Kdubb, that is a good write up and adds a lot (but it is too big to keep quoting). I think looking at the list, if you assume Ten Numb is the target I would try to forget about R3 until he goes down, otherwise no one will shoot at the ships with the evade token.

I think you pretty definitively show that R3 stuck on a ship is as bad as we expected. I still think there is something with Comms Relay, and even more so Juke. Something like:

Wes Janson

Veterans Instincts

R3-A2

Integrated Astromech

Wedge Antillies

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Luke Skywalker

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Even when Luke or Wedge don't get shot, the evade is potentially useful. Wes can strip a focus, making the Jukes more effective. Luke doesn't need the focus as much on defense, so the target lock is safer to take.

Do you think this has a chance at being more effective at 10,9,8, or was Ten Numb really the best part of the list?

I'm not sure if Ten was the best part of the list, and although I was impressed with what he was able to do (especially against the Lancers), I think something like this could perform just as well. I will admit I made some poor calls with R3, as every time I had a choice between using another token or using R3, it almost always turned out poorly for me. Juke would help with that.

But I don't personally like the idea of Juke because your dice don't guarantee that focus result, and in cases like that, it isn't triggering at all. So not only on that turn are you wasting R3, you are also now wasting Juke. If you are paying 4 points for something, it better be triggering every time it can without fail.

*Just a side note- Think you want Adaptability over VI there on Wes. The init bid should be enough to assure you shoot first still against most lists, and that allows you to roll up or down to be moving at the same time as Luke or Wedge.

There is a rule in improv: saying "no" ends a conversation. You can say "yes, but", or "yes, and"; but when you say "no" it doesn't leave any room for conversation.

Conversation that does happen after "no" tends to be really combative, unfun, and frustrating.

A whole lot of this forum has devolved into "no". That is not a place I want to be. Let's go back to talking about ideas- even silly ones. Let's get back to "yes".

Honestly, I feel like if FFG came out with an 80pt ship that had one hull, no shields, a one die primary, and no upgrade slots, there are a handful of players on this forum who would still yell at me if I said a disparaging word about it and tell me to fly better or give it a chance before rushing to judgement.

If you're going to run it without the -15 point title that adds 4 (hit) results to every attack, and 3 (evade) results to every defense, you have only yourself to blame.

Kdubb, that is a good write up and adds a lot (but it is too big to keep quoting). I think looking at the list, if you assume Ten Numb is the target I would try to forget about R3 until he goes down, otherwise no one will shoot at the ships with the evade token.

I think you pretty definitively show that R3 stuck on a ship is as bad as we expected. I still think there is something with Comms Relay, and even more so Juke. Something like:

Wes Janson

Veterans Instincts

R3-A2

Integrated Astromech

Wedge Antillies

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Luke Skywalker

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Even when Luke or Wedge don't get shot, the evade is potentially useful. Wes can strip a focus, making the Jukes more effective. Luke doesn't need the focus as much on defense, so the target lock is safer to take.

Do you think this has a chance at being more effective at 10,9,8, or was Ten Numb really the best part of the list?

I'm not sure if Ten was the best part of the list, and although I was impressed with what he was able to do (especially against the Lancers), I think something like this could perform just as well. I will admit I made some poor calls with R3, as every time I had a choice between using another token or using R3, it almost always turned out poorly for me. Juke would help with that.

But I don't personally like the idea of Juke because your dice don't guarantee that focus result, and in cases like that, it isn't triggering at all. So not only on that turn are you wasting R3, you are also now wasting Juke. If you are paying 4 points for something, it better be triggering every time it can without fail.

*Just a side note- Think you want Adaptability over VI there on Wes. The init bid should be enough to assure you shoot first still against most lists, and that allows you to roll up or down to be moving at the same time as Luke or Wedge.

That's a good point. In my head it is a target locked three dice attack, which is good, but the list has 8 points of insurance for still not getting what you are going for. 8 points is a lot for a backup plan. Kinda like the Hound's Tooth title (though it is the most hp to points efficient wingman for Xizor. Just you wait for that StarViper fix!).

While I am in the camp that thinks the R3 Astromech card--in the current state of the game--is almost completely devoid of value, I would never advocate throwing it away. You just never know in the future where some combo might appear and have that perfect synergy.

Remember: there are still a couple unspoiled T70 pilots.

Kdubb, that is a good write up and adds a lot (but it is too big to keep quoting). I think looking at the list, if you assume Ten Numb is the target I would try to forget about R3 until he goes down, otherwise no one will shoot at the ships with the evade token.

I think you pretty definitively show that R3 stuck on a ship is as bad as we expected. I still think there is something with Comms Relay, and even more so Juke. Something like:

Wes Janson

Veterans Instincts

R3-A2

Integrated Astromech

Wedge Antillies

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Luke Skywalker

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Even when Luke or Wedge don't get shot, the evade is potentially useful. Wes can strip a focus, making the Jukes more effective. Luke doesn't need the focus as much on defense, so the target lock is safer to take.

Do you think this has a chance at being more effective at 10,9,8, or was Ten Numb really the best part of the list?

I'm not sure if Ten was the best part of the list, and although I was impressed with what he was able to do (especially against the Lancers), I think something like this could perform just as well. I will admit I made some poor calls with R3, as every time I had a choice between using another token or using R3, it almost always turned out poorly for me. Juke would help with that.

But I don't personally like the idea of Juke because your dice don't guarantee that focus result, and in cases like that, it isn't triggering at all. So not only on that turn are you wasting R3, you are also now wasting Juke. If you are paying 4 points for something, it better be triggering every time it can without fail.

*Just a side note- Think you want Adaptability over VI there on Wes. The init bid should be enough to assure you shoot first still against most lists, and that allows you to roll up or down to be moving at the same time as Luke or Wedge.

do you think if the xwings could reposition that would have helped?

it seems a bit less useful to have ps 10 and not even try to arc dodge.

But I don't personally like the idea of Juke because your dice don't guarantee that focus result, and in cases like that, it isn't triggering at all. So not only on that turn are you wasting R3, you are also now wasting Juke. If you are paying 4 points for something, it better be triggering every time it can without fail.

And this is the key comment about whether or not something is useless.

Is it reliable and expensive? Yes. Good card.

Is it somewhat unreliable, but dirt cheap? Yes, good budget card

Is it unreliable and moderately expensive? Yes. Gray area, generally considered bad.

3pts is the cutoff for most people on whether or not its too expensive for something that isnt cold-cut "add this" or "ignore that" - even 2pts is questionable but theres a few 2pters i'll use that arent guaranteed to work or go off. Had R3 simply been cheaper, there'd probably be a lot less flak about him because he falls under the "unreliable but cheap" category, making him great as a budget mech akin to R2.

Theres a lot of crap that if it were just cheaper we'd see it alot more (mines, expose, opportunist, lando crew, luke crew, etc etc). The idea itself isnt bad, its the price compared to reliability.

Kdubb, that is a good write up and adds a lot (but it is too big to keep quoting). I think looking at the list, if you assume Ten Numb is the target I would try to forget about R3 until he goes down, otherwise no one will shoot at the ships with the evade token.

I think you pretty definitively show that R3 stuck on a ship is as bad as we expected. I still think there is something with Comms Relay, and even more so Juke. Something like:

Wes Janson

Veterans Instincts

R3-A2

Integrated Astromech

Wedge Antillies

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Luke Skywalker

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Even when Luke or Wedge don't get shot, the evade is potentially useful. Wes can strip a focus, making the Jukes more effective. Luke doesn't need the focus as much on defense, so the target lock is safer to take.

Do you think this has a chance at being more effective at 10,9,8, or was Ten Numb really the best part of the list?

I'm not sure if Ten was the best part of the list, and although I was impressed with what he was able to do (especially against the Lancers), I think something like this could perform just as well. I will admit I made some poor calls with R3, as every time I had a choice between using another token or using R3, it almost always turned out poorly for me. Juke would help with that.

But I don't personally like the idea of Juke because your dice don't guarantee that focus result, and in cases like that, it isn't triggering at all. So not only on that turn are you wasting R3, you are also now wasting Juke. If you are paying 4 points for something, it better be triggering every time it can without fail.

*Just a side note- Think you want Adaptability over VI there on Wes. The init bid should be enough to assure you shoot first still against most lists, and that allows you to roll up or down to be moving at the same time as Luke or Wedge.

do you think if the xwings could reposition that would have helped?

it seems a bit less useful to have ps 10 and not even try to arc dodge.

Arc Dodging is great, but it takes your action (less efficiency) and you usually pay points for the barrel roll or boost (also losing efficiency). It is super good, but PS is also helpful in that it is harder to get arc dodged, you have a chance of PS killing something before it can fire, and you could potentially push through that Blinded Pilot before they activate. The points "wasted" by bidding up the PS without maneuvering would be outweighed by the decreased cost of a "jouster" in an ideal world (this is going back to the T-65s are overcosted argument).

do you think if the xwings could reposition that would have helped?

it seems a bit less useful to have ps 10 and not even try to arc dodge.

I want so badly to be able to take Integrated Astromech _and_ Vectored Thrusters.

Theres a lot of crap that if it were just cheaper we'd see it alot more (mines, expose, opportunist, lando crew, luke crew, etc etc). The idea itself isnt bad, its the price compared to reliability.

Luke Crew is in a weird spot: it's 2 points better than Gunner (I think), but it isn't better than a lot of other things you could do with those 2 points.

Kdubb, that is a good write up and adds a lot (but it is too big to keep quoting). I think looking at the list, if you assume Ten Numb is the target I would try to forget about R3 until he goes down, otherwise no one will shoot at the ships with the evade token.

I think you pretty definitively show that R3 stuck on a ship is as bad as we expected. I still think there is something with Comms Relay, and even more so Juke. Something like:

Wes Janson

Veterans Instincts

R3-A2

Integrated Astromech

Wedge Antillies

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Luke Skywalker

Juke

R3 Astromech

Integrated Astromech

Even when Luke or Wedge don't get shot, the evade is potentially useful. Wes can strip a focus, making the Jukes more effective. Luke doesn't need the focus as much on defense, so the target lock is safer to take.

Do you think this has a chance at being more effective at 10,9,8, or was Ten Numb really the best part of the list?

I'm not sure if Ten was the best part of the list, and although I was impressed with what he was able to do (especially against the Lancers), I think something like this could perform just as well. I will admit I made some poor calls with R3, as every time I had a choice between using another token or using R3, it almost always turned out poorly for me. Juke would help with that.

But I don't personally like the idea of Juke because your dice don't guarantee that focus result, and in cases like that, it isn't triggering at all. So not only on that turn are you wasting R3, you are also now wasting Juke. If you are paying 4 points for something, it better be triggering every time it can without fail.

*Just a side note- Think you want Adaptability over VI there on Wes. The init bid should be enough to assure you shoot first still against most lists, and that allows you to roll up or down to be moving at the same time as Luke or Wedge.

do you think if the xwings could reposition that would have helped?

it seems a bit less useful to have ps 10 and not even try to arc dodge.

That's the life of a jouster now though. But ya, repositioning would help the X-wing out even if we aren't taking R3 in to consideration. Now does it make R3 worth the 2 points in that case? I'd still say no because hopefully you aren't boosting or barrel rolling every round with no mods. R3 just makes bad situations slightly better, and those type of cards don't see play because you should never be seeking those situations out. You need cards that make your good situations even better, and also sometimes help in bad situations. Lone Wolf is a good example of a card that does that.

Theres a lot of crap that if it were just cheaper we'd see it alot more (mines, expose, opportunist, lando crew, luke crew, etc etc). The idea itself isnt bad, its the price compared to reliability.

Luke Crew is in a weird spot: it's 2 points better than Gunner (I think), but it isn't better than a lot of other things you could do with those 2 points.

Personally i find the Luke Crew to be kinda redundant and useless. I think he should be the same cost as gunner and let the Unique tag be the difference so you cant have 2 ships with him.

Reason being: unless you bumped or hit a rock, you almost always have mods for the gunner attack. The first attack with gunner is usually a "bad roll buffer" - if you rolled average to above average, mod away. If you rolled like crap, dont mod anything and let the attack miss so you can gunner.

I used to have Luke on the FatHan build alot and i shaved him off for a regular gunner because i never got to use the focus mod part since i always had a focus anyway, or my initial attack did damage (even lousy damage)

Also to tack onto my other post: even if theres something thats insanely, obviously overpowered but has a stupid low chance to actually work, if it costs too much nobody is going to risk it. Say for instance: "when attacking add 4 dice to your pool. If when you are finished modding your dice any results are blanks, cancel all dice" - if this existed for 8pts as an EPT, you MIGHT see a lowly 14-16pt ship with it just to try and get lucky, but the main opinion of the card would be its utter crap because it almost never, ever works even if its insanely powerful when it DOES work. Now, if it was 1pt, crackswarms would have 2-3 of these guys. If even one works, victory! but then its imbalanced and overpowered and blah blah blah...

Edit: My goal isn't to be Jeff Berling (though I wouldn't complain). I want to be the guy that said, "have you considered Countermeasures?"

I would just like to point out - Jeff Berling IS that guy that said "Have you considered Counter measures?"

Theres a lot of crap that if it were just cheaper we'd see it alot more (mines, expose, opportunist, lando crew, luke crew, etc etc). The idea itself isnt bad, its the price compared to reliability.

Luke Crew is in a weird spot: it's 2 points better than Gunner (I think), but it isn't better than a lot of other things you could do with those 2 points.

Pretty sure Luke Crew should cost 6. He's unique, so it's not like running multiples would blow away multi-Gunner lists (not that those are really a thing), but the main thing is "free actions" generally cost ~3 points (see PtL, Experimental Interface). Luke's "free action" is only a partial focus (let's call that 1.5 points) and only if you miss the first shot anyway (now it's .75). So yeah, I think he'd be fine at 6. But I like him anyway for being potent on something like Chewie/Predator/Falcon.

Theres a lot of crap that if it were just cheaper we'd see it alot more (mines, expose, opportunist, lando crew, luke crew, etc etc). The idea itself isnt bad, its the price compared to reliability.

Luke Crew is in a weird spot: it's 2 points better than Gunner (I think), but it isn't better than a lot of other things you could do with those 2 points.

Pretty sure Luke Crew should cost 6. He's unique, so it's not like running multiples would blow away multi-Gunner lists (not that those are really a thing), but the main thing is "free actions" generally cost ~3 points (see PtL, Experimental Interface). Luke's "free action" is only a partial focus (let's call that 1.5 points) and only if you miss the first shot anyway (now it's .75). So yeah, I think he'd be fine at 6. But I like him anyway for being potent on something like Chewie/Predator/Falcon.

Ya at least Luke has a spot. That's more than can be said for most seemingly overcosted cards.

I'm going to run a couple T-70 R3 jukers tonight, see how it goes. I'm leaning towards:

Red Squadron Veteran (26) Juke (2) R3 Astromech (2) Comm Relay (3) Autothrusters (2)
Red Squadron Veteran (26) Juke (2) R3 Astromech (2) Comm Relay (3) Autothrusters (2)

and

Biggs Darklighter (25) R4-D6 (1) Engine Upgrade (4)

or

Kyle Katarn (21) Cool Hand (1) Dorsal Turret (3) Jan Ors (2) Moldy Crow (3)

Biggs will add some meat and guns to the formation. Need to take EU instead of IA so he can keep up with the T-70's. Otherwise, I can have Kyle and Jan tossing out Evades and Focuses as needed to keep the T-70's seeded for Juke. Kinda torn on the turret for the Crow but I don't have a lot of wiggle room for points (don't say "drop the R3's" )

I'm going to run a couple T-70 R3 jukers tonight, see how it goes. I'm leaning towards: Red Squadron Veteran (26) Juke (2) R3 Astromech (2) Comm Relay (3) Autothrusters (2) Red Squadron Veteran (26) Juke (2) R3 Astromech (2) Comm Relay (3) Autothrusters (2)

and Biggs Darklighter (25) R4-D6 (1) Engine Upgrade (4)

or Kyle Katarn (21) Cool Hand (1) Dorsal Turret (3) Jan Ors (2) Moldy Crow (3)

Biggs will add some meat and guns to the formation. Need to take EU instead of IA so he can keep up with the T-70's. Otherwise, I can have Kyle and Jan tossing out Evades and Focuses as needed to keep the T-70's seeded for Juke. Kinda torn on the turret for the Crow but I don't have a lot of wiggle room for points (don't say "drop the R3's" )

I'm not sold on Kyle, but I don't know that you need engine Biggs either. Keep Biggs cheap and don't boost too much until he is dead, or try something like adaptability Wes to strip focus and enable the Juke even harder.

Either way, now I want to bring X-wings too.

Pretty sure Luke Crew should cost 6.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that Gunner should only cost 4. It's seen a ton of play at 5, but only because we collectively have nightmares about Soontir Fel and are willing to spend 5% of our entire budget protecting ourselves against that one boogieman, then end up with 5pts worth of sub-par crew when we square off against Ghosts and Party Buses.

I'm going to run a couple T-70 R3 jukers tonight, see how it goes. I'm leaning towards:

Red Squadron Veteran (26) Juke (2) R3 Astromech (2) Comm Relay (3) Autothrusters (2)

Red Squadron Veteran (26) Juke (2) R3 Astromech (2) Comm Relay (3) Autothrusters (2)

and

Biggs Darklighter (25) R4-D6 (1) Engine Upgrade (4)

or

Kyle Katarn (21) Cool Hand (1) Dorsal Turret (3) Jan Ors (2) Moldy Crow (3)

Biggs will add some meat and guns to the formation. Need to take EU instead of IA so he can keep up with the T-70's. Otherwise, I can have Kyle and Jan tossing out Evades and Focuses as needed to keep the T-70's seeded for Juke. Kinda torn on the turret for the Crow but I don't have a lot of wiggle room for points (don't say "drop the R3's" )

I agree that Biggs doesn't need Engine. I fly T-70s quite a bit and don't find myself boosting very often. (Maybe an error on my part). Although it is almost never recommended this might be a rare case when Shield or Hull would work for Biggs. Or maybe upgrade a Vet to Ello? Or take Red Ace and R2D2? I know you don't want to swap out R3 but you would still have at least 1 to test with.

In any case, I am very interested in seeing a Battle Report on your R3 squad. Casually fly better.

But I don't personally like the idea of Juke because your dice don't guarantee that focus result, and in cases like that, it isn't triggering at all. So not only on that turn are you wasting R3, you are also now wasting Juke. If you are paying 4 points for something, it better be triggering every time it can without fail.

And this is the key comment about whether or not something is useless.

Is it reliable and expensive? Yes. Good card.

Is it somewhat unreliable, but dirt cheap? Yes, good budget card

Is it unreliable and moderately expensive? Yes. Gray area, generally considered bad.

3pts is the cutoff for most people on whether or not its too expensive for something that isnt cold-cut "add this" or "ignore that" - even 2pts is questionable but theres a few 2pters i'll use that arent guaranteed to work or go off. Had R3 simply been cheaper, there'd probably be a lot less flak about him because he falls under the "unreliable but cheap" category, making him great as a budget mech akin to R2.

Theres a lot of crap that if it were just cheaper we'd see it alot more (mines, expose, opportunist, lando crew, luke crew, etc etc). The idea itself isnt bad, its the price compared to reliability.

This particular card I would actually argue should be costed at 0 points. I don't think it's a bad idea, it's just costed completely wrong due to opportunity cost and PS issues. You could take R3 and integrated astromech. Then, the one or two times it activates and you actually use the evade over the course of 10 games you could say "oh, neat".

I agree that Biggs doesn't need Engine. I fly T-70s quite a bit and don't find myself boosting very often. (Maybe an error on my part). Although it is almost never recommended this might be a rare case when Shield or Hull would work for Biggs. Or maybe upgrade a Vet to Ello? Or take Red Ace and R2D2? I know you don't want to swap out R3 but you would still have at least 1 to test with.

In any case, I am very interested in seeing a Battle Report on your R3 squad. Casually fly better.

Yeah, could try something else instead of doubling down on a potential train wreck, but I figure I would get a decent number of attempts with that particular T-70 build that way. I don't mind taking a thumping in the name of science. But, I guess I could put in a Unique pilot with a trusted build for a more solid footing.

I mostly play Imps, so my experience with Howlrunner is what is pushing me to ensure that Biggs has the capability to stay within 1 of the T-70's at all times. Maybe I barrel roll a lot more than I expect the Resistence to boost *shrug*.

I don't think the card sounds THAT bad to deserve so much animosity. It basically allows a high PS ship to take a free evade action IF they don't have a focus token (yes so long as they have a shot and roll an eyeball result). How often in a game will a ship not have a focus token? Generally, after every red maneuver and if the ships uses a repositioning action rather than a focusing action. For me, that is generally 2-5 times a game.

It's not fantastic, and shouldn't be used with every pilot/ship, but if you only have 2 points left in your squad build, have a open astromech slot, and want your player to be a little more defensive, it's not bad

This card falls into the better lucky than good category which I personally love. If I run this and an opponent runs a more mathematically sound team 2 things can happen. I lose and the opponent is vindicated their math superior team prevailed and I lost due in no small part to a sudstandard build OR I win and a spreadsheet nerd is devastated his odds failed him and I won by some fluke yet it doesn't change I won. Either way I have no shame in the outcome and have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I like cards like this, are they good no, are they cost effective no, are they good for telling crazy war stories of glory, hell yes.

I don't think the card sounds THAT bad to deserve so much animosity. It basically allows a high PS ship to take a free evade action IF they don't have a focus token (yes so long as they have a shot and roll an eyeball result). How often in a game will a ship not have a focus token? Generally, after every red maneuver and if the ships uses a repositioning action rather than a focusing action. For me, that is generally 2-5 times a game.

It's not fantastic, and shouldn't be used with every pilot/ship, but if you only have 2 points left in your squad build, have a open astromech slot, and want your player to be a little more defensive, it's not bad

But you are missing one other key point. Along with needing to have the focus result to cancel and a target to shoot, you also need to spend the token for it to be of value. It does have some power if not spent if it forced your opponent to fire on a less than ideal target, but I found that scenario was rare.

In the 3 tournament games I used with 2 PS 10 ships with R3, R3 got me an evade 7 times total between the 3 games. Out of those 7 evades, only one - Yes, ONE- was spent to evade a damage. And not a single time did the opponent have to change a target of their attacks to their own detriment due to a ship having an evade token from R3.

So basically, I paid 4 points to save 1 hull damage on a 2 agility ship out of 3 games. I appreciate your optimisim, but I'm going to disagree and say even when a player wants to play defensive, it is still a bad choice.

I agree that Biggs doesn't need Engine. I fly T-70s quite a bit and don't find myself boosting very often. (Maybe an error on my part). Although it is almost never recommended this might be a rare case when Shield or Hull would work for Biggs. Or maybe upgrade a Vet to Ello? Or take Red Ace and R2D2? I know you don't want to swap out R3 but you would still have at least 1 to test with.

In any case, I am very interested in seeing a Battle Report on your R3 squad. Casually fly better.

So anyways, here is your battle report:

As far as the R3/Juke/Comm Relay build experiment goes, it feels too expensive to be unreliable. I may be a bit spoiled by Imperial x/7 Defenders, but for around the same cost they work out a bit more reliable, if you move 3+ you WILL be assigned an Evade every time. One of the R3's triggered on the first shot and I was able to keep the Evade for most of the fight, it was perfect. The 2nd R3 never triggered, even over 3 (maybe 4) shots. Thinking 9 dice with 0 Focus results is somewhat unprobable (I est. a ~7.5% chance of that happening, I think? (6/8)^9 ish? Not solid on probabilities.), but there we are. Its a dice game.

The match-up was also unfortunate. Low/No agility enemies makes Juke about worthless, although it did cancel 1 Evade result that game. The rest of the fight against the T-70's was either in-arc at range 1-2 or out of arc by autoblasters at range 1, so AT's were wasted as well. The only long range fighting happened when Biggs was pulling target duty.

May give the list another tweak and try it against other lists, but its not impressive so far. I do think that whatever fixes T-65's get, they need to get Boost on the cheap