squadronless lists to be this stable anymore. It will work against a low squadron list (4-6 Squadrons) but not against a heavy 134 point squad list, with a main focus on killing ships. They are dancing in front of the ships, and these ships need to much time to kill the squadrons. Kallus is worthless against the mass of non unique squadrons.

Especially with Rhymer, who is even attacking out of the black anti squadron dice range. Or the Yavaris, who basicly just add 3 more squadrons.

Or is worst case, a Luke with Adar and Yavaris. Who is attacking 3 times most likely with the support of a bomber commando center. He can can take down Raiders, CR90, MC30, even Nebulon B and Gladiators in one round. Can you really risk to not stop him with a few squadrons?

Lets make it clear - squadronless fleets is a niche play, however it is a solid play. The way I see it, 8 Bombers/bomber equivalent is a hard matchup but it is manageable. Essentially what needs to happen: after one round of shooting BCC should be in attack range and die, then its either kill the carriers (as uncontrolled bombers are much easier to manage with navigates) or mass flak to win the damage race.

To drop 2 Motti Raiders in one trun, bombers need to be extremely lucky, I think. And attacking the raider means that they don't attack high-value target.(And I'm not sold on multiple AS Raiders for Wave4, as they do lack AS range, so flotillas may be a better play)

Kallus with QLT is a counter to Yavaris aces (especially Luke/Keyan), however it needs to be on a high-hull ship to make himself effective over time.

So let's move the goal post slightly, can a list work with very minimal squadron support to aid the ships in tying down the enemy squadrons and what are the advantages and disadvantages of doing so?

Example fleet below.

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 391/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Impetuous ( 4 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 65 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Insidious ( 3 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 74 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 53 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
= 140 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Suppressor ( 4 points)
= 27 total ship cost

2 Aggressor Assault Fighters ( 32 points)

I’ve noticed a trend that when you see someone saying yes a squadron less fleet can win they generally looking at older data. Regional championships from pre wave 3-4 release, and games from before 3-4 came out.

Current, I’m not going to say a squadron less fleet couldn’t win, but it would require some luck in your drops and some skill in your play. More than you would need with a balanced force.

I feel that if you're putting kallus on a ship it should have the retrofit that gives it counter. Because he works with that, right?

I feel that if you're putting kallus on a ship it should have the retrofit that gives it counter. Because he works with that, right?

I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)

- Impetuous ( 4 points)

- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

= 65 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)

- Insidious ( 3 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

= 74 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

= 53 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

= 140 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)

- Suppressor ( 4 points)

= 27 total ship cost

2 Aggressor Assault Fighters ( 32 points)

Expanded Hangar bay is a waste for this build (as well as APT). I would also think about bumping ISD to ISD2 with gunnery teams and QLT.

I’ve noticed a trend that when you see someone saying yes a squadron less fleet can win they generally looking at older data. Regional championships from pre wave 3-4 release, and games from before 3-4 came out.

Current, I’m not going to say a squadron less fleet couldn’t win, but it would require some luck in your drops and some skill in your play. More than you would need with a balanced force.