I'm posting this in Battle Reports because this is primarily a tactics question. If in the wrong sub-forum, mea culpa

Lately I've been flying a few of my squads vs. quad Unhinged TLTs on Benchmark and getting totally hosed. Brief run down:

PS: all these lists are using what I've got. I simply prefer not to proxy. So, no IA or AT yet.

Reb List 1:

Poe - R2D2, Wired

Luke - BB8, Marksmanship

Red Sq. Vet -R2F2, Wired

Reb List 2:

Poe - R2D2, Wired, Proton Torp

Biggs - R2F2

Red Sq. Vet - BB8, Proton Torp

Lists 1a/2a: Same as above but swap Blue Ace with RSV (no Wired obviously)

To me, these lists just don't have enough HP and can't take down the Y-wings fast enough. in most of the games I've tried I usually wind up with Poe vs. 2-3 y wings. I try focus fire but I still can never burn down a Y-wing in a single turn. I added torps to attempt to up damage output, but with limited success. I've also try to stay in the donut hole as long as possible but the Ys cover each other so I'm always taking shots.

After 10 games without success, I decided to see if the Imps would fare any better. My hope was more ships would give a statistical edge once the losses started mounting up. Short answer: Nope. I've only flown 3 games so far and I do need more practice swarm flying but I still lost fairly badly. The lists:

Imp List 1:

Mauler

Dark Curse

Eps Leader

Zeta Sq. Pilot x3

Imp List 2:

Mauler- Marksmanship

Dark Curse

Eps Leader

Eps Sq. Pilot x3

The first list out PSs the Y-wings but I didn't find it much different otherwise. The 2nd list I tried to up damage output a little and add blocking to try and prevent the scum from running away. Obviously I was better able to knife fight and stay close with the TIEs but still lost. I felt like the games were a little closer though.

My main question is tactics, I guess. I've read everything I can find on battling the quad TLTs and I know that most good gamers have cracked this coconut awhile back but this has me stumped. This is what I've tried doing tactics wise:

Reb tactics - standard Biggs thing, or with Luke, flying one of the ships off to flank and maybe draw some fire. If B. Ace is flying I try to get her into the rocks and tight on the Y-wings. In every game Poe has been the last man standing. I've tried long strafing runs where I fly away to regen. I've tried not taking a green after taking stress to surprise my opponent and use Wired to get me through. I've tried not disengaging, ignoring regen and just sticking tight to whichever Y-wing I've picked to focus on. None of these are overly successful.

Imp Tactics - My squaddies Evade almost every turn and try to point their 2 red dice in the same direction. If out of position I'll occasionally TL for next turn. Stay in formation to use Leader's ability and focus fire. I sometimes fly Mauler and DC out as a flank and sometimes keep them close. I'm also more likely to Focus with these 2. Again only 3 games with the swarm vs. TLT so far but not having a ton of luck.

So what does everyone think? Is it my tactics, my flying, or using what I have, am I simply outmatched? Sorry to bring up what is probably old news to most but I appreciate the help. I'm sure I'll have some more questions. Maybe Wave 1 next time.

I don't fly Rebels so I can't give much opinion of the Rebel list. I do fly the Tie Swarm occasionally and I have beaten both the Rebels and Scum variations of the Y Wing TLT builds. Initially I also feared the TLT builds. But after playing against a few and winning over them in tournaments, there is a way to beat them. So I don't think you were outmatched, it's a matter of approach, flying and of course dice luck.

For me, my approach when facing any TLT ships or builds is to try and get as close as I can to those ships because as we know, TLT is only from Range 2-3. So when facing a Y Wing with TLT, getting into Range 1 and away from the front arc is ideal. (naturally this won't be the case when facing TLT on ships such a the K Wing). I think sometimes those players who prefer the Unhinged version do so because the ability to fly as far as possible from any ships which tries to go it close. Therefore when facing Unhinged TLT I try to anticipate this. How to fly closer? Well, this of course takes a lot of practice and careful planning. The adage of planning a few rounds ahead is applicable here. I also often see players flying Tie Fighters not utilising all the movements of the ship, preferring the 1 and 2 Sharp Turns but against Unhinged TLT you need to also see any options with the faster movements such as Straight 4 and 5. Like in the movies, sometimes running away first and getting out of range only to turn back later is also a good tactic.

Sometimes barrel roll is your friend so you will need to also see some movements where you can eventually barrel roll into Range 1. The good thing about your list is that all the Y Wings move first so you can see the opportunities for barrel rolling. You will need to be careful about this though because it doesn't allow you to take Evades. But if you are good with the movement planning you don't need any Evades if they can't shoot at you. And because the Y Wing dials is quite predictable, usually once you in Range 1, you can anticipate where they have to go to get back into Range to use their TLT and again you can prevent this.

For your build as you have higher PS maybe blocking will not be too easy, but anything that helps to prevent the Y Wing from getting their actions will help. You need to be careful when blocking as to not block your own ships later, or somehow allow the Y Wing to be able to "escape" and be in Range 2 - 3 out of your other ships.

I know the difficult part will be playing against any opponents who will spread their Y Wings all over ensuring that they will get more options to shoot at enemy ships. And the idea of flying Swarm is to fly them in formation to make them more effective. However, I find that you may sometimes consider breaking the formation and have each ships flying individually or in pairs. Each Y Wing can only target one ships and usually they will try to focus on one or two ships per turn considering that two hits alone from a TLT attack will not bring down a Tie Fighter.

When TLT first came in I hated facing them because I felt defenceless against them, but then I adopted the attitude of two hits won't necessarily kill me in one round so that sorted of freed me (I think eventually for your Rebel builds you WILL need Autothrusters) but the other thing I usually do is being prepared to lose one or two (or more) of my ships if this means I can also bring down one (or more) of their ships. So you may need to sacrifice some ships.

As for target priorities, this will depend on the game itself and how the flying will be. Sometimes if you are lucky, a few of your ships can chase one ship and kill them within two, three or four rounds. Sometimes you may need to spread the damage (not optimum, but sometimes it may help for longer matches). Decision making comes from more and more playing and how the game unfolds.

Of course, your dice roll. Basically with the Tie three evade you need good rolls to survive. If you can prevent an attack, that's zero chance for them to hit, but for most other TLT situation the hit percentages (chance to hit) over Tie Fighters are:

46.63%

66.60% (Attacker Have Focus Token)

27.59% (Defender Have Focus Token)

46.24% (Both Have Focus Token)

17.70% (Defender Have Evade Token)

32.81% (Attacker Have Focus, Defender Have Evade)

In conclusion, for Empire builds, you need to approach the game when facing TLT builds with these in mind:

- Plan your movement ahead at least two or three rounds and anticipate where the enemy ships will go (bearing in mind they want to keep you within TLT range)

- Barrel Roll is your friend, use it if it means getting into Range 1 (be careful of other Y Wings though)

- Blocking, it sometimes help to prevent the Y Wing from getting into Range, but plan this carefully too

- Flying in formation may not be necessary, don't allow Y Wing focus fire into just one ship

- Get into Range 1 whenever possible

- Running away is ok

- Pray to the dice gods

Whatever it is, I strongly believe that you will usually not be outmatched if you fly your Ties well

Thanks for taking the time for this great analysis. I noticed you focus quite a bit on BR and I know for a fact that I under utilize that on my TIEs. I feel that with the majority of my squad being FOs, while I try to stay in formation, I don't feel like I'm locked in. I'm comfortable actually having them act like a swarm instead of a school. Of course, I end up bumping more that way too. . Usually due to either a block or lack of maneuvering room, 1 of the Y-wings gets separated from the flock. That is my opportunity. Until then I'm reacting too much and not planning enough. You also mentioned running in order to turn back in. I do this fairly often with the Rebs but not too much with the TIEs. I'll have to try that some more.

Thanks again for all the help. Lots of advice and lots for me to think about.

Poe and the T-70 in general will shine vs TLTs (or any turret for that matter) once you put Autothrusters on it. Also, I don't know if it is a program error or just my bad luck, but whenever I test any list vs 4 TLTs of benchmark, they seem to get 3 hits far too often, even without focus. So keep that in mind when testing...

I find that if you're flying rebels against tlt's that a-wings are your friend...

Specifically Tycho and/or Jake and/or green squadron pilots.

They're not overly expensive, they get to mount autothrusters (if you want - and for the named aces it's almost a must), and their dial+actions are easily good enough to get you into range 1 and keep you there.

An individual a-wing ace added to a squad can give you a substantial leg up here, because you can charge the a-wing into close range whilst the rest of the squad slow-rolls in. Given a couple of turns of chewing on the y-wings you should be able to mop then up when the rest of your squad arrives.

Or if you feel like changing it up a little from what you've been testing so far, a 5 a-wing squad with the green squadron pilots (and a few carefully selected upgrades) should give the tlt's a really, really bad day