I find it amusing that people want to eliminate the clan that had the most players represented in koteis in the last two years of the game.

SPIDER4LYFE

At this point, I'm not even sure Mantis will even be a playable faction, TBH.

I don't have any doubt it will be. From the start ? it depends on what FFG's decisions will be on their release strategy.

For me, either FFG releases cards for all 8 actions straight from the start (Crab, Crane, Scorpion, Mantis, Unicorn, Lion, Dragon, Phoenix), or they first release what they would consider core factions (I would bet something like Crab, Crane, Lion, Scorpion, Phoenix) and follow-up quickly with extensions for the 3 remaining factions.

But I'm really sure they won't "erase" a faction.

It was not an omission. I do think the Shadowlands will not be a faction in the next L5R game. And I do feel fine with it. Eventhough it's not because I feel fine with it that I think it will not be a faction. Sometimes I do think some things will happen although I am not fine with it !

And for the rest, ronins, monks, minor clans, imperials, etc. Well... they will have cards but they won't be factions. And I think we all agree on that !

So when you say they won't "erase" a faction, what you mean is you think they are absolutely going to erase a faction. You can understand why that kind of logic is difficult to engage in a conversation, right?

This is one aspect of L5R that isn't so cool. We're all fans of the world, and we all have our clans and factions that we love. There is absolutely no reason to take a dump on what other people like, and this sort of dismissal of a major faction (as others have said, Shadowlands/Spider have been around since the beginning), is exactly that. Whatever FFG decides to include, this rhetoric is toxic to the community.

I think the clan loyalty will dilute with the LCG format. Back in the days of AGoT CCG people sued to be more o less loyal to a house (Martell myself), and see what happened to the LCG, people migrating to the FOTM.

I'm sticking to Scorpion clan, ofc, but for sure I'll make decks for any clan, and who knows, maybe play the better ones at tournaments (if Scorpion not viable).

But I will wait to se the game rules before jumping into the game, dishonor is my way to go.

I think the clan loyalty will dilute with the LCG format. Back in the days of AGoT CCG people sued to be more o less loyal to a house (Martell myself), and see what happened to the LCG, people migrating to the FOTM.

I'm sticking to Scorpion clan, ofc, but for sure I'll make decks for any clan, and who knows, maybe play the better ones at tournaments (if Scorpion not viable).

But I will wait to se the game rules before jumping into the game, dishonor is my way to go.

They could tone it (clan loyalty) down in the lcg but that might hurt the game far more than it would help it. Picking a clan should be far more meaningful than picking a faction in Netrunner or AGoT.

I find it amusing that people want to eliminate the clan that had the most players represented in koteis in the last two years of the game.

SPIDER4LYFE

That's because they fear us.

Rokugan, The Shadowlands, The colonies... all shall fall to the Spider in the end.

So when you say they won't "erase" a faction, what you mean is you think they are absolutely going to erase a faction. You can understand why that kind of logic is difficult to engage in a conversation, right?

This is one aspect of L5R that isn't so cool. We're all fans of the world, and we all have our clans and factions that we love. There is absolutely no reason to take a dump on what other people like, and this sort of dismissal of a major faction (as others have said, Shadowlands/Spider have been around since the beginning), is exactly that. Whatever FFG decides to include, this rhetoric is toxic to the community.

I can understand. Well, let's say I don't consider the Shadowlands to be a real faction. And I do think, we would be better without it (as a playable faction, not as a part of the setting). Do we all agree on that ? Nope. But that's my opinion.

Ronins, monks, old races all bring more to the flavour of the setting than that bunch of big bad creatures threatening for the tenth time to destroy the whole empire. AEG needed strong antagonists for its every-two-year-we-threat-to-destroy-the-empire. Hence why we had the Shadowlands and the Spider for so long. Did the Spider evolve in something else far more interesting ? Yes it did. (And it even showed how AEG ended up thinking the Shadowlands faction for the card game was weird and 'erased' it). It even forced AEG to bring new we-destroy-everything-threats like Kalima, and to go to flavour-killing decisions like the colonial era, imho.

I'm part of that whole group of people that think L5R is about clan interactions inside the empire. Period.

To answer you, moreover, you can love Onis and not play them in the card game if you understand why it makes less sense than the rest. Ever heard of Nezumis, Nagas, etc ? That you wish Shadowlands are still a playable faction, ok, sure. But to say it is toxic to think the contrary ? You're just like all these people that, once they have something, they can't even think the world without it ? Such a small mind.

Spider is different than Shadowlands. But if I recall correctly, wasn't it the Shadowlands community that was so divided on the question of the Spider a few years ago. I find it ironical you blame me for what I think, but you don't blame the Shadowlands players for what they use to think about the evolution of their own "faction".

And so when you say a polite opinion I make is toxic to the community, you can understand why that kind of position is difficult to engage in a conversation with, right ?

My point is that you were dismissive of a large portion of the community. Being dismissive is being rude. Rudeness among the player-base is toxic to the community. I am not engaging an argument about what the Spider Clan is vs. what the Shadowlands horde is. This is not the topic for that.

You can have contrary opinions all you want. It is the way you frame them that is what I find issue with. "I do not think Spider/Shadowlands should be a playable faction" is an opinion. "I do not think FFG will get rid of any factions. They are totally going to include all 8, being Crab, Crane, Dragon, Lion, Mantis, Phoenix, Scorpion, and Unicorn" is the sort of slight one would find in the courts of Rokugan. That is how you are being dismissive and rude. Whether you think they should be in the game or not, Spider is a faction and has been for years, and it has a large, if divided, following. That following does not deserve to be treated as if they do not exist.

As much as I like the Nezumi and the Naga (and the ogres, and the trolls, and the kenku...), I'd much rather have L5R being about human samurai.

Of course, the other races will stay a part of the setting, and you can have the occasional ratling or Naga pop into the cards, but in my views, FFG should stick to the clans as playable factions.

And this is from someone who would pick Naga as his faction should they be part of the core set (or first Deluxe, if FFG goes that route).

You could still have "Shadowlands" cards, and if you want to play the villain, play a corrupted deck from one of the Clans. It would be easy to have that old L5R ccg rule about playing 3 or more Shadowlands cards in your deck making your deck corrupt. Or make this a Sensei/Agenda, it would make it very easy to report in tournament results.

Corruption was always a temptation in the CCG. It would make you deck faster, or more resilient, but it always came with a risk, most of the time that risk being severe losses of honor. The same happened with Ninjas, Kolats and bloodspeakers. It could well happen again, as long as FFG keeps it simple.

About culling of factions, I guess it'll all depend on whether FFG picks up the story right where AEG left it, or have their setting be on another era. If they have the new L5R being around the time of Onyx edition, we should not see the Mantis in the game, but probably the Naga in their stead.

Now, If L5R is years or decades later, we could well see the Mantis and the Naga be part of the setting, but not the Shadowlands/Spider.

And last, but not the least, if they reboot the setting, and go back to the clan war, we'd get 6 clans. The Scorpion Clan Coup could be the first Deluxe box, pitting Scorpion against the armies of the Emperor (mainly Lions and Cranes).

Me, whatever FFG chooses to do, I pretty sure I'll like it. L5R is in my bones, I'm jsut happy I'll be able to play again in a year's time.

Spider is a late addition man. You have to live with that truth.

Shadowlands are not (a late addition). But it felt weird for many players, for good reasons, that it was a playable faction, hence why they became non-playable from the box.

Now are late additions something I need to consider set in stone ? Nope.

I am in favour of a total rewriting of the History of Rokugan from FFG to make it very much focused on samurai interactions, family interactions and clan interactions. They keep the best from what AEG has done. And get rid of the worst. Amazing opportunity to do that.

Now I won't feel pained if the Spider is not part of this new setting, or to make it clearer if it is but as a small group and not as a " "Clan" " and so not as a playable faction.

You know what is rude ? To dismiss the fact that a lot of players don't grant the Spider the right to call itself a Clan and to have such a status. Because it is totally roleplay, and it is totally what I think, and it is totally ok for me to say so respectfully. Or to dismiss it when I'm talking about Clans. If you don't get that, and if you don't get I'm totally ok with Spider players playing their role to (roleplayingly) find it offensive and to tackle me gently, then you're totally not understanding what this game is about or what clan affiliation is about or what roleplaying is about or what teasing is about. Conclusion : you take it way too seriously to be serious. And you're not being clever at all.

I, for one, love this game too much to get offended by people from just them expressing an opinion. You want to look for an offense somewhere ? Your behaviour is for sure an offense for this community. Deal with my initial remarks, make a joke about the Crane, point out how you love your Spider and what it brings to the Empire, say whatever you want about your vision of this game, but don't point fingers like that to other players, with such seriousness it's ridiculous, for no other reason than you not knowing when to stretch and relax your butt hole. (And I totally don't know if this translates well in english but I'm sure you got the point !) If you can't cope with other players and their respectful opinions, and/or if you can't express your opinions but always feel the need to accuse other people of being rude or toxic while they are obviously not, then let me give you a strong advice : don't read internet boards.

Spider is a late addition man. You have to live with that truth.

Shadowlands are not (a late addition). But it felt weird for many players, for good reasons, that it was a playable faction, hence why they became non-playable from the box.

Now are late additions something I need to consider set in stone ? Nope.

I am in favour of a total rewriting of the History of Rokugan from FFG to make it very much focused on samurai interactions, family interactions and clan interactions. They keep the best from what AEG has done. And get rid of the worst. Amazing opportunity to do that.

Now I won't feel pained if the Spider is not part of this new setting, or to make it clearer if it is but as a small group and not as a " "Clan" " and so not as a playable faction.

You know what is rude ? To dismiss the fact that a lot of players don't grant the Spider the right to call itself a Clan and to have such a status. Because it is totally roleplay, and it is totally what I think, and it is totally ok for me to say so respectfully. Or to dismiss it when I'm talking about Clans. If you don't get that, and if you don't get I'm totally ok with Spider players playing their role to (roleplayingly) find it offensive and to tackle me gently, then you're totally not understanding what this game is about or what clan affiliation is about or what roleplaying is about or what teasing is about. Conclusion : you take it way too seriously to be serious. And you're not being clever at all.

I, for one, love this game too much to get offended by people from just them expressing an opinion. You want to look for an offense somewhere ? Your behaviour is for sure an offense for this community. Deal with my initial remarks, make a joke about the Crane, point out how you love your Spider and what it brings to the Empire, say whatever you want about your vision of this game, but don't point fingers like that to other players, with such seriousness it's ridiculous, for no other reason than you not knowing when to stretch and relax your butt hole. (And I totally don't know if this translates well in english but I'm sure you got the point !) If you can't cope with other players and their respectful opinions, and/or if you can't express your opinions but always feel the need to accuse other people of being rude or toxic while they are obviously not, then let me give you a strong advice : don't read internet boards.

Spider IS late to the party!! Nobody has EVER disputed this. Why are you arguing for things that aren't an issue?

If Spider wasn't added, I for one, would have never picked up L5R. I do live with that truth.

So you know how other players feels about a specific faction? How do you know Shadowlands felt weird to other players? Did they all meet up with you and tell ya? Or are you one of those people with a 6th sense about such things? You speak about truth, then throw this HUGE speculation around... come on, man...

At this point, I don't think anything is set in stone.

A total rewrite of L5R would be a huge mistake, imo. FFG knows that they have an established, dedicated playerbase already. Making that drastic of a change would be disastrous for the game. I agree that the game should be about the samurai, family, and clan interactions and for the most part, that's how it has been. You don't need a total reworking of the history in order to accomplish what has already transpired.

I won't feel pained if the spider isn't a playable faction either. Just like I won't feel pained if ANY of the great clans got the boot from the game. However, the Spider clan IS a great clan. Just like ANY other great clan out there. What you don't seem to recognize is that there is a HUGE spider playerbase and every time you, or people like you dismiss them as not a great clan, it angers a LOT of players. The Spider players worked extremely hard to get to the position we ended up. When you say things like you did, it is like saying you don't give a **** about their accomplishments as a player base.

You know what is rude? Claiming you speak for all the players out there in saying the spider don't have a right to call themselves a great clan. You know what the spider have a right of? Pissing people like you off for absolutely no reason whatsoever! Of course the spider have a right to be called a clan. Roleplaying, the Empress said so. Learn to love it!

Nobody is taking anything you say seriously at this point. Your opinions are just that, opinions. By naming all the clans other than spider and saying they were the only clans IS extremely insulting to a HUGE player base. Like I said before, the spider had more representation at koteis the last two years of the game. That means, more people liked playing spider than any other clan out there. And you want to dismiss them as not a clan? Gimme a break, man.

My gripe with the spider clan is not the fault of the clan or the players themselves, but how it meant shadowlands as a faction got slowly ousted, and rokugan without the threat of the shadowlands to many players like myself seems a bit flat.

I've always felt it was a bit of a fudge on the part of the story team too. Fu-Leng's whole shtick is he wants the empire dead, yet you have a clan of dudes who basically follow fu-leng and are accepted into the empire.

That said, I just came to accept they are there, and the storyline, while I thought it was hamfisted, just get on with it. Doesn't mean people aren't entitled to their opinion either way. It's not insulting at all to a player base for saying you don't think the spider clan are/should be a great clan.

Personally, one of the main culprits in the decline of the l5r storyline was the deal made about the taint. Again, lorewise it makes little sense to me.

I think some of these opinions get conflated with ERMERGERD SPIDERZ SUX. But they are valid concerns/opinions.

I've always been partisan of not having the main antagonist as a playable faction in the game.

L5R is supposed to be, in my opinion, about all the clans battling against the Shadowlands, representing Evil inc.

Of course, you could, and should, once again in my opinion, allow players to stand for Evil. But I don't think it should ba as an apart faction, but rather as a seeable influence in the decks, aka "Corruption". It could be by playing corrupted cards, or a corrupt sensei/agenda.

But maybe not from the get-go?

Wouldn't it be the perfect opportunity to get a "A Thousand Years of Darkness" deluxe box? With corrupted characters, as well as pure ones, desperately battling against the overwhelming evil who has triumphed in that alternate storyline?

Rokugan without the threat of the shadowlands to many players like myself seems a bit flat.

This is more a problem with the setting itself tbh. If not!Mordor and its generic evil stuff is what makes a conflict interesting then you just know that the bar must be really low.

I love the Shadowlands and when I started playing I played them and Toturi's Army. I want them back not the Spider Clan personally but I am not gonna dispute having one or the other in there.

Rokugan without the threat of the shadowlands to many players like myself seems a bit flat.

This is more a problem with the setting itself tbh. If not!Mordor and its generic evil stuff is what makes a conflict interesting then you just know that the bar must be really low.

There's nothing generic about it, It's more complex than just having bad guys for the sake of it.

I'll take the example of the crab. The crab clans job was to keep the shadowlands out. The hundreds of years of lore of the crab is about them being what stops the empire being overrun by the horde. This was in many ways a thankless job as the other clans benefited from this security but often did not reward the crab. There were jade shortages the crab had to endure, and sometimes would have to have conflict within rokugan to ensure they had enough to keep shadowlands at bay. Even though the shadowlands caused this conflict, it had knock on effects which spawned internal rokugani conflict.

Also, just because there are bad guys, doesn't mean you can't have other non shadowlands related storyline. Rokugani internal conflict and the existence of the shadowlands are not mutually exclusive.

Some of the best story arcs have involved the shadowlands. The problem isn't that our bar is low (thanks for the condescending remark), it is that the fiction from many aspects of the shadowlands set such a high bar, that it is difficult to replace that struggle.

Why does everything devolve into an argument about Spider/Shadowlands? That it does is an unawesome aspect of L5R.

Why does everything devolve into an argument about Spider/Shadowlands? That it does is an unawesome aspect of L5R.

It's contentious terrain

I won't feel pained if the spider isn't a playable faction either. Just like I won't feel pained if ANY of the great clans got the boot from the game. However, the Spider clan IS a great clan. Just like ANY other great clan out there. What you don't seem to recognize is that there is a HUGE spider playerbase and every time you, or people like you dismiss them as not a great clan, it angers a LOT of players. The Spider players worked extremely hard to get to the position we ended up. When you say things like you did, it is like saying you don't give a **** about their accomplishments as a player base.

You know what is rude? Claiming you speak for all the players out there in saying the spider don't have a right to call themselves a great clan. You know what the spider have a right of? Pissing people like you off for absolutely no reason whatsoever! Of course the spider have a right to be called a clan. Roleplaying, the Empress said so. Learn to love it!

Nobody is taking anything you say seriously at this point. Your opinions are just that, opinions. By naming all the clans other than spider and saying they were the only clans IS extremely insulting to a HUGE player base. Like I said before, the spider had more representation at koteis the last two years of the game. That means, more people liked playing spider than any other clan out there. And you want to dismiss them as not a clan? Gimme a break, man.

The problem is the main goal of the Spider Clan as a Great Clan. With the direction of AEG storyline, the Spider Clan was surely going to get dissolved with Kanpeki's idea to assault the Throne. But this is pure hypothesis since that storyline isn't really official. However, it needs a clearer direction to stay as a Great Clan. The Spider Clan cannot keep their Great Clan status if they keep the idea of "We're the Evil of Rokugan!", at some point, it loses credibility.

It's been discussed a while back and I would prefer if the Spider Clan would be a redeeming Clan, where the Tainted Samourai joined up to prove that being tainted doesn't mean it's over. This would also allow some struggles to resist the temptation to let themselves falls more into the Taint and lose completely their senses. If the Spider Clan goes this way, yes that would be a way to keep them. However, a Great Clan filled with Shadowland creatures with the objectif of killing Rokugan doesn't fit.

That being said, it's not because the Spider Clans has a player base that saying that the Clan by itself should lose their Great Clan status shall be seen as an insult to the player base. In fact, as the Spider Clan was going, I see it more as a faction than a Great Clan, just like the Naga and the Nezumi was. From what I've heard, there was a player base for those factions, yet, these factions no longer exist. Do I say that the Spider Clan should no longer exist? No, as I've said above, their direction should change, in order to keep their Great Clan status. Sure, there can have some grudge about the Empire, just like every Great Clan, but staying the "Evil faction with a Great Clan status" is just not acceptable. It feels like giving the mafia the same status as the police or the firefighters... Does it make sense? Nope. It just needs a change to keep it's status...

Rokugan without the threat of the shadowlands to many players like myself seems a bit flat.

This is more a problem with the setting itself tbh. If not!Mordor and its generic evil stuff is what makes a conflict interesting then you just know that the bar must be really low.

There's nothing generic about it, It's more complex than just having bad guys for the sake of it.

I'll take the example of the crab.

That's a pretty bad example. Tough good guys protecting the land from Generic Evil Guys and their Generic Evil Land but receiving little for their struggle might be the most generic setup in the whole ordeal (closely tied with the "slumbering evil" scenario).I actually seriously doubt that there is any originality in the Shadowlands (including its greater Spechre of storytelling influence, like the Crab Clan)... I dunno... maybe the wide access to shapeshifting?

The problem isn't that our bar is low (thanks for the condescending remark), it is that the fiction from many aspects of the shadowlands set such a high bar, that it is difficult to replace that struggle.

Yeeeaaahhh... This still speaks about a low bar in terms of story quality and setting's ability to provide material for quality stories without going for the safe territory of Shadowlands Conflict N+1.

I won't feel pained if the spider isn't a playable faction either. Just like I won't feel pained if ANY of the great clans got the boot from the game. However, the Spider clan IS a great clan. Just like ANY other great clan out there. What you don't seem to recognize is that there is a HUGE spider playerbase and every time you, or people like you dismiss them as not a great clan, it angers a LOT of players. The Spider players worked extremely hard to get to the position we ended up. When you say things like you did, it is like saying you don't give a **** about their accomplishments as a player base.

You know what is rude? Claiming you speak for all the players out there in saying the spider don't have a right to call themselves a great clan. You know what the spider have a right of? Pissing people like you off for absolutely no reason whatsoever! Of course the spider have a right to be called a clan. Roleplaying, the Empress said so. Learn to love it!

Nobody is taking anything you say seriously at this point. Your opinions are just that, opinions. By naming all the clans other than spider and saying they were the only clans IS extremely insulting to a HUGE player base. Like I said before, the spider had more representation at koteis the last two years of the game. That means, more people liked playing spider than any other clan out there. And you want to dismiss them as not a clan? Gimme a break, man.

The problem is the main goal of the Spider Clan as a Great Clan. With the direction of AEG storyline, the Spider Clan was surely going to get dissolved with Kanpeki's idea to assault the Throne. But this is pure hypothesis since that storyline isn't really official. However, it needs a clearer direction to stay as a Great Clan. The Spider Clan cannot keep their Great Clan status if they keep the idea of "We're the Evil of Rokugan!", at some point, it loses credibility.

It's been discussed a while back and I would prefer if the Spider Clan would be a redeeming Clan, where the Tainted Samourai joined up to prove that being tainted doesn't mean it's over. This would also allow some struggles to resist the temptation to let themselves falls more into the Taint and lose completely their senses. If the Spider Clan goes this way, yes that would be a way to keep them. However, a Great Clan filled with Shadowland creatures with the objectif of killing Rokugan doesn't fit.

That being said, it's not because the Spider Clans has a player base that saying that the Clan by itself should lose their Great Clan status shall be seen as an insult to the player base. In fact, as the Spider Clan was going, I see it more as a faction than a Great Clan, just like the Naga and the Nezumi was. From what I've heard, there was a player base for those factions, yet, these factions no longer exist. Do I say that the Spider Clan should no longer exist? No, as I've said above, their direction should change, in order to keep their Great Clan status. Sure, there can have some grudge about the Empire, just like every Great Clan, but staying the "Evil faction with a Great Clan status" is just not acceptable. It feels like giving the mafia the same status as the police or the firefighters... Does it make sense? Nope. It just needs a change to keep it's status...

I get what you're saying lore-wise. Sure, in a lot of aspects, the spider clan doesn't make sense in the setting. My argument isn't about that. My argument is geared more towards people always dismissing the most popular clan as playable in L5R 2.0 just because they don't like them... or that they weren't around the entirety of the game... or whatever dumb reason they can think of. The spider clan had a HUGE fan base and that fan base made it known that they loved playing that faction as factual tournament results have shown. Saying things like 'All the clans' and leaving out spider is an insult to the spider players. 'All the clans' INCLUDES the spider because spider IS a clan and was played and loved by MANY people!

Lore-wise, I don't think the spider should have ever been a great clan. I think it's pretty dumb, tbh. But when we (as a spider player base) are faced with the decision of 'Make Spider a great clan or have the Spider clan go away forever', people wanted to keep the spider. I know I did! So that's the way it turned out. If L5R 2.0 comes out and has spider as a playable faction and not a great clan, I'll be fine with that. To me, Spider doesn't need to be a great clan. They weren't when I first started playing the game so...

There are two great conflicts within the narrative structure of L5R.

One is the "Sengoku Jidai" stories where the Great Clans war against each other for dominance / power. We see this in various forms throughout the Four Winds era story, but also in the "Age of Exploration" and the Two Heirs conflicts. While these are mildly enjoyable, and arguably far more sustainable, they have suffered from a lack of cohesive vision and centralized storytelling to really drive a compelling narrative. Honestly, this is the best part of the story of the Scorpion Clan Coup, where you have samurai fighting samurai for entirely honorable reasons, if through less than honorable methods.

In these conflicts, the Spider Clan makes sense. They can be villainous without being THE villain, evil without being THE Big Bad. Having a Clan of fearsome, supernaturally evil samurai who still serve the Will of Heaven leads to a more anti-dualistic setting.

The other great conflict is the "Lord of the Rings" style war against an existential, supernatural threat. The whole of the Empire must come together to save the world from some supernatural force of evil. This is the later half of the Clan War, Four Winds, Destroyer War, the Race to Volturnum, etc. This is the default L5R mega-conflict, take it or leave it. In these conflict? The Shadowlands Horde makes sense, as they serve as the main antagonist faction. They get to be The Monster, the Bad Guy, the Villain. And the story is richer for it. Honestly, the best CCG / mainline stories in L5R comes from these arcs, because they have a driving narrative focus and do not get muddled or confused.

It is HARD to write a story without bad guys, especially high fantasy epic warrior stories. It is a more accessible story to American audiences as well (where the bulk of CCG sales happen). Most of the writers of L5R have been more influenced by "Lord of the Rings" and "Star Wars" than "Romance of the Three Kingdoms", "Journey to the West", or "Tale of Genji". And there is nothing wrong with that.

However, and I am saying this as a Spider Clan player who truly has rarely felt more welcome in a community than I have among them, the Spider Clan was a separate identity than the Shadowlands Horde. There is crossover, yes, but they are not truly synonymous with one another, something brought up and showcased inside the game itself mechanically. Interestingly, towards the end of Ivory, there was an emergent identity forming out of both groups that actually WAS a unique synthesis of the two, but that never reached sufficient mass to fully develop.

Ultimately, we do not know the direction FFG will take the game. We do not know the fate of the factions we have chosen to invest ourselves in these last two decades, but I suspect we will see at least seven Great Clans in the new LCG, possibly eight. Possibly even nine. And maybe we will see more factions. Only FFG knows, and they're not talking.

But if you want to know one reason why L5R is awesome? It is because EVERYONE has an opinion about the Spider Clan, and they will drop EVERYTHING to argue with each other about it.

Rokugan without the threat of the shadowlands to many players like myself seems a bit flat.

This is more a problem with the setting itself tbh. If not!Mordor and its generic evil stuff is what makes a conflict interesting then you just know that the bar must be really low.

There's nothing generic about it, It's more complex than just having bad guys for the sake of it.

I'll take the example of the crab.

That's a pretty bad example. Tough good guys protecting the land from Generic Evil Guys and their Generic Evil Land but receiving little for their struggle might be the most generic setup in the whole ordeal (closely tied with the "slumbering evil" scenario).I actually seriously doubt that there is any originality in the Shadowlands (including its greater Spechre of storytelling influence, like the Crab Clan)... I dunno... maybe the wide access to shapeshifting?

The problem isn't that our bar is low (thanks for the condescending remark), it is that the fiction from many aspects of the shadowlands set such a high bar, that it is difficult to replace that struggle.

Yeeeaaahhh... This still speaks about a low bar in terms of story quality and setting's ability to provide material for quality stories without going for the safe territory of Shadowlands Conflict N+1.

Obviously I'm just a goon and you are just so much smarter than me.

Rokugan without the threat of the shadowlands to many players like myself seems a bit flat.

This is more a problem with the setting itself tbh. If not!Mordor and its generic evil stuff is what makes a conflict interesting then you just know that the bar must be really low.

There's nothing generic about it, It's more complex than just having bad guys for the sake of it.

I'll take the example of the crab.

That's a pretty bad example. Tough good guys protecting the land from Generic Evil Guys and their Generic Evil Land but receiving little for their struggle might be the most generic setup in the whole ordeal (closely tied with the "slumbering evil" scenario).I actually seriously doubt that there is any originality in the Shadowlands (including its greater Spechre of storytelling influence, like the Crab Clan)... I dunno... maybe the wide access to shapeshifting?

The problem isn't that our bar is low (thanks for the condescending remark), it is that the fiction from many aspects of the shadowlands set such a high bar, that it is difficult to replace that struggle.

Yeeeaaahhh... This still speaks about a low bar in terms of story quality and setting's ability to provide material for quality stories without going for the safe territory of Shadowlands Conflict N+1.

Obviously I'm just a goon and you are just so much smarter than me.

I dunno, have you ever tried to write a (fan)fic?

Rokugan without the threat of the shadowlands to many players like myself seems a bit flat.

This is more a problem with the setting itself tbh. If not!Mordor and its generic evil stuff is what makes a conflict interesting then you just know that the bar must be really low.

There's nothing generic about it, It's more complex than just having bad guys for the sake of it.

I'll take the example of the crab.

That's a pretty bad example. Tough good guys protecting the land from Generic Evil Guys and their Generic Evil Land but receiving little for their struggle might be the most generic setup in the whole ordeal (closely tied with the "slumbering evil" scenario).I actually seriously doubt that there is any originality in the Shadowlands (including its greater Spechre of storytelling influence, like the Crab Clan)... I dunno... maybe the wide access to shapeshifting?

The problem isn't that our bar is low (thanks for the condescending remark), it is that the fiction from many aspects of the shadowlands set such a high bar, that it is difficult to replace that struggle.

Yeeeaaahhh... This still speaks about a low bar in terms of story quality and setting's ability to provide material for quality stories without going for the safe territory of Shadowlands Conflict N+1.

Obviously I'm just a goon and you are just so much smarter than me.

I dunno, have you ever tried to write a (fan)fic?

Not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

However, and I am saying this as a Spider Clan player who truly has rarely felt more welcome in a community than I have among them, the Spider Clan was a separate identity than the Shadowlands Horde. There is crossover, yes, but they are not truly synonymous with one another, something brought up and showcased inside the game itself mechanically. Interestingly, towards the end of Ivory, there was an emergent identity forming out of both groups that actually WAS a unique synthesis of the two, but that never reached sufficient mass to fully develop.

This right here! Absolutely this!!!!

And there is a huge difference between shadowlands players and spider players as well. Sure, most Shadowlands players went to play spider, but I think the bulk of Spider players were actual Spider players. In fact, for the most part, there was even a separate SH for Shadowlands players to play the big bad monsters and had nothing to do with the spider.