for those that don't know, the Bismarck was a 50.000 tons german battleship that, after proving itself against other ships of its time(even sinking the most famous british battlecruiser) in its first mission, was ultimately helpless when waves of torpedo planes and bombers from aircraft carriers started hitting it. after losing ability to properly steer due to damage, eventualy it got surrounded by british ships and was too damaged to properly fight back, even if some of the ships attacking it were much smaller(there were battleships, but there were also small torpedo-launching destroyers ) and could theoriticaly be easily sunk.

the Battle of Midway was a pivotal point in the Pacific front, and for many it proved once and for all that large Battleships were obsolete due to the aircraft carriers' prevalence, prompting the Japanese to cancel building new battleships.

I am not ranting, because I like the squadron game, but out of curiosity/conversation, do you people think that we have reached a point in armada's meta where massed bomber-heavy carrier fleets rule? with Moldy Crow, Rhymer, Dengar, Yavaris, bomber command center, flight coordination team etc it all seems like such lists are becoming more and more prevalent.

I haven't had a chance to properly test this out. I am a more ships is better person, and tend to fly no squadrons or just a few. But I've seen some effective squadron heavy lists, so I'm not sure yet how this is going to go.

Depends on how you like to play. The release of flotillas offers the option of inexpensive squadron activation's. Which can easily allow for a squadron heavy game. I've been exploring this lately and like what I see, but I know it's vulnerable due to the simple relative fragility of flotillas.

due to the simple relative fragility of flotillas.

Which isn't as simple as it seems, at first glance.... Flotillas can be staggeringly and suprisingly survivable, if used correctly.

Points wise, no. Take Imps, Your two best capacity carriers are the ISD I, and the ISD II. your two best battleships are arguably the ISD II, and the ISD I.

For us to have the Battleship to Carrier shift, we need actual carriers and battleships. Star wars ships are hybrids of both. So it really comes back to the old "no squadrons vs some squadrons vs lots of squadrons" debate.

I have to raise the point that in my own meta I've had decent enough success running ISD-1s (so Bismarck, since they aren't quite so flawed as Hood and not one giant floating series of compromises like KGV) with Raiders (so the Nurnberg or Konigsberg class light cruisers) and pure space superiority fighter wings. Bombers don't have to rule the board if you invest in the ability to savage them. Screens of Interceptors, Advanced and Fighters provide nice deployment padding, aren't totally worthless against ships, and carefully flown Raiders can devastate both ships and hapless bombers with ease, while the Imperial runs around running things over and hurling absurd dice figures. A more apt comparison might be the balance of naval power during the Cold War, where the US Navy, Royal Navy, and Soviet VMF all invested in both aircraft carriers (of various roles and strategies, this is an oversimplification) and heavy surface combatants.

As long as FFG keep anti-squadron / anti-ship / squadron price balanced, we'll stay in a situation where lists always have good and bad matchups.

Doesn't matter how many B-Wings that are flying accross the board when the Interceptors come for them.

IF FFG changes the rules of the game and let you take a 300 points of squadrons and created a 70 point carrier with 30 squadrons for each side, chances are it would be a different game at that point. But FFG hasn’t, and they won’t.

The flotillas made squadrons more likely to be played and that is a good thing as fleets without them always seemed kinda odd to me as fighter battles are integral to the SW theme. Escorting the bombers into attack range with X-wings.

With a squadron limit of 1/3 your fleet, main battleships will always have a place.

Remember, this wave had a couple of good cards that increased the AAA effectiveness on both sides as well as improved the bombers. Also a couple less useful marks of ship with duel blue AAA dice got a new secondary roll as anti float ships.

I play a fighter light list, this week I managed to do very nasty things to an Xwing based bomber list. As long as you have a couple of AAA focused ships with a bit of light fighter cover you should do very well against bomber lists.

I'm liking the following at present, all commanded by Ozzel, to allow optimal ship placement and speed.

Demo glad two with agent Callus.

Raider with instigator and flight commander

2-4 tie fighters.

The Demo is capable of putting an insane amount of dice into a fighter ball in a round(six per ace and four per standard fighter)

Instigator is run into the Intel ships to pin, activates the tie fighters who run in put damage onto key ships and tie up the bombers, stopping them hitting instigator ( keeping away from the enemy fighters).

The whole sorry mess is locked up until you move instigator out, the whole fighter ball evaporates ( this happens on the second round, in which both instigator and demo get to unload dice)or they can move a big ship in to kill your raider.

The other lovely thing with this is demo and instigator can rip through a bomber ball then just keep on going to rip into any carriers.

A major balancing factor is that if all your ships die, then so do all your squadrons. So long as that rule stands, squadrons will be useful, but not dominant.

The key difference between the battleship vs carrier in real life and this game is range. If a carrier could activate squadrons from two boards over, then that would be more like midway. As it stands, we don't really have battleships or carriers. The big battleships ARE carriers. I like the analogy, but it's a little limited.

A major balancing factor is that if all your ships die, then so do all your squadrons. So long as that rule stands, squadrons will be useful, but not dominant.

Really that should only be true for Imperial squadrons without hyperdrives shouldn't it?

due to the simple relative fragility of flotillas.

Which isn't as simple as it seems, at first glance.... Flotillas can be staggeringly and suprisingly survivable, if used correctly.

3 Bwings plus anything kills em with ease. They dont like death by papercuts

A major balancing factor is that if all your ships die, then so do all your squadrons. So long as that rule stands, squadrons will be useful, but not dominant.

Really that should only be true for Imperial squadrons without hyperdrives shouldn't it?

due to the simple relative fragility of flotillas.

Which isn't as simple as it seems, at first glance.... Flotillas can be staggeringly and suprisingly survivable, if used correctly.

3 Bwings plus anything kills em with ease. They dont like death by papercuts

I would counter that "using a Flotilla correctly" practically begs not letting them near Goddamn B-Wings.

Or Ginkapo.

That's on my list.

Don't Let My Flotillas get near Ginkapo. He will -do things- and I will end up crying...

A major balancing factor is that if all your ships die, then so do all your squadrons. So long as that rule stands, squadrons will be useful, but not dominant.

Really that should only be true for Imperial squadrons without hyperdrives shouldn't it?

He's not making a suggestion. That's the rule right now, lore grievances not withstanding.

*I'm* making a suggestion!

The thing I like about waves three and four is actually that it's made it easier for me to take a small fighter force and use it effectively. I personally find a squadron-less build a bit risky, so always take at least some form of screen that can hold up enemy fighters in the case of a squadron-heavy opponent. This has usually meant kitting out an ISD or VSD with at least some carrier capabilities, so that I was having to compromise their combat effectiveness just to push around a token fighter force. The temptation was always to go all out and just take a squadron heavy build.

With a Gozanti, I have a small, cheap carrier that can do the same job but far more flexibly. It frees up upgrade slots on the ISD, and means I'm not having to predict when I'm likely to need that squadron command in two or three turns' time. Sure it's 23 points, but it's also an extra activation and means two ships performing their specialist roles effectively, rather than one ship trying to do both less efficiently.

Long story short, I don't think it's going to mean more squadrons per se, but instead a more interesting variety of squadron builds, all of which can be used to good effect.

due to the simple relative fragility of flotillas.

Which isn't as simple as it seems, at first glance.... Flotillas can be staggeringly and suprisingly survivable, if used correctly.

3 Bwings plus anything kills em with ease. They dont like death by papercuts

I would counter that "using a Flotilla correctly" practically begs not letting them near Goddamn B-Wings.

In all fairness, you really don't want anything getting too close to B-wings.

due to the simple relative fragility of flotillas.

Which isn't as simple as it seems, at first glance.... Flotillas can be staggeringly and suprisingly survivable, if used correctly.

3 Bwings plus anything kills em with ease. They dont like death by papercuts

I would counter that "using a Flotilla correctly" practically begs not letting them near Goddamn B-Wings.

Or Ginkapo.

That's on my list.

Don't Let My Flotillas get near Ginkapo. He will -do things- and I will end up crying...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=BX3bN5YeiQs

due to the simple relative fragility of flotillas.

Which isn't as simple as it seems, at first glance.... Flotillas can be staggeringly and suprisingly survivable, if used correctly.

3 Bwings plus anything kills em with ease. They dont like death by papercuts

I would counter that "using a Flotilla correctly" practically begs not letting them near Goddamn B-Wings.

Or Ginkapo.

That's on my list.

Don't Let My Flotillas get near Ginkapo. He will -do things- and I will end up crying...

I have it on my old mp3 Player now... For ALL OF MY GAMES. BECAUSE I AM TAKING MAXIMUM B-WINGS!

for those that don't know, the Bismarck was a 50.000 tons german battleship that, after proving itself against other ships of its time(even sinking the most famous british battlecruiser) in its first mission, was ultimately helpless when waves of torpedo planes and bombers from aircraft carriers started hitting it. after losing ability to properly steer due to damage, eventualy it got surrounded by british ships and was too damaged to properly fight back, even if some of the ships attacking it were much smaller(there were battleships, but there were also small torpedo-launching destroyers ) and could theoriticaly be easily sunk.

the Battle of Midway was a pivotal point in the Pacific front, and for many it proved once and for all that large Battleships were obsolete due to the aircraft carriers' prevalence, prompting the Japanese to cancel building new battleships.

I am not ranting, because I like the squadron game, but out of curiosity/conversation, do you people think that we have reached a point in armada's meta where massed bomber-heavy carrier fleets rule? with Moldy Crow, Rhymer, Dengar, Yavaris, bomber command center, flight coordination team etc it all seems like such lists are becoming more and more prevalent.

I don't think we can quite definitively declare that "Squadrons RULE!!!" yet. However, what I think is becoming clear is that we are in a time of doctrinal change. Which indeed is analogous to the early WWII era to which you're referring.

Certainly naval air doctrine shifted throughout the course of the war for those nations with significant air power. At various times, nations were sending out ships without air cover (early war), sending ships out with limited air cover (single carrier early Atlantic), air cover that consisted largely of strike craft (see Bismark), air cover that was fighter-heavy (late USN Pacific), concentrated carrier heavy-fleets with balanced air cover (IJN's Kido Butai), etc.

Analogues of all of the above can be found in successful lists people are playing today. Which model will be best? We're still finding out!

What a grand time to play Armada!

first I think all you guys that think Armada is a capital ship game are wrong, every ship in the Star wars plot line is a fighter carrier. its a mixed force game where no one thing is more needed or powerful then other things.

bombers and fighters should be just as deadly as the biggest capital ship and maybe harder for ships to kill.

Who else has been playing world of warships?

I have, it's quite fun, even if it wasn't designed with track pads in mind...