Rokugan without the threat of the shadowlands to many players like myself seems a bit flat.

This is more a problem with the setting itself tbh. If not!Mordor and its generic evil stuff is what makes a conflict interesting then you just know that the bar must be really low.

There's nothing generic about it, It's more complex than just having bad guys for the sake of it.

I'll take the example of the crab.

That's a pretty bad example. Tough good guys protecting the land from Generic Evil Guys and their Generic Evil Land but receiving little for their struggle might be the most generic setup in the whole ordeal (closely tied with the "slumbering evil" scenario).I actually seriously doubt that there is any originality in the Shadowlands (including its greater Spechre of storytelling influence, like the Crab Clan)... I dunno... maybe the wide access to shapeshifting?

The problem isn't that our bar is low (thanks for the condescending remark), it is that the fiction from many aspects of the shadowlands set such a high bar, that it is difficult to replace that struggle.

Yeeeaaahhh... This still speaks about a low bar in terms of story quality and setting's ability to provide material for quality stories without going for the safe territory of Shadowlands Conflict N+1.

Obviously I'm just a goon and you are just so much smarter than me.

I dunno, have you ever tried to write a (fan)fic?

Not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

I usually laugh when I realize that 90% of the established L5R canon hovers slightly below the quality of a decently written fanfic. And I do have my share of the latter.

Rokugan without the threat of the shadowlands to many players like myself seems a bit flat.

This is more a problem with the setting itself tbh. If not!Mordor and its generic evil stuff is what makes a conflict interesting then you just know that the bar must be really low.

There's nothing generic about it, It's more complex than just having bad guys for the sake of it.

I'll take the example of the crab.

That's a pretty bad example. Tough good guys protecting the land from Generic Evil Guys and their Generic Evil Land but receiving little for their struggle might be the most generic setup in the whole ordeal (closely tied with the "slumbering evil" scenario).I actually seriously doubt that there is any originality in the Shadowlands (including its greater Spechre of storytelling influence, like the Crab Clan)... I dunno... maybe the wide access to shapeshifting?

The problem isn't that our bar is low (thanks for the condescending remark), it is that the fiction from many aspects of the shadowlands set such a high bar, that it is difficult to replace that struggle.

Yeeeaaahhh... This still speaks about a low bar in terms of story quality and setting's ability to provide material for quality stories without going for the safe territory of Shadowlands Conflict N+1.

Obviously I'm just a goon and you are just so much smarter than me.

I dunno, have you ever tried to write a (fan)fic?

Not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

I usually laugh when I realize that 90% of the established L5R canon hovers slightly below the quality of a decently written fanfic. And I do have my share of the latter.

It's like children I guess. Everyone likes their own.

Some people (me included) thought that only Houses should be playable factions in AGoT, and look how it ended. People wanted to play as Night's Watch, Night's Watch faction then. If people wants Spider Clan, FFG will give it to them.

I don't find them "completely unfitting" in the setting, as it's fun to have a supernatural themed playable faction, as far as it makes sense. I cannot talk about my feelings towards the Spider clan, since I quitted playing before they existed. But playing against Shadowlands was kind of unconfortable, not losing nor gaining honor avoided two win/lose conditions for them and some matchups were autowins.

Some people (me included) thought that only Houses should be playable factions in AGoT, and look how it ended. People wanted to play as Night's Watch, Night's Watch faction then. If people wants Spider Clan, FFG will give it to them.

I don't find them "completely unfitting" in the setting, as it's fun to have a supernatural themed playable faction, as far as it makes sense. I cannot talk about my feelings towards the Spider clan, since I quitted playing before they existed. But playing against Shadowlands was kind of unconfortable, not losing nor gaining honor avoided two win/lose conditions for them and some matchups were autowins.

yeah, from a mechanical perspective shadowlands was problematic, which i would not be surprised to learn one of the chief motivators behind the drive to make the shadowlands a great clan, and thus subject to the same conditions as everyone else. i'm on the record as thinking dishonor is, for entirely unrelated reasons, also a problematic mechanical feature of the game, so i don't know that i would let the decision of if/how to include dishonor in a redesign drive which of spider/shadowlands to include, but i'll grant its a chicken/egg scenario. in any case, i think that the result is we're much more likely to get spider in the new version than shadowlands, unless the game ends up being dramatically different in terms of mechanics as well as setting.

- I believe most players were upset how dueling was designed under AEG. If I were to wish some changes in the mechanics of the game, that's definitely something I won't like to see around under FFG's L5R.

- you sir are a toxic player offending a whole community of players that have worked hard to take dueling to this high level in the game. You don't deserve to be part of this community.

- guys, I'm just stating an opinion, which is based on my own experience and thoughts over the years. Sure you can have another opinion, but this is mine, and you shouldn't be offended by it because it's a respectful one, so this trial is a little stupid. Can't you just state your own opinion and let others state theirs ?

- how dare you throw dumb arguments to our face, do you even realise we are a HUGE group of players. When we have faced the opportunity to build a dueling deck, we did it ! So now we did it, nobody can ever contradict the fact we will always be doing it ! Yeah !

- ok... well... bye

a) a card mechanic and a faction are not the same thing. false equivalency.

b) sorry that being called out for being rude to a large number of the people on this forum hurt your feelings

In AEG's era, introducing a new faction will lead to discussion, but there was always the hope of erasing any faction from the game. But I don't think it can be a thing in FFG's era. The factions introduced in the core set (or first deluxes) will stay for a long time.

I don't say dishonor isn't problematic, I love dishonor and I want it to stay as it works, but also know it direclty counters the winning by honor mechanic. I will not be happy with dishonor leaving the game but honor wins staying there, and removing both will reduce the victory conditions fan that lots of people love (myself included). For me, it's the response for the thread topic, "what's cool about L5R?" different victory conditions.

In AEG's era, introducing a new faction will lead to discussion, but there was always the hope of erasing any faction from the game. But I don't think it can be a thing in FFG's era. The factions introduced in the core set (or first deluxes) will stay for a long time.

I don't say dishonor isn't problematic, I love dishonor and I want it to stay as it works, but also know it direclty counters the winning by honor mechanic. I will not be happy with dishonor leaving the game but honor wins staying there, and removing both will reduce the victory conditions fan that lots of people love (myself included). For me, it's the response for the thread topic, "what's cool about L5R?" different victory conditions.

yeah, dishonor is super quixotic. i really love it thematically. its absolutely a part of the lore and style of l5r, and i don't even have a problem with honor and dishonor being contrary conditions so much as i have the implementation has often been super non-interactive, which i think is non-optimal design. i think the same thing about honor, but honor at least doesn't focus on making another player lose, which creates a negative experience, so think its different. but i don't doubt theres a way to make dishonor work. i think l5r without dishonor is a worse game, but not as bad as l5r with badly designed dishonor.

In AEG's era, introducing a new faction will lead to discussion, but there was always the hope of erasing any faction from the game. But I don't think it can be a thing in FFG's era. The factions introduced in the core set (or first deluxes) will stay for a long time.

I don't say dishonor isn't problematic, I love dishonor and I want it to stay as it works, but also know it direclty counters the winning by honor mechanic. I will not be happy with dishonor leaving the game but honor wins staying there, and removing both will reduce the victory conditions fan that lots of people love (myself included). For me, it's the response for the thread topic, "what's cool about L5R?" different victory conditions.

yeah, dishonor is super quixotic. i really love it thematically. its absolutely a part of the lore and style of l5r, and i don't even have a problem with honor and dishonor being contrary conditions so much as i have the implementation has often been super non-interactive, which i think is non-optimal design. i think the same thing about honor, but honor at least doesn't focus on making another player lose, which creates a negative experience, so think its different. but i don't doubt theres a way to make dishonor work. i think l5r without dishonor is a worse game, but not as bad as l5r with badly designed dishonor.

I know it's not the same, but I was really pushing for a 'political' victory condition. One that works similar to the event (can't remember the name) that puts political tokens on it. But have that as the base rule. It kinda dumbs down the 2 separate victory conditions in to one, but thematically, they can still both work as dishonor and honor. Then you wouldn't have a tug-of-war effect when honor vs dishonor happens. First player to get the political clout they need, wins!

But I agree that one of L5Rs biggest lore was the multiple victory conditions. If that is taken away with the reboot, I think the game loses a lot of appeal.

I believe most players were upset how dueling was designed under AEG. If I were to wish some changes in the mechanics of the game, that's definitely something I won't like to see around under FFG's L5R.

In all honesty, I think that dueling would be perfect if it used the same mechanics as knife fighting from the Burning Sands CCG. I really loved that mechanic and thought it to be a very well thought out and balanced system.

Yes, Political Standoff that could start as ongoing effect since fe 4th round would be good idea.

Leave single comment because my Susumu babies were mentioned...

Check back to see topic double in size...

"What the..."
Its the "spider isn't a real clan" banter again...

Oh.... Well at least we are being talked about! Yay me!

I started Spider because my friends were all buying Gempukku starters for Emperor and all trying to get different clans. My friend and I were in the card shop and only three were available, Unicorn, Crane and Spider. Friend chose Unicorn and I looked at both boxes, clean cut samurai on one and cool evil samurai on the other... Its obvious which one I chose. I'm not an old shadowlands player, I just liked evil samurai, and I clearly wasn't alone. Spider CCG wise was awful at the time and I almost jumped Scorpion or Crane. It was the huge amount of encouragement and friendly outreaches from my fellow Spider players that kept me going and I got hooked.

Spider, from when I began to the end of the CCG, was ALWAYS one of the most played and represented factions, despite being awful, oppressed by not only the older playerbases angry about some "goddess 4" thing but also the very mechanics of the game. The Spider brand in L5R was built on pretty much only the cool evil samurai clan ascetic, they were real bad guys and I freaking loved that. Not like scorpion, that are bad but do it all for the greater good, but bad in the "we had to ship them to another continent and put them in eternal warfare to hopefully kill them off because we are so scared of them" kind of bad. And its clear the Spider were insanely popular as well. They had easily the first or second most active clan forum. The fans for spider were everywhere around the end of the game and when the choice came to stay villains or go for broke and become heroes the villain side won out.

People LIKE to play both as the villains and against them. Its part of the fun.

Basically, people needed to realize that the Shadowland Hordes and the Spider really only have one difference, the clan mon and name. The only major changes to Spider from hordes were the loss of the Chuda and the Oni, we still had undead, we still had evil samurai, we still had magic ghost ninja, all we did was add monks and evil courtiers. Onyx was just removing the monks to push the oni and Chuda back in... it really would have solved the entire issue.

I have NO doubt that no matter how AEG handled the Spider clan, even if they lost their "great clan status" and were kick out of the empire back into the shadowlands they would still have been called the Spider clan, its such a solid icon for branding purposes and the name meant very little.

I would be very surprised if FFG didn't follow along. All the Hoard entails is basically the Spider clan + Chuda and oni and the Spider Clan is now the more modern term for the faction. Bring Chuda back as a minor family and make them a summoning and sacrificing mechanic to bring oni out, done. We now have the hordes and Spider and no one is salty.

GRANTED, If I was designing the LCG I would design the game with 8 main factions and use Spider instead for a "raid boss" style game, like the Dark Naga and Day of Thunder boxes which were tremendous fun and simply release a new Raid deck twice a year for the shadowlands fans to take on 3-4 of the other clans, dropping powerful Spider samurai and crazy oni and all that... but that is my magical Christmas land. I will be fine just having a normal faction.

If they went full onyx story wise..... mmmmmhhhhh but still I don't think THATS happening, but they did say they were excited to continue the story of the empire and its colony, so based on that tidbit the Spider will certainly be around and relevant, everything moving forward from the Destroyer war is too tied into the Spider for it to be left out, and villains sell, very well.

But if this thread is about what is awesome about L5R, its the clan fanbases... and I always use Spider as the example. Worst faction in the CCG for years and years, but one of the most popular, with an insanely active fanbase which, underneath the rumbling, bumbling, and snide wise cracks, are an incredibly kind group of players working to advance the plans of their dark god laughing and raging all the way. The other clan fanbases were great as well. The Scorpions had so much character, the crabs were great rivals. The lion were proud but also laid back. The fanbases had their cultures and their own personalities, like sports teams, and that was always the best part.

Hell, I'm investing my first real vacation time earned after college to going to the Gencon release entirely BECAUSE of the fanbase of L5R. I'm more concerned about getting to the "dinner of villains" then even getting a copy of the core set.

L5R had something that NO other CCG had, REAL solid fanbases. Magic tried to get that fervor with Ravnica, but that was tame compared to the crazy stories of how players of clans would interact. Someone should really post the story of Mantis being paid a few thousand koku to win a powerful position, and how that effects the tournament that followed. Its one of the best examples of fans going above and beyond to make the game amazing.

And of course...

#YourDailyReminderThatSpiderWonTheCCGAndWillWinTheLCGAsWell

When I said "what's so cool about L5R" I meant: "What is so good about L5R (that it has a fanatical following)?"

It seems faction loyalty in L5R is greater than in Warhammer. Makes me think that 95% of you guys would go crazy if something like Warhammer 40K Conquests alignment wheel was introduced in the L5R LCG

Eh, not really. The only thing that would drive me insane would be forcing me to play Crane or Mantis...

I'm sure it would really "Extinguish" your enthusiasm ... get it... because your a phoenix.....

At this point, I'm not even sure Mantis will even be a playable faction, TBH.

I don't have any doubt it will be. From the start ? it depends on what FFG's decisions will be on their release strategy.

For me, either FFG releases cards for all 8 actions straight from the start (Crab, Crane, Scorpion, Mantis, Unicorn, Lion, Dragon, Phoenix), or they first release what they would consider core factions (I would bet something like Crab, Crane, Lion, Scorpion, Phoenix) and follow-up quickly with extensions for the 3 remaining factions.

But I'm really sure they won't "erase" a faction.

there are nine factions

Technically, there are twelve: the nine Great Clans, the Minor Clans, the Imperials, and the Brotherhood of Shinsei. You can also slap in the non-Spider Shadowlands, the Naga, and the Nezumi. Going even further, you can have the Yodotai, the Yobanjin, and maybe the Burning Sands.

Yodotai..... I would do magic romans in a heartbeat, don't tease me!

OMG this guy produced a great post regarding his (good, defending) opinion on the Spider without being agressive. OMG that's amazing ! I'm not used to it, I'm wondering how I can survive such normalness !!!

a) a card mechanic and a faction are not the same thing. false equivalency.

I'm starting to be a bit worry for you. You didn't get the whole point ? I thought I couldn't make it simpler (you know simple like in a simple mind) now I do feel helpless trying to explain to you what is wrong.

b) sorry that being called out for being rude to a large number of the people on this forum hurt your feelings

Toxic to the community and dumb. And for your information, when someone just express a (simple, factual, and harmless) opinion, just don't go after the guy, go after the opinion if you want.

Plus it doesn't hurt my feelings at all. But I have very few tolerance to unfairness and I have a great tendency to teach guys the good ways when it seems needed. I do plead guilty, because it is stupid on the internet.

Worst faction in the CCG for years and years

Really? Aren't you all tired of your self-pity?

Samurai - breeder and S.L.u.t

Celestial - (gobo)BREEDER

Emperor - ninja

Twenty Festivals - swarm

The irony of most of these arguments is that the Spider Clan, like the Mantis clan, the Ninja, and like Toturi's Army, were all direct products of players. These Stronghold's and the story line were all a direct result of what players played in tournaments and their decisions as a result of their wins.

Not all the Strongholds mechanically were great, but they were almost all inspired by players. That was one of the great things about AEG.

Without the Shadowlands, and to some degree the Spider Clan, there would be no plot to most of the arcs, so come on, give credit where credit is do. Fu Leng was awasome, Iuchiban was awesome, Daigotus was awesome.

And as a counterpoint to all the Spider hate, I give you THE UNICORN clan. lol, seriously, probably the weirdest clan at the start of the game, did not really fit any Asian themes, and their color is pink. If we are going to bash on a decision, let's start here .

Unicorn is kinda mongolian themed, and those people are asian.

It's nice to have shadowlands as the enemy, the problem comes when it's a playable faction.

Unicorn is kinda mongolian themed, and those people are asian.

It's nice to have shadowlands as the enemy, the problem comes when it's a playable faction.

Let me clarify, I didn't say the cards and the clans story didn't fit, I specifically meant the name and colors. Not sure Genghis Khan would appreciate them.

While there were no Shadowlands factions initially, many tournament winning decks had more Shadowlands cards than regular ones, and this was entirely by design.

And I don't see them any more problematic than the Toturi's Army deck that dominated play for nearly two years.

And as a counterpoint to all the Spider hate, I give you THE UNICORN clan. lol, seriously, probably the weirdest clan at the start of the game, did not really fit any Asian themes, and their color is pink.

The Unicorn Clan probably fits more asian themes than all the other Great Clans combined (except maybe the Dragon and Lion as these two are thematically played straight), and their color is purple .

Uh... I guess you wanted to bring up the Phoenix or the "Literally Nothing of Value" Clan ?

Worst faction in the CCG for years and years

Really? Aren't you all tired of your self-pity?

Samurai - breeder and S.L.u.t

Celestial - (gobo)BREEDER

Emperor - ninja

Twenty Festivals - swarm

i wasn't involved competitively in samurai so i can't speak to those two decks but you're playing fast and loose with the facts from there on out. from CE to 20F only breeder was a consistently winning deck. in CE we smashed face with breeder but nothing else came together and boy did we pay the price for breeder in overcompensation by design. in Emperor ninja had a couple wins, but not so many as to make any kind of impact. we never reclaimed obsidian or onyx, won any major events, etc. it was a decent deck, but not remotely the level you're implying here. 20F swarm on the other hand never got off the ground, so who knows what it coulda done. you've also conspicuously left off the Ivory years where we were absolutely hot garbage. but the point is implying that spider was not one of, if not the most bottom of the bottom tier clans for the last couple of years, on the basis of these decks, is disingenuous to the point of outright revisionist history.

The irony of most of these arguments is that the Spider Clan, like the Mantis clan, the Ninja, and like Toturi's Army, were all direct products of players. These Stronghold's and the story line were all a direct result of what players played in tournaments and their decisions as a result of their wins.

This is how the Mantis Honor deck came about at the end of Celestial. It is an odd deck that avoids all the usual courtier tricks and became well loved by many Mantis. It could even take out Phoenix militarily in Ivory Arc.

And as a counterpoint to all the Spider hate, I give you THE UNICORN clan. lol, seriously, probably the weirdest clan at the start of the game, did not really fit any Asian themes, and their color is pink.

The Unicorn Clan probably fits more asian themes than all the other Great Clans combined (except maybe the Dragon and Lion as these two are thematically played straight), and their color is purple .

Uh... I guess you wanted to bring up the Phoenix or the "Literally Nothing of Value" Clan ?

I figured I would earn the ire of at least one Unicorn fan.

I don't believe the unicorn is of Asian origin, and yes I know they started out as the Ki-rin clan (which is what they should have named them all along). Yes their color is purple-ish, but very often the artwork was more pink than purple, and during a time the mon on the boxes was very orchid (which looks more like pink to me personally).

While dark phoenix was very popular, that is definitely not the only decks made popular by using using shadowlands cards. I don't quite feel the need to list them all out, but you know many decks utilized shadowlands cards to be competitive. One of my favorites was Crab, and I loved me some Hida Yakamo.

I figured I would earn the ire of at least one Unicorn fan.

Jokes on you, I'm one of those fans who has zero faction loyalty. I'm only here because of the basics, but otherwise, I try to distance myself from the meta/canon as far as possible (the Clan novel books left wounds on me that will never heal).

I don't believe the unicorn is of Asian origin

I suppose you mean "Japanese" under "Asian" but it is still wrong. IRL samurai were mainly horsemen and took a lot after the mongols after the latter almost conquered ancient Japan. In fact, the Unicorn might be closer to what IRL samurai were all about than any other Great Clan. Most of their stranger tradition are also strange only by Rokugani standards and would cause little (if any) disturbance in, say, Sengoku-era or even Tokugawa-era Japan. Otherwise, the mongols were asian, so there you go.

With the Phoenix I was mostly referring to their uselessness when it comes to provide interesting or even original story elements. I mean, most Clans tend to struggle with this, but oh boy the Phoenix is a true wasteland. They have generic wizards and their generic bodyguards, plus some special snowflake monks... too bad everyone else has these too to some point. You might, like, raise a point that the Phoenix watches over spiritual purity and all that stuff (when they aren't doing the exact opposite), but then you have the Black Watch and the Kuni Witch Hunters who do the same thing but while being cool and flavorful. If FFG culled the Phoenix, nothing of value would be lost - you could most likely build a perfect Phoenix stand-in deck using Crane, Dragon, or Scorpion (or Spider ).

The problem is the main goal of the Spider Clan as a Great Clan. With the direction of AEG storyline, the Spider Clan was surely going to get dissolved with Kanpeki's idea to assault the Throne. But this is pure hypothesis since that storyline isn't really official. However, it needs a clearer direction to stay as a Great Clan. The Spider Clan cannot keep their Great Clan status if they keep the idea of "We're the Evil of Rokugan!", at some point, it loses credibility.

It's been discussed a while back and I would prefer if the Spider Clan would be a redeeming Clan, where the Tainted Samourai joined up to prove that being tainted doesn't mean it's over. This would also allow some struggles to resist the temptation to let themselves falls more into the Taint and lose completely their senses. If the Spider Clan goes this way, yes that would be a way to keep them. However, a Great Clan filled with Shadowland creatures with the objectif of killing Rokugan doesn't fit.

Similar ideas have been floated and I think the Spider as a clan of flagellants and foreign legionnaires with an uncomfortably close relationship to Jigoku has a place in the setting. I also think there should not be a ‘The Villains Always And Forever In Every Edition’ faction. So, in my view, there would need to be a change in the Spider Clan playerbase's mindset with the realization that they'd be a part of an ensemble, not a perennial vehicle for the next “HOLY ****” moment that has recently become a substitute for good storytelling. FFG would also need to learn from AEG to not so regularly give people good at card games an opportunity to blow the story up. Another important thing would be to reduce the virality of the Taint and Shadow in the setting, making them dangerous but ultimately resistible. This would have the added benefit of further reducing John Wick's influence on L5R, since these spiritual maladies were basically formulated by him as tools for a GM to punish, kill and take away his players' characters on a whim. That **** is not welcome.

Okay, I guess I unloaded some baggage there, but one final thing: An excellent thing the Spider Clan's playerbase brings to the table, which I find worthy of high praise, is the kind of belligerence that makes inter-clan conflicts possible to maintain on the tournament scene. Unlike the other clans, they're probably not going to pick the story prize most likely to end wars/create lasting friendships between clans.

You sound like you don't like Wick's influence on l5r? Can you detail that more? Curious.

You sound like you don't like Wick's influence on l5r?

Wait, is there a single fan who unironically likes Wick's influence on L5R?

You sound like you don't like Wick's influence on l5r?

Wait, is there a single fan who unironically likes Wick's influence on L5R?

I think most of us don't know enough about it to care one way or the other. That's where I am on it at least. i know the basics of his involvement, but not any real details on what specifically he introduced or broke etc.