Not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I can't find it easily with the search function.
What is the timing of Sato's ability to replace dice? Is it between gathering your dice pool and rolling it, or do you roll it first and then replace?
Certainly being discussed elsewhere. As part of a massive thread. There was hate involved.
There was a chunk of discussion on it with:
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/227789-request-to-the-game-designeers-regarding-waves-3-4-5-and-beyond-regarding-timing/page-2?hl=sato
(Sato should be highlighted)....
...
TL:DR, we won't know if its a Modify Dice thing until FFG tells us what "replace" means, as the word "Replace" is not mentioned in the Rulebook.
If its a Modify Dice, then it happens in Step 3, and its
after
the initial roll.
If its not, then its an interrupt piece, and we'll need to know how that reacts with gathering the pool and range restrictions.
Edited by DrasnightaThanks, Dras. When I searched "Sato", there were a lot of threads and none with him specifically mentioned in the title.
I sincerely hope that they Errata it to happen immediately before the Modify step, because otherwise it'll be. . .interesting. To my mind, they'll have to clarify it as a separate thing (before the modify dice step or somesuch), or clearly state that the "replacing" happens immediately (grab two unused dice and pick up two rolled dice before you roll the new ones). Otherwise it makes things. . .interesting. Like an MC80 Liberty with Leading Shots. Throw your attack dice, roll two black dice, trigger LS to re-roll everything, then pick up the dice with the least damage.
Although, at 32 points, Sato is kind of expensive. Maybe that's what they're going for?
Although, at 32 points, Sato is kind of expensive. Maybe that's what they're going for?
His ability is extremely difficult to consistently get use out of so I have to assume you can roll attack dice, see the results, then use Sata to replace and roll 2 new dice. Due to the need for friendly squads to activate him, I can't see him being used for his point cost and the squadrons we have now. Maybe the Cloaking keyword will make him easier to trigger? We shall see.
Although, at 32 points, Sato is kind of expensive. Maybe that's what they're going for?
His ability is extremely difficult to consistently get use out of so I have to assume you can roll attack dice, see the results, then use Sata to replace and roll 2 new dice. Due to the need for friendly squads to activate him, I can't see him being used for his point cost and the squadrons we have now. Maybe the Cloaking keyword will make him easier to trigger? We shall see.
Well, its not too difficult. He's just incompatible with Flight Commander.
It is very much a case of having to line up a squadron command (even just a token), throw an A-Wing to where you need, and then blast away....
... But don't expect an unprotected A-Wing to last long in the middle of the enemy Fleet...
He's incompatible with Flight commander, unless you've already set squadrons up - at which point a ship with FCs can Shoot, do their dice modification, and then reposition friendly squads where required...
...
The Cloaking Keyword won't make a difference to Sato on release, anyway... Its Imperial-Only, thusfar...
The Cloaking Keyword won't make a difference to Sato on release, anyway... Its Imperial-Only, thusfar...
I know we're all looking forward to stealth X-wings and the suncrusher..... :-p
I don't really get the confusion over this. It's modifying dice, right? Why would it not happen at the same time as every other dice modification?
◊ Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its
effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects
and the CF command.
I don't really get the confusion over this. It's modifying dice, right? Why would it not happen at the same time as every other dice modification?
◊ Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its
effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects
and the CF command.
Because Ard, ts not listed as a Modify Dice effect...
RRG, Page 7, "MODIFYING DICE"
Dice can be modified in the following ways by game effects:
• Reroll: When a die is rerolled, the attacker picks it up and rolls it again. A die can be rerolled multiple times.
• Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.
• Change: When a die is changed, rotate it to display the indicated face.
• Spend: When a die or die icon is spent, remove that die from the attack pool.
• Cancel: When a die or die icon is canceled, remove it from the attack pool.
"Replace" is not listed.
(And as I've stated, "Replace" is not used at all in the Rules Manual. Ever.)
I mean, I'm on your side. But that's the argument.
Edited by DrasnightaAhhh. Thanks, totally forgot the modify effects were enumerated.
This is what I get for posting while on muscle relaxers. >.>
We don't know yet.
But my gut instinct tells me it's replace before rolling.
Otherwise the wording would have been similar to say Double Turbos, for example.
But's it's only a hunch.
Not getting into a big argument.
Isn't the wording "replace two dice in your attack pool."? Attack pool is mentioned in the step prior to Modify dice.
I'd be very surprised if it is after the roll, but who knows what they meant with it.
Well, attack pool is also your dice after you've rolled, so it's one term for two slightly different things. Unfortunately.
Not getting into a big argument.
Isn't the wording "replace two dice in your attack pool."? Attack pool is mentioned in the step prior to Modify dice.
I'd be very surprised if it is after the roll, but who knows what they meant with it.
Well, attack pool is also your dice after you've rolled, so it's one term for two slightly different things. Unfortunately.
Yep, its "Attack" all over again.
Replace may not be listed as a modifying term but it's still modifying the dice.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only thing you can do to your attack pool before you roll it is add dice to it, all other changes are modifications which would be applied in the modify dice step.
Replace may not be listed as a modifying term but it's still modifying the dice.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only thing you can do to your attack pool before you roll it is add dice to it, all other changes are modifications which would be applied in the modify dice step.
How explicitly technically correct do you want to be?
Because you can't add dice to your attack pool before you roll it... Because add itself is a Modify Dice action, and thusly, happens after you roll it...
What you're doing, is increasing your battery armament with things like Expanded Launchers, Rapid Reload, Spinal Turbolasers, Enhanced Armaments, High Capacity Ion Turbines.... Its not adding any dice to your pool, its giving you a higher number of dice to start with in your pool.
Its a subtle, but very important distinction.
Because it has follow on and flow on effects with other rules... Specifically, obstructions and when to remove a die from your pool due to those.
Edited by DrasnightaI mean, I have my personal opinion of it... I've also tested it both ways...
Sato, changing before the roll, but ignoring range restrictions, isn't bad... Its very risky, very gambly, because the ships with the pools who want to do it at long range aren't generally able to get usefully specific rerolls unless they build dramatically for it.... But it was at least an option, putting Ordnance Experts on Assault Frigates to utilise it!
Sato, after rolling, adds a real gambling aspect to it... There are times where I've rolled Red Blanks and rerolled them to black hits, but that did not feel any more powerful than adding two Red Dice ala Ackbar, and was more difficult to pull off in the late game when Squadrons were pinned down and sacked by enemy fighters...
I think that part of it cannot be understated, either... Ackbar is conceivably useful in every 'combat turn' of the game if you are able to capitalise on maneuver - which with broadsides, isn't dreadfully difficult... Sato as the further clarification of needing Squadrons to work, and needing squadrons to work well ... Only Tycho grants the freedom of movement, and if your enemy is spacing ships out, then you need to either be happy with only affecting one enemy ship per turn, or be VERY GOOD at shuffling squadrons about at opportune moments, in regards to your activation order for Ships... In the early turns, its very Easy to do, but the payoff isn't that great... Turns 3 and 4, the battle is really joined, and its useful... Generally there's a bit of a swarm and a slump in the middle of the combat area - and you're able to get your Payoff in Die changes, but , its not earth-shattering like having Black Dice at Red Range all the time - because basically, you're already at close and medium range, and you're basically just getting a slight damage increase - on par with Red Die additions at close range...
In short, it feels like, even if you use Sato after the initial Roll, he's well balanced with Downsides vs the Fishman, who is a contemporary peer in the Damage game.
For me, the concept that anything that modifies attack dice is to be used in the modify attack die step unless another timing is specified, and that the timing on Sato isn't anywhere near specific , (because if it was, we wouldn't be arguing!) is very telling...
But in short, the arguments are irrelevant because its not us that need convincing - its just a clarification we need from FFG...
I do suggest people try him out in a few games, before making their own "balance" decision on him... I mean, i did it myself, but I and my opponents are still only a very small sample size.
To me Sato's hability is before the rolling. That is because all the words that apply in the Modify Dice step are listed in the RRG, and Replace is not there.
By this I mean, we all know that when a card tells you to add a die you'll have to do it in the Modify Dice step as that is specifically stated in the RRG. But as the word Increase is not there, we all asume that it happens during the Roll Attack Dice step. So I get the same assumption with Replace that we all got with Increase
Edit: sorry, I forgot that the cards that tell you to Increase also mention your battery armament or so, so it won't apply for comparing it with Replace. Still, I believe that it takes place before rolling, but only FFG could tell the final word on that
Edited by Lemmiwinks86To me Sato's hability is before the rolling. That is because all the words that apply in the Modify Dice step are listed in the RRG, and Replace is not there.
By this I mean, we all know that when a card tells you to add a die you'll have to do it in the Modify Dice step as that is specifically stated in the RRG. But as the word Increase is not there, we all asume that it happens during the Roll Attack Dice step. So I get the same assumption with Replace that we all got with Increase
...unless I'm missing something of course (it can happen
)
Because you're only quoting half. What are you increasing in those cases?
Its the Battery Armament .
You Read the battery armament before forming the Attack Pool. That's what forms it.
The problem is, Replace is modifying the Attack Pool , which applies to the dice both before, during and after they are rolled... So the timing is not being specified. Because there is multiple times that "Attack Pool" is applicable...
If there were a Card that was Increasing the Attack Pool , it would be equally sketchy in when to apply it... Because, as you say, Increase does not have a timing specified like Add does... AND, what you are increasing has multiple timing points applied to it....
Edited by DrasnightaLet's just wait and see.
Either they will explain the new term, or they will re-word the final version.
Maybe. I hope.
Dras you forgot one thing.
A swarm of 13 hwk290's...... TIE MY SQUADS DOWN B******s
Dras you forgot one thing.
A swarm of 13 hwk290's...... TIE MY SQUADS DOWN B******s
I would pay good money to watch this occur on a tabletop (rather than Vassal).
Dras you forgot one thing.
A swarm of 13 hwk290's...... TIE MY SQUADS DOWN B******s
I would pay good money to watch this occur on a tabletop (rather than Vassal).
About £80 and I'll happily take it to regionals...
... Are you seriously trying to sell to me the fact that The British Pound Sterling could be considered "Good Money" ?
Dras you forgot one thing.
A swarm of 13 hwk290's...... TIE MY SQUADS DOWN B******s
I would pay good money to watch this occur on a tabletop (rather than Vassal).
I mean... This has been my plan all along.
Well, more accurately, 9 HWK's and Tycho. Yes, I'm serious.
I can see it as an enabler for Sato, yes... Yes indeed.
The problem is, they're.... Really not doing anything else...
Not for their 12 points a piece, anyway...
Which is why I'm not sure where to go on it, and with my testing, was kind of a bit hit and miss...