So I've been comparing some of the new ships with what could be considered equivalent older ships and I'm wondering what other people are thinking about these:

TIE Advanced vs TIE Advanced Prototype: The prototype has a huge 6 point difference for basic pilots, it has access to all the same upgrades, and has a superior maneuver dial. I don't think 1 less hull equals a 6 point discount.

Kihraxz Fighter vs Protectorate Starfighter: These two run the same cost on their basic pilots but the Protectorate seems the better choice overall. Two more actions, better maneuver dial, 1 more agility, and a really good 1 point title. The Kihraxz has access to illicits and 1 more shield (1 shield doesn't equal 1 extra agility imo).

Am I missing something here? Shenanigans? Power creep? Are the devs running out of design space?

Power creep, sort of? I consider power creep something that increases the power at the top, rather than the bottom. If the fang fighter was objectively just a better ship than say TIE defenders, or soontir, etc... that's power creep.

When a new ship is better than an old one that wasn't really competitive in the first place it doesn't really bother me as power creep as such.

I do think the way attack and defense dice work is starting to limit options a bit. I think it's why were seeing a lot more titles and such. I still see room though within the current mechanics to differentiate ships into having situational modifiers like the new fang, Rey pilot, Arcs, etc...

So I've been comparing some of the new ships with what could be considered equivalent older ships and I'm wondering what other people are thinking about these:

TIE Advanced vs TIE Advanced Prototype: ...

Kihraxz Fighter vs Protectorate Starfighter: ...

Am I missing something here? Shenanigans? Power creep? Are the devs running out of design space?

Yeah, the X-wing vs the T-70.

( too offensive to show )

You did leave out the titles for the tie advanced vs tie advanced prototype. For the low ps ones I guess it would be TL + evade vs accuracy corrector + evade but I can't really judge on those. Think a lot of the scum ships are getting reworked to try and bring them up to the same level tho

You did leave out the titles for the tie advanced vs tie advanced prototype.

That TIE advanced title does make a difference. I wouldn't say it brings the two on par though.

No this is not power creep.

The reason why it is not is because you have, lets call it, a "power level line". Cards that fall on this line are competitive and good for the game. Cards that are above this line are overpowered and skew the line in the wrong direction and are bad for the game. And cards that are below the line have little effect on the game because they do not reach the necessary power level to be competitive.

The Tie Advanced (when initially released) and K fighter, fell below this power level line. The Tie Advanced has since been revisited, and is close to or directly on the power level line now that it has the Tie/x1 title and Advanced Targeting Computer. The K fighter on the other hand, is well below the power level line, so it should never be used as a card to compare with when evaluating new releases, because cards that are comparable to it will also be below the power level line and would not see play.

The cards you mentioned seem to be on the line correctly in my limited experience with them. Some cards that maybe do skew the power level line are cards like Palpatine, and Jumpmaster's in a Dengaroo or Uboat set up. They are so good that they have removed cards from competitive play that would see play otherwise, and force lists to bring specific cards because without them they cannot compete with these lists.

The problem is that you're comparing a bad old ship to a good new ship. Even before the release of the TIE Adv. Prototype, the Advanced was a poor ship that needed a great title to be even playable (and still, only Vader really). The Khiraxz has always been poor, and Talonbane the only marginally OK pilot. The Protectorate is aimed at being a better version of the K-fighter, and I suspect the Khiraxz will also get a buff in future.

FFG don't want to keep doing the same thing by releasing poor ships - so they are working on making lots of ships competitive. The massive example of this is the JumpMaster 5000 and specifically the contracted scout. Compared to the generic YTs (which are shiiiiit) the scout is clear evidence of power creep - and so people have been shouting far and wide for a nerf, as you may have noticed. However, the JM-5K was priced by FFG to be attractive. They didn't want another generic that sat on the shelf, so they worked out a way to make it playable. Cheap cost + Lots of upgrade options. I don't think they will leave it this way for long now because it acts as a gatekeeper list to the top tables, which FFG don't really like as far as we can see. (*note that I disagree with this, but it's not an argument thread either way.)

So I've been comparing some of the new ships with what could be considered equivalent older ships and I'm wondering what other people are thinking about these:

TIE Advanced vs TIE Advanced Prototype: ...

Kihraxz Fighter vs Protectorate Starfighter: ...

Am I missing something here? Shenanigans? Power creep? Are the devs running out of design space?

Yeah, the X-wing vs the T-70.

( too offensive to show )

The T-70 isn't even better when you look at all pilots and not just Poe. Its actually less efficient!

Agreed, Poe is the crazy-good standout in the T-70; but I haven't seen any other pilot on the mat; he's always paired with Biggs and another T-65. Therefore, the T-65's are the better overall playable X-wings.

I think Ello Atsy was making the rounds a bit for a while.

Ello was around very briefly, but like most rebels got absolutely stomped to death by ordnance. This is what we wanted. We made our bed. We have to play in it. Or something.

Ello Asty would be a god if he was PS8+. Sadly at 7 he almost has to take Adaptability or VI to make full use of his white T-Rolls. That means he needs to Focus or Target Lock to modify his red dice. No Boost if he wants to shoot and hit.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't work out well for him at PS7.

As previously mentioned I too think that "balance" is a bit tricky when you start throwing around the words "power creep" to go with it. I see power as being somewhere on a sin wave and to me the best game would have a wave that has almost no aptitude so there is very little difference between the bottom and the top. That is not X-Wing where we do have some pretty clear leaders but also a large number of ships that languish in obscurity because they are generally poor choices to play. I really like seeing an upgrade that can boost those low ships up to the point they may start seeing play and don't consider that power creep.

Comparing a Shield Token to an additional point of Agility on what could otherwise be the same ship is almost a draw although it depends a lot on how much damage a ship can take before getting destroyed. Way back in Wave 2 we had comparisons between the Shield Upgrade and Steath Device modifications; while the SD is only good until the ship is hit those comparisons should still be pretty accurate for here especially when the SU for 4 points isn't clearly inferior to the SD for 3 points; when the Hull Upgrade came out the SD generally lost hard in comparison outside of a few specific exceptions with Fel being the biggest.

Ello was around very briefly, but like most rebels got absolutely stomped to death by ordnance. This is what we wanted. We made our bed. We have to play in it. Or something.

But ordnance itself is fine. What else do you see it on outside of on Uboats? It's Uboats that makes ordnance an issue, not the other way around.

Or something.

So I've been comparing some of the new ships with what could be considered equivalent older ships and I'm wondering what other people are thinking about these:

TIE Advanced vs TIE Advanced Prototype: The prototype has a huge 6 point difference for basic pilots, it has access to all the same upgrades, and has a superior maneuver dial. I don't think 1 less hull equals a 6 point discount.

Kihraxz Fighter vs Protectorate Starfighter: These two run the same cost on their basic pilots but the Protectorate seems the better choice overall. Two more actions, better maneuver dial, 1 more agility, and a really good 1 point title. The Kihraxz has access to illicits and 1 more shield (1 shield doesn't equal 1 extra agility imo).

Am I missing something here? Shenanigans? Power creep? Are the devs running out of design space?

Adv Prototype is a fail, but Adv Targetting Comp is monstrously good. Not x7 defender gamebreaking good...

Kihraxz has access to Illicit, and that's worth a fortune.

More likely FFG was afraid to overdo with those ships, not that they overdid with new ones. New ones aren't over-the-top, actually. They are not top-notch. Adv Prototype is actually limited to 5-man-missile-party or Inquisitor (nothing special here, move along, another 3-actioning arcdodging TIE)

And all the shenanigans Protectorate is meant to do...are things that no ship should ever ever do >_>

If you want to look at powercreep, check out the upcoming Latts crew. "Hey guys, what if we gave Scum a two point 3P0 and also it worked multiple times per turn that sounds good right?" Yes, you can mitigate with Yorr and similar, but: in the current meta Latts amounts to subtracting a damage from every incoming attack before you roll your defense dice. Soontir, Inquisitor, Carnor, Scouts (to a lesser degree), Dengaroo, Aggressors (to a lesser degree), VCX w/Hera are all ships which will have their offense significantly reduced.

And that's before you factor in that she comes on a ship that can give someone stress to generate that free evade result.

If you want to look at powercreep, check out the upcoming Latts crew. "Hey guys, what if we gave Scum a two point 3P0 and also it worked multiple times per turn that sounds good right?" Yes, you can mitigate with Yorr and similar, but: in the current meta Latts amounts to subtracting a damage from every incoming attack before you roll your defense dice. Soontir, Inquisitor, Carnor, Scouts (to a lesser degree), Dengaroo, Aggressors (to a lesser degree), VCX w/Hera are all ships which will have their offense significantly reduced.

And that's before you factor in that she comes on a ship that can give someone stress to generate that free evade result.

Luckily, all of those ships you listed are ships I am not worried about at alllllllll. Those are the very ships that need cards like Latts Razzi to exist so they don't just get to own the meta for free. Latts, outside of being comboed with Asajj, has no sure fire way to assure stress on the ships that attack her (unless you pair with like flechette cannon or torps, which I'd be happy to see in the game). It's a great card against the meta, not overall.

On Asajj though, it might be a little above the power level line. Outside of that, I think it is more than fine.

Both of these ships are terrible examples.

The Tie-Advanced was considered dead-on-arrival all the way back in wave one, so much so that they had to release a tittle that gives it a 4 point discount on special upgrades to make it even remotely viable.

The Kihraxz has largely the same problem. It is effectively a sh*tty X-Wing, but without all the things that make X-Wings usable (Astromechs and good pilot-ability). And X-Wings are already considered under-powered to begin with.

Maybe the main problem is that FFG designers failed to keep the original spirit of the faction intact and have run amuck with trying to make everyone happy in all phases of the game. Not to be uber cannon and to Spirited, but...The Imperials strength should be in fast, solid hitting, slippery glass-canon-esque type ships, using numbers and formations for victories. The Rebels should be in stout, tough all-purpose ships with astromechs and other add-ons that rely on shield to withstand blows that they can no way evade; and be few in numbers. The Scum should be in crazy re-purposed freighters that have crazy, weird surprise weapons that don't mirror the other two factions, but cause havoc and mayhem as the primary weapon. Seems FFG wants all factions to have the same ships/pilots, etc. Like why does each faction need a TIE fighter? (or similar stat ship???)......or is it just me?

So I've been comparing some of the new ships with what could be considered equivalent older ships and I'm wondering what other people are thinking about these:

TIE Advanced vs TIE Advanced Prototype: The prototype has a huge 6 point difference for basic pilots, it has access to all the same upgrades, and has a superior maneuver dial. I don't think 1 less hull equals a 6 point discount.

Kihraxz Fighter vs Protectorate Starfighter: These two run the same cost on their basic pilots but the Protectorate seems the better choice overall. Two more actions, better maneuver dial, 1 more agility, and a really good 1 point title. The Kihraxz has access to illicits and 1 more shield (1 shield doesn't equal 1 extra agility imo).

Am I missing something here? Shenanigans? Power creep? Are the devs running out of design space?

(...)

Kihraxz has access to Illicit, and that's worth a fortune.

Also has access to missiles + guidance chips on a 3 attack base. If they get the missiles off it can be brutal.

Agreed, Poe is the crazy-good standout in the T-70; but I haven't seen any other pilot on the mat; he's always paired with Biggs and another T-65. Therefore, the T-65's are the better overall playable X-wings.

I run Poe with Red Ace quite often for a very tanky squad.

So I've been comparing some of the new ships with what could be considered equivalent older ships and I'm wondering what other people are thinking about these:

TIE Advanced vs TIE Advanced Prototype: The prototype has a huge 6 point difference for basic pilots, it has access to all the same upgrades, and has a superior maneuver dial. I don't think 1 less hull equals a 6 point discount.

Kihraxz Fighter vs Protectorate Starfighter: These two run the same cost on their basic pilots but the Protectorate seems the better choice overall. Two more actions, better maneuver dial, 1 more agility, and a really good 1 point title. The Kihraxz has access to illicits and 1 more shield (1 shield doesn't equal 1 extra agility imo).

Am I missing something here? Shenanigans? Power creep? Are the devs running out of design space?

(...)

Kihraxz has access to Illicit, and that's worth a fortune.

Also has access to missiles + guidance chips on a 3 attack base. If they get the missiles off it can be brutal.

Well, it gets too costly, and pulling the missile trick requires you to take PS5 for the Deadeye.

Then we suddenly realise that the cost went stellar.

Overall, both aren't exactly that great, that's a shame to my mind.

T-65 vs. T-70: The T-70 might have a slight edge, but only because of access to autothrusters. Otherwise, the ships are pretty comparable, with the T-70 trading efficiency for Mobility.

Tie Advanced vs. Tie Advanced Prototype: I really get tired of this one. Accuracy Corrector is so superior to Tie/v1 for generics. The classic advanced is more maneuverable because it can barrel roll and still have offensive mods. It's better in a joust because it can have offensive and defensive mods even if it ends it's move at range 3.5-4.5 of its target, while the TAP is stuck with a focus. Now, the Inquisitor vs. Vader is a bit of a different story, but that's because the Inquisitor is bonkers.

Kihraxz vs. Protectorate: The Protectorate is the better ship, but that's because it's a typical arc dodger while the Kihraxz is a lousy jouster. It's not Power creep if something is better than a bad option.

Luckily, all of those ships you listed are ships I am not worried about at alllllllll. Those are the very ships that need cards like Latts Razzi to exist so they don't just get to own the meta for free. Latts, outside of being comboed with Asajj, has no sure fire way to assure stress on the ships that attack her (unless you pair with like flechette cannon or torps, which I'd be happy to see in the game). It's a great card against the meta, not overall.

On Asajj though, it might be a little above the power level line. Outside of that, I think it is more than fine.

Or they could just, I don't know, give Manaroo and Palpatine range limits and nerf Scouts and then they wouldn't feel the need to introduce cards that make Tycho unplayable as collateral damage for reining top-tier lists in a bit.

Luckily, all of those ships you listed are ships I am not worried about at alllllllll. Those are the very ships that need cards like Latts Razzi to exist so they don't just get to own the meta for free. Latts, outside of being comboed with Asajj, has no sure fire way to assure stress on the ships that attack her (unless you pair with like flechette cannon or torps, which I'd be happy to see in the game). It's a great card against the meta, not overall.

On Asajj though, it might be a little above the power level line. Outside of that, I think it is more than fine.

Or they could just, I don't know, give Manaroo and Palpatine range limits and nerf Scouts and then they wouldn't feel the need to introduce cards that make Tycho unplayable as collateral damage for reining top-tier lists in a bit.

It's not like Tycho will be facing Latts every game. Or that you won't be able to burn down Latts's ship with the rest of your list so you don't end up with a Tycho vs. Latts's ship endgame.