Hello all,

Was curious on your thoughts on if a ship had 2 feedback arrays could they deal 2 damage and take 2 ion/damage? The way Recon Specialist is setup allows them to take 2 additional focus if you are running 2 of them so that's where my basis for double feedback array being a thing

Pretty sure the answer is No, its "instead of attacking" and you only get to attack once, so can only use one of them.

The FAQ states: "When using Feedback Array, during the Combat phase, you cannot have performed any attacks this phase before you became the active ship and cannot perform any attacks this phase after you became the active ship."

So it would fall under the "once per opportunity" rule limiting you to only one opportunity making a second Feedback Array redundant.

... making a second Feedback Array redundant.

By "redundant", do you mean "immune to Boba Fett" ?

... making a second Feedback Array redundant.

By "redundant", do you mean "immune to Boba Fett" ?

Well, seeing as he can somehow pry the nameplate off a ship in space, it seems nothing is immune to Mr Fett.

I disagree with it falling under the once per opportunity clause, because then the Recon Specialist example would be invalid as well, and too an extend also denies other triggers that occur at the same time such as whisper+ACD+FCS

Under card abilities in the rules reference, bullet #6, it basically says that a ship with multiple cards can trigger them, at the prooer time if they don't require an action to trigger. There's an example in the FAQ dealing with this and the example given is stacking two mercenary copilots.

I'm kind of leaning to being able to trip it twice. It will probably get FAQ'd in the next release and we'll be seeing more questions come popping up. This may not be the intent but I think RAW allows it.

I disagree with it falling under the once per opportunity clause, because then the Recon Specialist example would be invalid as well, and too an extend also denies other triggers that occur at the same time such as whisper+ACD+FCS

I actually think two Recon Specialists should be invalid under the "once per opportunity" rule, but FFG decided to rule otherwise. I think it's one of those "because we said so" scenarios, because under Card Abilities, surely it would fall under bullet point 6 because it requires an action to trigger.

"If a ship is equipped with more than one copy of the same Upgrade card that does not require an action to trigger the card’s ability, it can trigger each copy of that card at the specified timing."

As for Whisper with ACD & FCS, there's no conflict there at all. You choose the order of resolution of all three abilities. The rule is once per opportunity, not one per opportunity.

Under card abilities in the rules reference, bullet #6, it basically says that a ship with multiple cards can trigger them, at the prooer time if they don't require an action to trigger. There's an example in the FAQ dealing with this and the example given is stacking two mercenary copilots.

I'm kind of leaning to being able to trip it twice. It will probably get FAQ'd in the next release and we'll be seeing more questions come popping up. This may not be the intent but I think RAW allows it.

Totally forgot about merc copilot actually, I'll have to go look at that ruling. Are there any other upgrades that this would apply to? Deadman's switch and pre nerf tactician is are other upgrades can think of but what else?

I could see them making the upgrade limited as an easy way to fix

Edit double post

I think the other thing people are forgetting is that Feedback is a replacement effect, as in do X instead of Y

In this case FA prevents you from attacking at all this turn, so "attacking" as a singular entity can only be replaced by a single feedback Array effect.

I think the other thing people are forgetting is that Feedback is a replacement effect, as in do X instead of Y

In this case FA prevents you from attacking at all this turn, so "attacking" as a singular entity can only be replaced by a single feedback Array effect.

I don't think that is a very strong argument against equipping two FA's. It also prevents Dengar's ability to activate, which would be a second attack. There's also game mechanics that override other rules like performing free actions while on an asteroid.

Since it's not an action, and doesn't require an action to trigger, the rules as written seem to indicate that it is possible to equip two FA's. As mentioned above, it may be declared as "Limited" which would end the discussion. It might be in the next FAQ to be released.

So I dug around a bit in the rules and FAQ, and took another close look at the upgrade itself.

Theory 1:

We may use two feedback arrays to deal damage twice. This is justified by the rules covering use of upgrades, the player being able to activate in the order they choose. This is all in the rule book.

Theory 2:

We can only use feedback array once because it happens instead of our attack, and we can only attack once. When we look at the card itself, it reads," During the combat phase, instead of performing any attacks you may..." Effectively, this mean that we forfeit all other attacks during the combat phase in order to deal this one damage.

My conclusion:

I don't believe the idea that we are spending our attack to use this upgrade is the best interpretation. I believe, after looking at it in the context of the rules and the card itself, that forfeiting the attacks is not the cost of the ability. Rather, we are choosing to deal damage in a different way. The cost of FA is receiving one Ion token and one damage. The opportunity to resolve the card is when we become the active ship during the combat phase. Each card normally resolves once per opportunity in the order of the players choosing (when multiple cards resolve at the same time).

So, unless FFG tags it with a Limited header, I think if you can equip two and you're willing to pay the cost, you can deal two damage.

This is just my opinion.

How would one get two feedback array's on one ship?

How would one get two feedback array's on one ship?

The upcoming Shadow Caster expansion pack.

So I dug around a bit in the rules and FAQ, and took another close look at the upgrade itself.

Theory 1:

We may use two feedback arrays to deal damage twice. This is justified by the rules covering use of upgrades, the player being able to activate in the order they choose. This is all in the rule book.

Theory 2:

We can only use feedback array once because it happens instead of our attack, and we can only attack once. When we look at the card itself, it reads," During the combat phase, instead of performing any attacks you may..." Effectively, this mean that we forfeit all other attacks during the combat phase in order to deal this one damage.

My conclusion:

I don't believe the idea that we are spending our attack to use this upgrade is the best interpretation. I believe, after looking at it in the context of the rules and the card itself, that forfeiting the attacks is not the cost of the ability. Rather, we are choosing to deal damage in a different way. The cost of FA is receiving one Ion token and one damage. The opportunity to resolve the card is when we become the active ship during the combat phase. Each card normally resolves once per opportunity in the order of the players choosing (when multiple cards resolve at the same time).

So, unless FFG tags it with a Limited header, I think if you can equip two and you're willing to pay the cost, you can deal two damage.

This is just my opinion.

Whilst I understand your reasoning, an FAQ ruling regarding Feedback Array clearly indicates that if you are unable to attack you cannot use Feedback Array:

Feedback Array

It cannot be used while you are overlapping an asteroid or have a weapons disabled token.

And as Feedback Array clearly says as part of its text:

Feedback Array - Card text

During the Combat phase, instead of performing any attacks, you may receive 1 ion token and suffer 1 damage to choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1. That ship suffers 1 damage.

So the first FA replaces all of your attacks for the turn. The second FA cannot resolve as you no longer are able to use the ability instead of attacking, because you are no longer able to attack anything.

So I dug around a bit in the rules and FAQ, and took another close look at the upgrade itself.

Theory 1:

We may use two feedback arrays to deal damage twice. This is justified by the rules covering use of upgrades, the player being able to activate in the order they choose. This is all in the rule book.

Theory 2:

We can only use feedback array once because it happens instead of our attack, and we can only attack once. When we look at the card itself, it reads," During the combat phase, instead of performing any attacks you may..." Effectively, this mean that we forfeit all other attacks during the combat phase in order to deal this one damage.

My conclusion:

I don't believe the idea that we are spending our attack to use this upgrade is the best interpretation. I believe, after looking at it in the context of the rules and the card itself, that forfeiting the attacks is not the cost of the ability. Rather, we are choosing to deal damage in a different way. The cost of FA is receiving one Ion token and one damage. The opportunity to resolve the card is when we become the active ship during the combat phase. Each card normally resolves once per opportunity in the order of the players choosing (when multiple cards resolve at the same time).

So, unless FFG tags it with a Limited header, I think if you can equip two and you're willing to pay the cost, you can deal two damage.

This is just my opinion.

Whilst I understand your reasoning, an FAQ ruling regarding Feedback Array clearly indicates that if you are unable to attack you cannot use Feedback Array:

Feedback Array

It cannot be used while you are overlapping an asteroid or have a weapons disabled token.

And as Feedback Array clearly says as part of its text:

Feedback Array - Card text

During the Combat phase, instead of performing any attacks, you may receive 1 ion token and suffer 1 damage to choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1. That ship suffers 1 damage.

So the first FA replaces all of your attacks for the turn. The second FA cannot resolve as you no longer are able to use the ability instead of attacking, because you are no longer able to attack anything.

But FA isn't an attack. It just causes both you and a target ship to suffer damage.

So I dug around a bit in the rules and FAQ, and took another close look at the upgrade itself.

Theory 1:

We may use two feedback arrays to deal damage twice. This is justified by the rules covering use of upgrades, the player being able to activate in the order they choose. This is all in the rule book.

Theory 2:

We can only use feedback array once because it happens instead of our attack, and we can only attack once. When we look at the card itself, it reads," During the combat phase, instead of performing any attacks you may..." Effectively, this mean that we forfeit all other attacks during the combat phase in order to deal this one damage.

My conclusion:

I don't believe the idea that we are spending our attack to use this upgrade is the best interpretation. I believe, after looking at it in the context of the rules and the card itself, that forfeiting the attacks is not the cost of the ability. Rather, we are choosing to deal damage in a different way. The cost of FA is receiving one Ion token and one damage. The opportunity to resolve the card is when we become the active ship during the combat phase. Each card normally resolves once per opportunity in the order of the players choosing (when multiple cards resolve at the same time).

So, unless FFG tags it with a Limited header, I think if you can equip two and you're willing to pay the cost, you can deal two damage.

This is just my opinion.

Whilst I understand your reasoning, an FAQ ruling regarding Feedback Array clearly indicates that if you are unable to attack you cannot use Feedback Array:

Feedback Array

It cannot be used while you are overlapping an asteroid or have a weapons disabled token.

And as Feedback Array clearly says as part of its text:

Feedback Array - Card text

During the Combat phase, instead of performing any attacks, you may receive 1 ion token and suffer 1 damage to choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1. That ship suffers 1 damage.

So the first FA replaces all of your attacks for the turn. The second FA cannot resolve as you no longer are able to use the ability instead of attacking, because you are no longer able to attack anything.

But FA isn't an attack. It just causes both you and a target ship to suffer damage.

But you have to be able to attack (which you can't after the first FA resolves) AND you have to replace an attack to be able to use it (which you can't because you can no longer perform an attack), you cannot replace the same attack twice.

Feedback Array is triggered instead of making an Attack. If you use it then there is no other attack for a second copy to use.

This differs significantly from Recon Specialist in that RS modifies how many focus tokens the Focus action provides. If it's intent was to simply give you two Focus actions I'm 99% sure that Recon Specialist would have been its own action just like Lando crew is its own action. If Feedback Array was a "when you attack" option then you would get to use multiple copies of it but it is something that is used "instead of" where once you take it away for one it is no longer there for the other to use.

So I dug around a bit in the rules and FAQ, and took another close look at the upgrade itself.

Theory 1:

We may use two feedback arrays to deal damage twice. This is justified by the rules covering use of upgrades, the player being able to activate in the order they choose. This is all in the rule book.

Theory 2:

We can only use feedback array once because it happens instead of our attack, and we can only attack once. When we look at the card itself, it reads," During the combat phase, instead of performing any attacks you may..." Effectively, this mean that we forfeit all other attacks during the combat phase in order to deal this one damage.

My conclusion:

I don't believe the idea that we are spending our attack to use this upgrade is the best interpretation. I believe, after looking at it in the context of the rules and the card itself, that forfeiting the attacks is not the cost of the ability. Rather, we are choosing to deal damage in a different way. The cost of FA is receiving one Ion token and one damage. The opportunity to resolve the card is when we become the active ship during the combat phase. Each card normally resolves once per opportunity in the order of the players choosing (when multiple cards resolve at the same time).

So, unless FFG tags it with a Limited header, I think if you can equip two and you're willing to pay the cost, you can deal two damage.

This is just my opinion.

Whilst I understand your reasoning, an FAQ ruling regarding Feedback Array clearly indicates that if you are unable to attack you cannot use Feedback Array:

Feedback Array

It cannot be used while you are overlapping an asteroid or have a weapons disabled token.

And as Feedback Array clearly says as part of its text:

Feedback Array - Card text

During the Combat phase, instead of performing any attacks, you may receive 1 ion token and suffer 1 damage to choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1. That ship suffers 1 damage.

So the first FA replaces all of your attacks for the turn. The second FA cannot resolve as you no longer are able to use the ability instead of attacking, because you are no longer able to attack anything.

But FA isn't an attack. It just causes both you and a target ship to suffer damage.

But you have to be able to attack (which you can't after the first FA resolves) AND you have to replace an attack to be able to use it (which you can't because you can no longer perform an attack), you cannot replace the same attack twice.

The problem with your argument is you're liking the effects of FA to an attack which it isn't. The FAQ mentions that specifically. It's a card ability. You can perform it while touching another ship or with a blinded pilot card. Something you can't do with an attack.

I don't think there's another card that even remotely comes close to Feedback Array. It does damage but isn't a secondary weapon but it's affected by weapons failure. It doesn't require an action like a mine token drop nor does it carry the Attack (Target Lock) or Attack (Focus) of cannons or turrets. Unlike bombs it affects only a single ship and doesn't have a blast radius.

This is a pretty unique upgrade but I think it falls within the guidelines that FFG has established for multiple copies of the same card being able to stack. The problem is the Lancer Class ship is the first ship to allow two illicit upgrades to be taken. It'll take FFG to settle this disagreement.

So I dug around a bit in the rules and FAQ, and took another close look at the upgrade itself.

Theory 1:

We may use two feedback arrays to deal damage twice. This is justified by the rules covering use of upgrades, the player being able to activate in the order they choose. This is all in the rule book.

Theory 2:

We can only use feedback array once because it happens instead of our attack, and we can only attack once. When we look at the card itself, it reads," During the combat phase, instead of performing any attacks you may..." Effectively, this mean that we forfeit all other attacks during the combat phase in order to deal this one damage.

My conclusion:

I don't believe the idea that we are spending our attack to use this upgrade is the best interpretation. I believe, after looking at it in the context of the rules and the card itself, that forfeiting the attacks is not the cost of the ability. Rather, we are choosing to deal damage in a different way. The cost of FA is receiving one Ion token and one damage. The opportunity to resolve the card is when we become the active ship during the combat phase. Each card normally resolves once per opportunity in the order of the players choosing (when multiple cards resolve at the same time).

So, unless FFG tags it with a Limited header, I think if you can equip two and you're willing to pay the cost, you can deal two damage.

This is just my opinion.

Whilst I understand your reasoning, an FAQ ruling regarding Feedback Array clearly indicates that if you are unable to attack you cannot use Feedback Array:

Feedback Array

It cannot be used while you are overlapping an asteroid or have a weapons disabled token.

And as Feedback Array clearly says as part of its text:

Feedback Array - Card text

During the Combat phase, instead of performing any attacks, you may receive 1 ion token and suffer 1 damage to choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1. That ship suffers 1 damage.

So the first FA replaces all of your attacks for the turn. The second FA cannot resolve as you no longer are able to use the ability instead of attacking, because you are no longer able to attack anything.

But FA isn't an attack. It just causes both you and a target ship to suffer damage.

But you have to be able to attack (which you can't after the first FA resolves) AND you have to replace an attack to be able to use it (which you can't because you can no longer perform an attack), you cannot replace the same attack twice.

The problem with your argument is you're liking the effects of FA to an attack which it isn't. The FAQ mentions that specifically. It's a card ability. You can perform it while touching another ship or with a blinded pilot card. Something you can't do with an attack.

I don't think there's another card that even remotely comes close to Feedback Array. It does damage but isn't a secondary weapon but it's affected by weapons failure. It doesn't require an action like a mine token drop nor does it carry the Attack (Target Lock) or Attack (Focus) of cannons or turrets. Unlike bombs it affects only a single ship and doesn't have a blast radius.

This is a pretty unique upgrade but I think it falls within the guidelines that FFG has established for multiple copies of the same card being able to stack. The problem is the Lancer Class ship is the first ship to allow two illicit upgrades to be taken. It'll take FFG to settle this disagreement.

Feedback Array is not an Attack, Correct. Having said that, to resolve Feedback Array you must forfeit all of your attacks this turn. This is an additional cost of Feedback Array, you cannot pay this cost twice.

You cannot forfeit the same thing more than once.

As for these rules in the FAQ:

You can perform it while touching another ship or with a blinded pilot card.

Of course you can use it then because 1) you have the ability to attack other ships you are not touching 2) the old damage deck Blinded Pilot card you do actually attack but roll 0 dice, both instances where you are able to attack.

Feel free to Email FFG, I will await the response happily.

Edit:

To put this into context were FA to read:

when you activate during combat you may take 1 damage & 1 Ion to deal 1 damage to an enemy ship at range 1. if you do you may not attack this turn.

See this way you activate and do something and the cost prevents you from doing something in the future, perfectly fine to have 2 of them and use both of them. But as it is currently worded you cannot resolve the cost for the second FA so you can't use it.

My money's on an errata in the next FAQ making it "Limited".

My money's on an errata in the next FAQ making it "Limited".

I tend to agree with you. But the rules as currently written, don't seem to prevent it from being stacked. Mace's argument that forfeiting an attack is the "cost" of using Fa and you can't pay that cost twice seems a stretch.

To throw my 2 cents in, I agree with the "you can only use one" camp, and the argument that I feel is most correct here is that you have to have an attack to give up in order to be able to use it.

You didn't used to, though, maybe that's where some arguments are coming from? If you were around when it first dropped, you'd remember that you could use it while sitting on a rock. Latest FAQ has changed that; ships on asteroids cannot use Feedback Array.

Weapons Disabled tokens also prevent you from using it.

(Strangely, Blinded Pilot does not prevent it, which I think is best rationalized as an oversight because it's totally inconsistent with the other examples, unless you exclusively use the old damage deck card text of Blinded Pilot)

So if you do not have an attack to give up, you cannot use it. You should interpret "instead of performing any attacks..." as "give up all of your attacks, minimum 1, to...".

As you forfeit all attacks with the first Feedback Array, the second Feedback Array's clause, "instead of performing any attacks..." cannot be satisfied, because you cannot perform any attacks after using the first Feedback Array.

My money's on an errata in the next FAQ making it "Limited".

I tend to agree with you. But the rules as currently written, don't seem to prevent it from being stacked. Mace's argument that forfeiting an attack is the "cost" of using Fa and you can't pay that cost twice seems a stretch.

How is that a stretch?

You give up your attacks to use FA.

You then have no attacks to give up to use a second FA.

Cut and dry to me.