How is that a stretch?I tend to agree with you. But the rules as currently written, don't seem to prevent it from being stacked. Mace's argument that forfeiting an attack is the "cost" of using Fa and you can't pay that cost twice seems a stretch.My money's on an errata in the next FAQ making it "Limited".
You give up your attacks to use FA.
You then have no attacks to give up to use a second FA.
Cut and dry to me.
Edit for spelling.
Edited by StonefaceNow I'm trying to think of examples where else this might occur, where event A would prevent event B from occurring because of a change in the state of the game, any other examples of this exist? Simultaneous attack and ps order of triggered abilities would not seem to apply either
Now I'm trying to think of examples where else this might occur, where event A would prevent event B from occurring because of a change in the state of the game, any other examples of this exist? Simultaneous attack and ps order of triggered abilities would not seem to apply either
Here ya go:
Opportunist card
When attacking, if the defender does not have any focus or evade tokens, you may receive 1 stress token to roll 1 additional attack die. You cannot use this ability if you have any stress tokens.
Captain Yorr FAQ entry
If, through his pilot ability, Captain Yorr intercepts a stress token that is part of the cost of triggering an ability on another ship (such as Soontir Fel or Opportunist), that ability’s effect does not resolve.
I don't see the correlation between Yorr, Opportunist and Feedback Array. One's a device, one's an EPT and the third is a pilot ability.
I don't see the correlation between Yorr, Opportunist and Feedback Array. One's a device, one's an EPT and the third is a pilot ability.
cjnj193 said he was looking for examples "where event A would prevent event B from occurring".
Yorr + Opportunist is such an example. And the reason Yorr stops Opportunist is that receiving the stress token is a cost for Opportunist - if you don't pay the cost (receive stress), you don't get the bonus (+1 die). The same interaction works with Fel - if Yorr steal the stress token, Fel doesn't get the focus token.
It's similar to Feedback Array, where one might consider "instead of performing any attacks" as a cost that must be to use Feedback Array, therefore preventing the use of multiple Feedback Arrays.
The fact that one's a device, one's an EPT and the other a pilot makes no difference at all here...
Aha! Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I was looking at each one separately and scratching my head.
There is no "cost" associated with using FA. Have you read the section under "Card Abilities"? FA meets the restrictions imposed on it by that section. There's no reason that it won't stack other than the presumption by some that not attacking is a "cost" that must somehow must be paid before FA can be utilised. Not being able to use an attack in the same turn that FA is used is a restriction on its use, not a cost to be paid. It's there to prevent the equivalent of a double tap during a ship's combat phase. Currently there are only two ships that I can think of that can use a double tap in a single combat phase and that's the Defender and Y-Wing both with certain upgrades. I'm excluding crew, cluster missiles and epts from that list.
(Namely, while holding a Weapons Disabled token and while overlapping an asteroid)
But we can avoid the "cost" word if that's bothersome.
If you can't (attempt to) perform at least one attack, it can't be used. (I put 'attempt to' in there because Feedback Array doesn't care about arc or range)
Right? That's the only way to explain the above restrictions, right?
And since using Feedback Array #1 means you can't perform any attacks for the remainder of the round, Feedback Array #2 goes to check its trigger and sees that, at this point, you can't perform any attacks.
So Feedback Array can't be used.
My prediction? No 'Limited' errata (although they may as well, except for Boba insurance there's no reason to take 2) but expanding/fixing the FAQ section on it.
I still maintain that "choosing not to attack" is not the trigger. The faq for FA explains that it is triggered when that ship is activated during the combat phase.
The cost to perform it is ion token and damage.
The restriction is that you can't perform any attacks before or after its use.
The cards resolve at the same time.
I don't think it should work this way, and I was in the "one use" boat before I started looking into it.
This upgrade was introduced before we could have two illicit cards on one ship. I'm sure it will be addressed.
Typing on my phone so I can't pull quotes.
Edited by ObiOneTooBut that is a good presumption to make, based on when you cannot use Feedback Array per its FAQ.(Namely, while holding a Weapons Disabled token and while overlapping an asteroid)But we can avoid the "cost" word if that's bothersome.If you can't (attempt to) perform at least one attack, it can't be used. (I put 'attempt to' in there because Feedback Array doesn't care about arc or range)Right? That's the only way to explain the above restrictions, right?And since using Feedback Array #1 means you can't perform any attacks for the remainder of the round, Feedback Array #2 goes to check its trigger and sees that, at this point, you can't perform any attacks.So Feedback Array can't be used.My prediction? No 'Limited' errata (although they may as well, except for Boba insurance there's no reason to take 2) but expanding/fixing the FAQ section on it.There is no "cost" associated with using FA. Have you read the section under "Card Abilities"? FA meets the restrictions imposed on it by that section. There's no reason that it won't stack other than the presumption by some that not attacking is a "cost" that must somehow must be paid before FA can be utilised. Not being able to use an attack in the same turn that FA is used is a restriction on its use, not a cost to be paid. It's there to prevent the equivalent of a double tap during a ship's combat phase. Currently there are only two ships that I can think of that can use a double tap in a single combat phase and that's the Defender and Y-Wing both with certain upgrades. I'm excluding crew, cluster missiles and epts from that list.
I should start by asking you to define "attempt" but I'll assume you mean that an enemy ship is within range and arc of our ship equipped with two feedback array cards.
Attempt really doesn't work either. Imagine you overlap an enemy's ship. You've moved back along the template and you're sitting nose to nose. Every other ship is out of range or arc. By the rules you can't attack each other. Can you "attempt an attack? You have no shot at any enemy. BUT you have feedback array. In fact two of them. Does FA require a trigger? If the trigger is an attempt at attacking then it fails and no feedback array. But no trigger is needed, you've met all the conditions on the card so you use FA. What prevents you from using it a second time? I see nothing in the rules to prevent a second card from being used.
As to why the card has the attack restrictions. On this I can only guess it was worded the way it was to prevent FA from being used either before or after an ATTACK effectively giving the active ship a double tap. Why do I say this? Because the use of FA is neither an ATTACK nor an ACTION. If it's not an action it can't be used during the activation phase or outside of that time frame as a free action. (As a free action you could use it while sitting on a rock) (Preventing a double tap or used with Advanced Sensors to damage a ship before you move.)
We know it's not an attack because the FAQ says it isn't and the card carries no ATTACK header. How do you prevent a damage causing card, that's not an attack from being used in conjunction with an attack? And where during the combat phase is it used? Simple you restrict an attack either before or after the use of FA. That problem is solved.
What this boils down to is this: FA doesn't need a trigger to be used. There's no cost associated with it like the Blaster Turret. You either meet the restrictions on the card and in the FAQ and can use it or you can't. If you can, there's nothing currently in the rules preventing you from stacking two of them IF you can take two Illicit Upgrades.
I think there is a "cost" involved, but it's not the forfeiture of any attacks, it's the ion token and damage you must suffer in order to use it because the card says to do that before you choose an enemy ship.
Is there a trigger for it? Not really, but there are "conditions", those being you cannot make an attack before or after using it, you cannot use it while on a rock or you have a weapons disabled token, and it can only be used during the Combat phase. But there's not something that "triggers" it as such, like an action. It's a player choice, just like choosing a secondary weapon instead of a primary weapon.
Is it an attack? No, the FAQ states that it clearly is not. And the FAQ also states you cannot perform any attacks after using Feedback Array, but it's use is not an attack, so it seems that there's no real restriction on the use of a second Feedback Array.
I was fairly sure it should be a one-card only deal, but Stoneface has made some pretty solid arguments here, and I'm struggling to find any holes in his logic.
But that is a good presumption to make, based on when you cannot use Feedback Array per its FAQ.(Namely, while holding a Weapons Disabled token and while overlapping an asteroid)But we can avoid the "cost" word if that's bothersome.If you can't (attempt to) perform at least one attack, it can't be used. (I put 'attempt to' in there because Feedback Array doesn't care about arc or range)Right? That's the only way to explain the above restrictions, right?And since using Feedback Array #1 means you can't perform any attacks for the remainder of the round, Feedback Array #2 goes to check its trigger and sees that, at this point, you can't perform any attacks.So Feedback Array can't be used.My prediction? No 'Limited' errata (although they may as well, except for Boba insurance there's no reason to take 2) but expanding/fixing the FAQ section on it.There is no "cost" associated with using FA. Have you read the section under "Card Abilities"? FA meets the restrictions imposed on it by that section. There's no reason that it won't stack other than the presumption by some that not attacking is a "cost" that must somehow must be paid before FA can be utilised. Not being able to use an attack in the same turn that FA is used is a restriction on its use, not a cost to be paid. It's there to prevent the equivalent of a double tap during a ship's combat phase. Currently there are only two ships that I can think of that can use a double tap in a single combat phase and that's the Defender and Y-Wing both with certain upgrades. I'm excluding crew, cluster missiles and epts from that list.
I should start by asking you to define "attempt" but I'll assume you mean that an enemy ship is within range and arc of our ship equipped with two feedback array cards.
Attempt really doesn't work either. Imagine you overlap an enemy's ship. You've moved back along the template and you're sitting nose to nose. Every other ship is out of range or arc. By the rules you can't attack each other. Can you "attempt an attack? You have no shot at any enemy. BUT you have feedback array. In fact two of them. Does FA require a trigger? If the trigger is an attempt at attacking then it fails and no feedback array. But no trigger is needed, you've met all the conditions on the card so you use FA. What prevents you from using it a second time? I see nothing in the rules to prevent a second card from being used.
As to why the card has the attack restrictions. On this I can only guess it was worded the way it was to prevent FA from being used either before or after an ATTACK effectively giving the active ship a double tap. Why do I say this? Because the use of FA is neither an ATTACK nor an ACTION. If it's not an action it can't be used during the activation phase or outside of that time frame as a free action. (As a free action you could use it while sitting on a rock) (Preventing a double tap or used with Advanced Sensors to damage a ship before you move.)
We know it's not an attack because the FAQ says it isn't and the card carries no ATTACK header. How do you prevent a damage causing card, that's not an attack from being used in conjunction with an attack? And where during the combat phase is it used? Simple you restrict an attack either before or after the use of FA. That problem is solved.
What this boils down to is this: FA doesn't need a trigger to be used. There's no cost associated with it like the Blaster Turret. You either meet the restrictions on the card and in the FAQ and can use it or you can't. If you can, there's nothing currently in the rules preventing you from stacking two of them IF you can take two Illicit Upgrades.
There is in fact a trigger to use FA: when you become the active ship.
The real question is this:
-Does becoming unable to perform any attacks make you become inactive during the Combat Phase?
Or, do the effects I've mentioned simply make you skip your activation during the Combat Phase?
It's actually not clear from the rules which is correct, although I lean towards the former.
Said in the context of double FA, when you lose the ability to perform any additional attacks, wouldn't that mean that you aren't the active ship any longer?
At which point, the window for using the second FA is gone.
Every time I've said "attempt", my meaning has been "when you become the active ship." Touching another ship does not make you skip your Combat Phase activation. Sorry for being lax with the terminology.
But that is a good presumption to make, based on when you cannot use Feedback Array per its FAQ.(Namely, while holding a Weapons Disabled token and while overlapping an asteroid)But we can avoid the "cost" word if that's bothersome.If you can't (attempt to) perform at least one attack, it can't be used. (I put 'attempt to' in there because Feedback Array doesn't care about arc or range)Right? That's the only way to explain the above restrictions, right?And since using Feedback Array #1 means you can't perform any attacks for the remainder of the round, Feedback Array #2 goes to check its trigger and sees that, at this point, you can't perform any attacks.So Feedback Array can't be used.My prediction? No 'Limited' errata (although they may as well, except for Boba insurance there's no reason to take 2) but expanding/fixing the FAQ section on it.There is no "cost" associated with using FA. Have you read the section under "Card Abilities"? FA meets the restrictions imposed on it by that section. There's no reason that it won't stack other than the presumption by some that not attacking is a "cost" that must somehow must be paid before FA can be utilised. Not being able to use an attack in the same turn that FA is used is a restriction on its use, not a cost to be paid. It's there to prevent the equivalent of a double tap during a ship's combat phase. Currently there are only two ships that I can think of that can use a double tap in a single combat phase and that's the Defender and Y-Wing both with certain upgrades. I'm excluding crew, cluster missiles and epts from that list.
I should start by asking you to define "attempt" but I'll assume you mean that an enemy ship is within range and arc of our ship equipped with two feedback array cards.
Attempt really doesn't work either. Imagine you overlap an enemy's ship. You've moved back along the template and you're sitting nose to nose. Every other ship is out of range or arc. By the rules you can't attack each other. Can you "attempt an attack? You have no shot at any enemy. BUT you have feedback array. In fact two of them. Does FA require a trigger? If the trigger is an attempt at attacking then it fails and no feedback array. But no trigger is needed, you've met all the conditions on the card so you use FA. What prevents you from using it a second time? I see nothing in the rules to prevent a second card from being used.
As to why the card has the attack restrictions. On this I can only guess it was worded the way it was to prevent FA from being used either before or after an ATTACK effectively giving the active ship a double tap. Why do I say this? Because the use of FA is neither an ATTACK nor an ACTION. If it's not an action it can't be used during the activation phase or outside of that time frame as a free action. (As a free action you could use it while sitting on a rock) (Preventing a double tap or used with Advanced Sensors to damage a ship before you move.)
We know it's not an attack because the FAQ says it isn't and the card carries no ATTACK header. How do you prevent a damage causing card, that's not an attack from being used in conjunction with an attack? And where during the combat phase is it used? Simple you restrict an attack either before or after the use of FA. That problem is solved.
What this boils down to is this: FA doesn't need a trigger to be used. There's no cost associated with it like the Blaster Turret. You either meet the restrictions on the card and in the FAQ and can use it or you can't. If you can, there's nothing currently in the rules preventing you from stacking two of them IF you can take two Illicit Upgrades.
There is in fact a trigger to use FA: when you become the active ship.
The real question is this:
-Does becoming unable to perform any attacks make you become inactive during the Combat Phase?
Or, do the effects I've mentioned simply make you skip your activation during the Combat Phase?
It's actually not clear from the rules which is correct, although I lean towards the former.
Said in the context of double FA, when you lose the ability to perform any additional attacks, wouldn't that mean that you aren't the active ship any longer?
At which point, the window for using the second FA is gone.
"Does becoming unable to perform an attacks make you become inactive during the Combat phase?"
No it doesn't, it just limits your options. if you were down to the last two ships left and you were touching your opponent's ship, making you unable to attack him, is that going to make you inactive? No, because if you have Feedback Array, you can still use that. So you cannot considered inactive at all. You still have something you can resolve.
Feedback Array says you can't perform any attacks before or after, but it's use doesn't instantly make you inactive. If you were also equipped with Electronic Baffle, you could trigger that to get rid of the ion token. And if you were feeling especially suicidal and had Dead Man's Switch, you could trigger that if the Electronic Baffle destroyed your ship.
So even if you've used your Feedback Array(s), you're still the active ship until you have nothing left to resolve in the Combat phase, and there's more than just attacks that can be resolved during the Combat phase.
I should start by asking you to define "attempt" but I'll assume you mean that an enemy ship is within range and arc of our ship equipped with two feedback array cards.Attempt really doesn't work either. Imagine you overlap an enemy's ship. You've moved back along the template and you're sitting nose to nose. Every other ship is out of range or arc. By the rules you can't attack each other. Can you "attempt an attack? You have no shot at any enemy. BUT you have feedback array. In fact two of them. Does FA require a trigger? If the trigger is an attempt at attacking then it fails and no feedback array. But no trigger is needed, you've met all the conditions on the card so you use FA. What prevents you from using it a second time? I see nothing in the rules to prevent a second card from being used.As to why the card has the attack restrictions. On this I can only guess it was worded the way it was to prevent FA from being used either before or after an ATTACK effectively giving the active ship a double tap. Why do I say this? Because the use of FA is neither an ATTACK nor an ACTION. If it's not an action it can't be used during the activation phase or outside of that time frame as a free action. (As a free action you could use it while sitting on a rock) (Preventing a double tap or used with Advanced Sensors to damage a ship before you move.)We know it's not an attack because the FAQ says it isn't and the card carries no ATTACK header. How do you prevent a damage causing card, that's not an attack from being used in conjunction with an attack? And where during the combat phase is it used? Simple you restrict an attack either before or after the use of FA. That problem is solved.What this boils down to is this: FA doesn't need a trigger to be used. There's no cost associated with it like the Blaster Turret. You either meet the restrictions on the card and in the FAQ and can use it or you can't. If you can, there's nothing currently in the rules preventing you from stacking two of them IF you can take two Illicit Upgrades.But that is a good presumption to make, based on when you cannot use Feedback Array per its FAQ.(Namely, while holding a Weapons Disabled token and while overlapping an asteroid)But we can avoid the "cost" word if that's bothersome.If you can't (attempt to) perform at least one attack, it can't be used. (I put 'attempt to' in there because Feedback Array doesn't care about arc or range)Right? That's the only way to explain the above restrictions, right?And since using Feedback Array #1 means you can't perform any attacks for the remainder of the round, Feedback Array #2 goes to check its trigger and sees that, at this point, you can't perform any attacks.So Feedback Array can't be used.My prediction? No 'Limited' errata (although they may as well, except for Boba insurance there's no reason to take 2) but expanding/fixing the FAQ section on it.There is no "cost" associated with using FA. Have you read the section under "Card Abilities"? FA meets the restrictions imposed on it by that section. There's no reason that it won't stack other than the presumption by some that not attacking is a "cost" that must somehow must be paid before FA can be utilised. Not being able to use an attack in the same turn that FA is used is a restriction on its use, not a cost to be paid. It's there to prevent the equivalent of a double tap during a ship's combat phase. Currently there are only two ships that I can think of that can use a double tap in a single combat phase and that's the Defender and Y-Wing both with certain upgrades. I'm excluding crew, cluster missiles and epts from that list.
Every time I've said "attempt", my meaning has been "when you become the active ship." Touching another ship does not make you skip your Combat Phase activation. Sorry for being lax with the terminology.There is in fact a trigger to use FA: when you become the active ship.The real question is this:-Does becoming unable to perform any attacks make you become inactive during the Combat Phase?Or, do the effects I've mentioned simply make you skip your activation during the Combat Phase?It's actually not clear from the rules which is correct, although I lean towards the former.Said in the context of double FA, when you lose the ability to perform any additional attacks, wouldn't that mean that you aren't the active ship any longer?At which point, the window for using the second FA is gone.
One of the problems with this discussion is the use of the word "attack". FA isn't an attack but since it happens during the combat phase and does cause damage it's kind of hard not to use it. But in the context of the game rules FA is not an attack. The use of the word "trigger" is also troubling to me because I don't think of my turn during combat as a "trigger". To me trigger means when a certain condition is met it causes an end result that you have no control over. One example that comes to mind is Deadman Switch. The condition, being destroyed, is the trigger for every ship at range 1 to suffer 1 damage. I have no control over who gets damage or even to prevent Deadman Switch from activating. FA is different. It uses the word "may".
Bullet #6 under card abilities states, "If a ship is equipped with more than one copy of the same Upgrade card that does not require an action to trigger (that word again) the card's ability, it can trigger each copy of that card at the specified time". FA doesn't need an action to trigger the cards ability because there's no ACTION header. It goes on to state that the ship can trigger each copy at the specified time. In the case of FA this would be when I become the active ship during the combat phase. Bullet #6 also uses the word "can" and not must or shall giving me the option to use the card.
The info on the FA card gives the restrictions on its use, no attacks, the timing window, combat phase, and precisely what portion of the combat phase: when I'm the active ship. Now I have an option, as the active ship, to perform an attack OR use Feedback Array but one last condition must be met. A ship at range one. I may have other targets within range and arc but there's a ship behind me in range that I want to damage. At this point I become the trigger. I choose to use FA, skipping my attack. Once I trigger FA the following happens. I suffer 1 damage and 1 ion token for each FA card I have, the target of the FA suffers 2 damage. Why do both cards activate at the same time? Under Bullet #6 it says, "...it can trigger each copy of that card at the specified timing". It doesn't require the cards to be triggered sequentially, they trigger simultaneously. One thing I need to add, for both cards to be able to trigger, my ship needs to have at least two health remaining.
As to your question about being unable to attack and being "inactive" during combat look at blinded pilot and some of the FAQ entries under combat. During your portion of the combat phase you are always the active ship even if you are blinded or without a target. The wording on the FA card is there to prevent a "double tap". It doesn't mean that you need a viable target that you won't attack so you can utilise FA.
"Does becoming unable to perform an attacks make you become inactive during the Combat phase?"Every time I've said "attempt", my meaning has been "when you become the active ship." Touching another ship does not make you skip your Combat Phase activation. Sorry for being lax with the terminology.But that is a good presumption to make, based on when you cannot use Feedback Array per its FAQ.(Namely, while holding a Weapons Disabled token and while overlapping an asteroid)But we can avoid the "cost" word if that's bothersome.If you can't (attempt to) perform at least one attack, it can't be used. (I put 'attempt to' in there because Feedback Array doesn't care about arc or range)Right? That's the only way to explain the above restrictions, right?And since using Feedback Array #1 means you can't perform any attacks for the remainder of the round, Feedback Array #2 goes to check its trigger and sees that, at this point, you can't perform any attacks.So Feedback Array can't be used.My prediction? No 'Limited' errata (although they may as well, except for Boba insurance there's no reason to take 2) but expanding/fixing the FAQ section on it.There is no "cost" associated with using FA. Have you read the section under "Card Abilities"? FA meets the restrictions imposed on it by that section. There's no reason that it won't stack other than the presumption by some that not attacking is a "cost" that must somehow must be paid before FA can be utilised. Not being able to use an attack in the same turn that FA is used is a restriction on its use, not a cost to be paid. It's there to prevent the equivalent of a double tap during a ship's combat phase. Currently there are only two ships that I can think of that can use a double tap in a single combat phase and that's the Defender and Y-Wing both with certain upgrades. I'm excluding crew, cluster missiles and epts from that list.
I should start by asking you to define "attempt" but I'll assume you mean that an enemy ship is within range and arc of our ship equipped with two feedback array cards.
Attempt really doesn't work either. Imagine you overlap an enemy's ship. You've moved back along the template and you're sitting nose to nose. Every other ship is out of range or arc. By the rules you can't attack each other. Can you "attempt an attack? You have no shot at any enemy. BUT you have feedback array. In fact two of them. Does FA require a trigger? If the trigger is an attempt at attacking then it fails and no feedback array. But no trigger is needed, you've met all the conditions on the card so you use FA. What prevents you from using it a second time? I see nothing in the rules to prevent a second card from being used.
As to why the card has the attack restrictions. On this I can only guess it was worded the way it was to prevent FA from being used either before or after an ATTACK effectively giving the active ship a double tap. Why do I say this? Because the use of FA is neither an ATTACK nor an ACTION. If it's not an action it can't be used during the activation phase or outside of that time frame as a free action. (As a free action you could use it while sitting on a rock) (Preventing a double tap or used with Advanced Sensors to damage a ship before you move.)
We know it's not an attack because the FAQ says it isn't and the card carries no ATTACK header. How do you prevent a damage causing card, that's not an attack from being used in conjunction with an attack? And where during the combat phase is it used? Simple you restrict an attack either before or after the use of FA. That problem is solved.
What this boils down to is this: FA doesn't need a trigger to be used. There's no cost associated with it like the Blaster Turret. You either meet the restrictions on the card and in the FAQ and can use it or you can't. If you can, there's nothing currently in the rules preventing you from stacking two of them IF you can take two Illicit Upgrades.
There is in fact a trigger to use FA: when you become the active ship.
The real question is this:
-Does becoming unable to perform any attacks make you become inactive during the Combat Phase?
Or, do the effects I've mentioned simply make you skip your activation during the Combat Phase?
It's actually not clear from the rules which is correct, although I lean towards the former.
Said in the context of double FA, when you lose the ability to perform any additional attacks, wouldn't that mean that you aren't the active ship any longer?
At which point, the window for using the second FA is gone.
No it doesn't, it just limits your options. if you were down to the last two ships left and you were touching your opponent's ship, making you unable to attack him, is that going to make you inactive? No, because if you have Feedback Array, you can still use that. So you cannot considered inactive at all. You still have something you can resolve.
Feedback Array says you can't perform any attacks before or after, but it's use doesn't instantly make you inactive. If you were also equipped with Electronic Baffle, you could trigger that to get rid of the ion token. And if you were feeling especially suicidal and had Dead Man's Switch, you could trigger that if the Electronic Baffle destroyed your ship.
So even if you've used your Feedback Array(s), you're still the active ship until you have nothing left to resolve in the Combat phase, and there's more than just attacks that can be resolved during the Combat phase.
You said it better and with less words than I did. Thank you!
One of the problems with this discussion is the use of the word "attack". FA isn't an attack but since it happens during the combat phase and does cause damage it's kind of hard not to use it. But in the context of the game rules FA is not an attack. The use of the word "trigger" is also troubling to me because I don't think of my turn during combat as a "trigger". To me trigger means when a certain condition is met it causes an end result that you have no control over. One example that comes to mind is Deadman Switch. The condition, being destroyed, is the trigger for every ship at range 1 to suffer 1 damage. I have no control over who gets damage or even to prevent Deadman Switch from activating. FA is different. It uses the word "may".
The use of the word "may" doesn't make something not a trigger.
Gunner, PTL and R3-A2 all use the word "may", but all have triggers. And every time their trigger happens, they resolve, but the player can decide not to go through the part after "may".
I suffer 1 damage and 1 ion token for each FA card I have, the target of the FA suffers 2 damage. Why do both cards activate at the same time? Under Bullet #6 it says, "...it can trigger each copy of that card at the specified timing". It doesn't require the cards to be triggered sequentially, they trigger simultaneously. One thing I need to add, for both cards to be able to trigger, my ship needs to have at least two health remaining.
You are correct that cards with the same trigger, trigger simultaneously. However, the player chooses the order in which to resolve them sequentially.
See Rules Reference, p.8:
"If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative chooses which of his abilities to resolve and resolves them in the order of his choosing. Then the opposing player does the same for his own abilities."
In the context of Feedback Array, this means that the following is incorrect:
This would be the correct resolution sequence:
(not that it makes much difference, since they're the same card...)
This can make a difference in certain scenarios. Example: if the enemy ship has a Major Hull Breach crit (all damage cards are face up), you'll get to decide not to resolve the second Feedback array if the first one deals a Direct Hit, or some other crit that guarantees the enemy will die next round.
I have to disagree with some of the things you said but first I need to define "trigger". This comes from the Oxford Dictionary of English. One of the definitions for trigger reads, "an event that is the cause of a particular action, process or situation". (Emphasis mine) I've bolded your text to make the responses a little easier to follow.
You wrote:
The use of the word "may" doesn't make something not a trigger.
Gunner, PTL and R3-A2 all use the word "may", but all have triggers. And every time their trigger happens, they resolve, but the player can decide not to go through the part after "may".
You're correct that may doesn't make something not a trigger but the next sentence is inaccurate. While each of the three upgrades listed all have triggers, they are the same one. The active ship can choose (may) to trigger their effects. Each card has a different set of conditions that must be met before they can be used but the effects of the cards are not resolved until after they are triggered by the active ship. That's one of the reasons I compared Feedback Array to Deadman Switch. FA is a choice, I trigger that effect, whereas DS is triggered by the ship's destruction.
You are correct that cards with the same trigger, trigger simultaneously. However, the player chooses the order in which to resolve them sequentially.
See Rules Reference, p.8:
"If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative chooses which of his abilities to resolve and resolves them in the order of his choosing. Then the opposing player does the same for his own abilities."
Here you're confusing multiple abilities with multiple copies of the same ability. The section you quoted is Bullet #5 under Card Abilities and the one I quoted is Bullet #6.
Bullet #6 it says, "...it can trigger each copy of that card at the specified timing". There isn't the sequence as you listed below.
This would be the correct resolution sequence:
Since the RRG uses the word can, I take it to mean that I have the option to withhold the use of one or more copies of the ability during their timing window.This being handy in the case of single use upgrades like Hot-Shot Blaster. No sense in dropping two of them when one will do.
I've re-read my opening statement that you quoted and I can see I didn't express myself very clearly regarding triggers. In addressing Sparklelord's comments on the trigger to use FA is being the active ship I see I left out a sentence or two that may have helped clarify my thoughts.
This is a tough one that could go either way. I will favor the 'yes' brigade however.
-If you can't trigger both, than double dead man switch is also redundant.
-Ships with multiple attacks can't take an illicit for a reason (warthog y's).
SIMULTANEOUSLY, I thought of the Rebels B-wing destroyer cannon thing being triggered by repeated instances of opportunist and electronic baffle. This is stopped by 'once per opportunity,' but only 1 copy of the card is being used.....
...I would say that if you REALLY want to deal your shadowcaster 2 damage and reveal where you are going next turn in exchange for 2 unavoidable damage to a target, or even 1 to 2 different targets to go for it.
This is a tough one that could go either way. I will favor the 'yes' brigade however.
-If you can't trigger both, than double dead man switch is also redundant.
-Ships with multiple attacks can't take an illicit for a reason (warthog y's).
SIMULTANEOUSLY, I thought of the Rebels B-wing destroyer cannon thing being triggered by repeated instances of opportunist and electronic baffle. This is stopped by 'once per opportunity,' but only 1 copy of the card is being used.....
...I would say that if you REALLY want to deal your shadowcaster 2 damage and reveal where you are going next turn in exchange for 2 unavoidable damage to a target, or even 1 to 2 different targets to go for it.
It's a little weird how people view stacking upgrades. Some say "NO!" Even though it folloes the rules as written. Some are on the fence because, as written, it seems to be allowed but doesn't make sense as you pointed out.
Regarding the Y-wing not having an Illicit Upgrade slot, I'm not sure if it's because it can shoot twice, an oversight by the design team or for "flavor".
I have to disagree with some of the things you said but first I need to define "trigger". This comes from the Oxford Dictionary of English. One of the definitions for trigger reads, "an event that is the cause of a particular action, process or situation". (Emphasis mine) I've bolded your text to make the responses a little easier to follow.
You wrote:
The use of the word "may" doesn't make something not a trigger.
Gunner, PTL and R3-A2 all use the word "may", but all have triggers. And every time their trigger happens, they resolve, but the player can decide not to go through the part after "may".
You're correct that may doesn't make something not a trigger but the next sentence is inaccurate. While each of the three upgrades listed all have triggers, they are the same one. The active ship can choose (may) to trigger their effects. Each card has a different set of conditions that must be met before they can be used but the effects of the cards are not resolved until after they are triggered by the active ship. That's one of the reasons I compared Feedback Array to Deadman Switch. FA is a choice, I trigger that effect, whereas DS is triggered by the ship's destruction.
I disagree.
Push the Limit reads: "Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token."
This is equivalent to it reading: "Once per round, after you perform an action, resolve the following: you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. If you do, receive 1 stress token.
Saying that the trigger for a card is "may" doesn't make sense, to me at least...
You are correct that cards with the same trigger, trigger simultaneously. However, the player chooses the order in which to resolve them sequentially.
See Rules Reference, p.8:
"If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative chooses which of his abilities to resolve and resolves them in the order of his choosing. Then the opposing player does the same for his own abilities."
Here you're confusing multiple abilities with multiple copies of the same ability. The section you quoted is Bullet #5 under Card Abilities and the one I quoted is Bullet #6.
Bullet #6 it says, "...it can trigger each copy of that card at the specified timing". There isn't the sequence as you listed below.
Again, I disagree.
Bullet #6 does not mean both copies of the card resolve in parallel. There is literally never anything in the game that happens in parallel. It is always sequential.
When you apply bullet #6 and "trigger each copy of that card at the specified timing", you end up in a situation where "multiple abilities resolve at the same time", and bullet #5 tells you to "resolves them in the order of [your] choosing."
Bullet #6 is actually there to get around bullet #1.
Bullet #1 reads: "A card ability cannot be resolved more than once during the timing specified on the card."
This could very well be interpreted to mean that, even if you have 2 Recon Specialists, you should only get 1 extra focus token. Good thing they put in bullet #6 to clarify that!
In a theoretical scenario where you had 4 cards (card A, card B, and 2 copies of card C), that all have the same "After you perform an action" trigger:
I have to disagree with some of the things you said but first I need to define "trigger". This comes from the Oxford Dictionary of English. One of the definitions for trigger reads, "an event that is the cause of a particular action, process or situation". (Emphasis mine) I've bolded your text to make the responses a little easier to follow.
You wrote:
The use of the word "may" doesn't make something not a trigger.
Gunner, PTL and R3-A2 all use the word "may", but all have triggers. And every time their trigger happens, they resolve, but the player can decide not to go through the part after "may".
You're correct that may doesn't make something not a trigger but the next sentence is inaccurate. While each of the three upgrades listed all have triggers, they are the same one. The active ship can choose (may) to trigger their effects. Each card has a different set of conditions that must be met before they can be used but the effects of the cards are not resolved until after they are triggered by the active ship. That's one of the reasons I compared Feedback Array to Deadman Switch. FA is a choice, I trigger that effect, whereas DS is triggered by the ship's destruction.
I disagree.
Push the Limit reads: "Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token."
This is equivalent to it reading: "Once per round, after you perform an action, resolve the following: you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. If you do, receive 1 stress token.
Saying that the trigger for a card is "may" doesn't make sense, to me at least...
- The trigger is "after you perform an action".
- What you resolve when PTL trigger's "you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. If you do, receive 1 stress token."
You are correct that cards with the same trigger, trigger simultaneously. However, the player chooses the order in which to resolve them sequentially.
See Rules Reference, p.8:"If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative chooses which of his abilities to resolve and resolves them in the order of his choosing. Then the opposing player does the same for his own abilities."
Here you're confusing multiple abilities with multiple copies of the same ability. The section you quoted is Bullet #5 under Card Abilities and the one I quoted is Bullet #6. Bullet #6 it says, "...it can trigger each copy of that card at the specified timing". There isn't the sequence as you listed below.
Again, I disagree.
Bullet #6 does not mean both copies of the card resolve in parallel. There is literally never anything in the game that happens in parallel. It is always sequential.
When you apply bullet #6 and "trigger each copy of that card at the specified timing", you end up in a situation where "multiple abilities resolve at the same time", and bullet #5 tells you to "resolves them in the order of [your] choosing."
Bullet #6 is actually there to get around bullet #1.
Bullet #1 reads: "A card ability cannot be resolved more than once during the timing specified on the card."
This could very well be interpreted to mean that, even if you have 2 Recon Specialists, you should only get 1 extra focus token. Good thing they put in bullet #6 to clarify that!
In a theoretical scenario where you had 4 cards (card A, card B, and 2 copies of card C), that all have the same "After you perform an action" trigger:
- Bullet #6 says that you can trigger both copies of card C
- You now have 4 abilities that resolve at the same time
- Bullet #5 says that you resolve them in the order of your choosing:
- A, B, C, C
- C, B, C, A
- A, C, C, B
- etc... are all valid orders of resolution
Going back to the "trigger". If you reread the entire section of Card Abilities, the word "trigger" is used exactly twice. Under Bullet #6 it specifically states "it ( meaning the ship) can trigger each copy of that card at the specified timing". It's the ship that triggers the ability, not the conditions that come before it. The accepted definition of trigger, "an event that is the cause of a particular action, event or situation". Taking an action does not cause PTL to process. It gives you the option (may) to trigger PTL. It's even stated that unless the card has "may" or the ATTACK or ACTION header the ability is mandatory and must be resolved. Deadman Switch is an example of a mandatory ability with a specific trigger.
Bullet #6 is not there to get around #1. Bullet #1 is there to keep people from trying to use "a card ability" more than once during the timing specified. A card = singular. If #6 were there to get around #1 it would have been Bullet #2.
What started out as a simple question on the use of two Feedback Arrays, which is only partially resolved, has degenerated in a disagreement over semantics.
I'm not actually sure I understand your argument... You keep posting this definition of trigger, but I don't see how it supports your position.
If a trigger is "an event that is the cause of a particular action, event or situation"... then the trigger for PTL is "After performing an action", no?
What event is the cause of PTL? The action you just performed. Deciding to use it is just part of PTL's resolution.
If you can take these 2 card abilities :
Soontir Fel : "When you receive a stress token, you may assign 1 focus token to your ship."
Dead Man's Switch : "When you are destroyed, each ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage."
And tell me that their respective triggers are :
Soontir Fel : "you may"
Dead Man's Switch : "When you are destroyed"
Then I give up... your definition of trigger is inconsistent and makes no sens.
"It's even stated that unless the card has "may" or the ATTACK or ACTION header the ability is mandatory and must be resolved."
Yes... That just makes Tactician and other such cards mandatory... How does that affect the meaning of a trigger?
Soontir Fel : "When you receive a stress token, you may assign 1 focus token to your ship."
Dead Man's Switch : "When you are destroyed, each ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage."
Edited by KlutzI'm tending to agree with Klutz a little here. The trigger for any card is not the word "may", because as he states, it just doesn't make sense. "May" is not a trigger, it's an optional condition.
I still maintain that Feedback Array has no trigger as it's a player choice, just the same as using any secondary weapon during the Combat phase. Do Proton Torpedoes have a trigger? No. Does a Heavy Laser Cannon have a trigger? No. Is there anything that happens during the Combat phase that triggers these things to process? Nothing but the player deciding to use them as his chosen attack option for the phase. Not really a trigger by the usual game parameters. The Combat phase is not in itself a trigger for primary or secondary attacks or Feedback Array. It's just the normal timing for their use.
Does Soontir, Tactician and Dead Man's Switch have a trigger? Of course they do, and they're clearly stated on their cards. A trigger is when something specific happens that creates the conditions for something else to happen. Such as an action providing the trigger for PtL, or Soontir receiving a stress token providing the trigger for his ability, or the destruction of your ship providing the trigger for Dead Man's Switch.
I also find it a little weird that in a thread where the question started out over two Feedback Arrays, it has now devolved into a debate over triggers. Because trigger or no trigger, under the current rules, you are able to use two copies of the same card during their specified timing, and I think that Feedback Array does qualify here.
I'm not actually sure I understand your argument... You keep posting this definition of trigger, but I don't see how it supports your position.
If a trigger is "an event that is the cause of a particular action, event or situation"... then the trigger for PTL is "After performing an action", no?
What event is the cause of PTL? The action you just performed. Deciding to use it is just part of PTL's resolution.
If you can take these 2 card abilities :
Soontir Fel : "When you receive a stress token, you may assign 1 focus token to your ship."
Dead Man's Switch : "When you are destroyed, each ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage."
And tell me that their respective triggers are :
Soontir Fel : "you may"
Dead Man's Switch : "When you are destroyed"
Then I give up... your definition of trigger is inconsistent and makes no sens.
"It's even stated that unless the card has "may" or the ATTACK or ACTION header the ability is mandatory and must be resolved."
Yes... That just makes Tactician and other such cards mandatory... How does that affect the meaning of a trigger?
Soontir Fel : "When you receive a stress token, you may assign 1 focus token to your ship."
Dead Man's Switch : "When you are destroyed, each ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage."
Klutz, I owe you an apology. You are correct about the triggers. I was trying to figure a way to better explain myself when I looked at the FAQ, under Push the Limit, FFG uses the word "trigger" to explain following actions. I've looked at the trigger as being THE DECISION to use an action or ability rather than the conditions that set you up to make that decision. Like firing a gun. It's loaded, cocked and aimed but unti the time the trigger is pulled nothing is going to happen. That's the way I looked at PTL for example. PTL doesn't have any effect, when you take an action, if you don't decide to use (trigger) it. Obviously my mechanical view of the world doesn't fit the game's definitions.
Once again I apologise. Hopefully I didn't cause you too much aggravation.
All good mate! 
Sorry if some of my comments were a little harsh.
All good mate!
Sorry if some of my comments were a little harsh.
No problem at all. It's frustrating at times trying to carry on a conversation where replies can be delayed by hours or days. Plus not being face to face is another hindrance. Add to that my mind doesn't work like most or so I've been told. ;-)