WOW!!!!

It seems to me that the Winter Court series were all just wastes of everyone's time!

I guess it's just best to do away with them altogether in that aspect.

I really didn't know that so many people put in so much of their time for no reason. This is crazy news to me!

Honestly, I thought the Winter Court series were great because people who don't like or play the CCG got a chance to influence the story... But ****!!! I had no idea how little to no story came out of Winter Courts... or were just not what people were playing for.

Definitely not a good return-on-investment if you're looking for story impact. A lot of players probably played just for the chance to play and enjoy the experience, so in that regard it wasn't a waste.

WOW!!!!

It seems to me that the Winter Court series were all just wastes of everyone's time!

I guess it's just best to do away with them altogether in that aspect.

I really didn't know that so many people put in so much of their time for no reason. This is crazy news to me!

Honestly, I thought the Winter Court series were great because people who don't like or play the CCG got a chance to influence the story... But ****!!! I had no idea how little to no story came out of Winter Courts... or were just not what people were playing for.

Definitely not a good return-on-investment if you're looking for story impact. A lot of players probably played just for the chance to play and enjoy the experience, so in that regard it wasn't a waste.

But what experience was enjoyed?? I mean... I have always hated getting lied to and I don't think other people enjoy being lied to so how were they enjoying it?

But what experience was enjoyed??

Is this, like, a trick question? The roleplaying experience of course. You don't need a consistent story to enjoy that. Otherwise, L5R as a whole would be unenjoyable.

But what experience was enjoyed??

Is this, like, a trick question? The roleplaying experience of course. You don't need a consistent story to enjoy that. Otherwise, L5R as a whole would be unenjoyable.

Uhhhh. I get that. But roleplaying can be done anywhere with anyone. Just like playing pick me up games of the CCG can be done anywhere with anyone... But going to major tournaments in order to effect the story is the reason I went to the major tournaments. I thought that was the entire point of the Winter Court series. You know... to effect the story. If there is no effecting the story, then what is the entire point in having them? And why was everyone told that Winter Court WILL effect the story when it doesn't?? There's no fun in that at all. I don't get it.

But what experience was enjoyed??

Is this, like, a trick question? The roleplaying experience of course. You don't need a consistent story to enjoy that. Otherwise, L5R as a whole would be unenjoyable.

Uhhhh. I get that. But roleplaying can be done anywhere with anyone. Just like playing pick me up games of the CCG can be done anywhere with anyone... But going to major tournaments in order to effect the story is the reason I went to the major tournaments. I thought that was the entire point of the Winter Court series. You know... to effect the story. If there is no effecting the story, then what is the entire point in having them? And why was everyone told that Winter Court WILL effect the story when it doesn't?? There's no fun in that at all. I don't get it.

Some people don't care about affecting the story; they just wanted to play.

But what experience was enjoyed??

Is this, like, a trick question? The roleplaying experience of course. You don't need a consistent story to enjoy that. Otherwise, L5R as a whole would be unenjoyable.

Uhhhh. I get that. But roleplaying can be done anywhere with anyone. Just like playing pick me up games of the CCG can be done anywhere with anyone... But going to major tournaments in order to effect the story is the reason I went to the major tournaments. I thought that was the entire point of the Winter Court series. You know... to effect the story. If there is no effecting the story, then what is the entire point in having them? And why was everyone told that Winter Court WILL effect the story when it doesn't?? There's no fun in that at all. I don't get it.

Some people don't care about affecting the story; they just wanted to play.

Ok... Apparently, I'm not making myself clear on this because people keep answering the questions I'm not asking. I know people want to play.

I'm asking what the entire point of Winter Court is. It was advertised as a chance for non CCG players to effect the story. It was (I thought) the main reason people were interested in playing in it. If that's not the case (as people have stated), then what makes Winter Court any different than playing with friends on any other given day?

My example of playing between pick up games and major tournaments for the CCG. There's a BIG difference. What's so special about Winter Court if it's no different than playing casually with friends?

But what experience was enjoyed??

Is this, like, a trick question? The roleplaying experience of course. You don't need a consistent story to enjoy that. Otherwise, L5R as a whole would be unenjoyable.

Uhhhh. I get that. But roleplaying can be done anywhere with anyone. Just like playing pick me up games of the CCG can be done anywhere with anyone... But going to major tournaments in order to effect the story is the reason I went to the major tournaments. I thought that was the entire point of the Winter Court series. You know... to effect the story. If there is no effecting the story, then what is the entire point in having them? And why was everyone told that Winter Court WILL effect the story when it doesn't?? There's no fun in that at all. I don't get it.

Some people don't care about affecting the story; they just wanted to play.

Ok... Apparently, I'm not making myself clear on this because people keep answering the questions I'm not asking. I know people want to play.

I'm asking what the entire point of Winter Court is. It was advertised as a chance for non CCG players to effect the story. It was (I thought) the main reason people were interested in playing in it. If that's not the case (as people have stated), then what makes Winter Court any different than playing with friends on any other given day?

My example of playing between pick up games and major tournaments for the CCG. There's a BIG difference. What's so special about Winter Court if it's no different than playing casually with friends?

Am i wrong, or some WC PC appeared on cards in CCG?

I'm not going to write a lot, because you need to read stuff by yourself. Yes you do.

You want to know the L5R setting better ? Just (download for free and) read the RPG 3rd or 4th edition book, and you will have the answers to all your questions. Of course we could describe to you the settings, but it will be incomplete AND you won't feel and grasp the setting the same way you would otherwise. L5R appeals to your imagination a lot. It's a univers that really takes you somewhere else... you need to feel it for youself by reading the basic books of the RPG.

About the mechanics, the rules have changed a bit over the years. But moreover the card design have changed a lot depending on the period you're considering. The global mechanics of the game are amazing. I would even dare say the best I've ever played. But it often got a bit messy with the card design and the overall balance of the game. AEG tried to do too much too hard, and often the better is the enemy of the good.

Can you tell me where I can find the RPG 3rd and 4th edition books, because I can´t find a pdf download anywhere and I really want to read them.

P.S. I probably haven't looked hard enough and I am sorry if I missed something obvious somewhere.

Am i wrong, or some WC PC appeared on cards in CCG?

You're not wrong.

Moreover, once expectations got a little more realistic, we did start having a canon impact. The Unicorn/Phoenix peace efforts were able to bleed over into the tenor of the relevant stories (And Taisho's sneaky treaty with the Crab even came into play! Admittedly, less sneakily than we wrote it up) and the Colonial conflict got entirely defanged.

The Spider at WCIV just got one of the worst hosings, because the Spider were hamstrung by their delegation's players having NO EARTHLY IDEA what was coming.

It is regrettable that the concerns of the metastory had to take precedence over what the players were doing. That's part of the constraints of trying to get the RPG to affect the storyline.

Ok... Apparently, I'm not making myself clear on this because people keep answering the questions I'm not asking. I know people want to play.

I'm asking what the entire point of Winter Court is. It was advertised as a chance for non CCG players to effect the story. It was (I thought) the main reason people were interested in playing in it. If that's not the case (as people have stated), then what makes Winter Court any different than playing with friends on any other given day?

My example of playing between pick up games and major tournaments for the CCG. There's a BIG difference. What's so special about Winter Court if it's no different than playing casually with friends?

You get to effect the story. It's just that you're effecting it within the framework of a pre-written narrative. I think it's more about small personal moments than major policy changes. All the character's interactions are canon and even if they don't end up effect the overall story they're still important to the involved.

When the cards were at the printers a year ahead.

6-7 months for printing/shipping. Maybe actually a year if you add design/playtest.

The 6-7 month printing lead ups would have been fine if the Spring/Summer sets were designed to be more result ambiguous. The Fall set should have been the first set with actual Winter Court results.

The problem I see is that Spring/Summer sets such as Thunderous Acclaim were designed assuming certain results before The winter Courts were completed.

To address Sparks' criticism directly...

I have played L5R for the better part of two decades. During that time, despite my activity in the tournament scene, I never impacted the world. Not once. The selling point of L5R, after all, is the promise that we are telling this story together, and we will impact it.

Leaving aside the political achievements the Spider Clan managed during Winter Court IV only to have not matter? I can honestly say that I have now had my impact on L5R, a tiny small corner of the story that is mine. Susumu Naishi is mentioned in two fictions, and the House of the Orange Blossom (a staple of my RPG tabletop games) is in the L5R Atlas of Rokugan as existing in Toshi Ranbo.

The real pain comes not from our political successes being blown up, but really from the fact that we worked HARD to prove the assumptions of the Spider Clan wrong... only to get trumped by the design team after we thought we succeeded.

Reading this thread got me more interested in this game. Good job everyone *thumbs up*

I started looking to buy some starter sets for the CCG now to tide me over until FFG get their product out, but I can only find them in the US and that leads to a 120$ ++ shipping cost. Bummed out I found out about this game to late.

Reading this thread got me more interested in this game. Good job everyone *thumbs up*

I started looking to buy some starter sets for the CCG now to tide me over until FFG get their product out, but I can only find them in the US and that leads to a 120$ ++ shipping cost. Bummed out I found out about this game to late.

theres always sun and moon! its not as good as having the cards in your hands, but if you are interested in the play, its a very good simulator, and theres still some online play going on.

Reading this thread got me more interested in this game. Good job everyone *thumbs up*

I started looking to buy some starter sets for the CCG now to tide me over until FFG get their product out, but I can only find them in the US and that leads to a 120$ ++ shipping cost. Bummed out I found out about this game to late.

theres always sun and moon! its not as good as having the cards in your hands, but if you are interested in the play, its a very good simulator, and theres still some online play going on.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am a bit compulsive about owning things xD Trying to figure out what is included in the Twenty Festival starter display at the moment to see if that's a good start (though it's like 80$ for the game and 100$ for shipping lol).

Maybe I should just wait for FFG to get their product out =3

Reading this thread got me more interested in this game. Good job everyone *thumbs up*

I started looking to buy some starter sets for the CCG now to tide me over until FFG get their product out, but I can only find them in the US and that leads to a 120$ ++ shipping cost. Bummed out I found out about this game to late.

theres always sun and moon! its not as good as having the cards in your hands, but if you are interested in the play, its a very good simulator, and theres still some online play going on.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am a bit compulsive about owning things xD Trying to figure out what is included in the Twenty Festival starter display at the moment to see if that's a good start (though it's like 80$ for the game and 100$ for shipping lol).

Maybe I should just wait for FFG to get their product out =3

Display contains 9 Clans starter decks. Every starter is a metal tin box (deckbox) with preconstructed 40/40 Deck and 3 additional boosters inside.

https://www.l5r.com/2015/03/22/twenty-festivals-starter-deck-pdfs/

And fresh installed Sun and Moon comes with all Twenty Festivals starter decklists so you can easily check all these decks visually.

The real pain comes not from our political successes being blown up, but really from the fact that we worked HARD to prove the assumptions of the Spider Clan wrong... only to get trumped by the design team after we thought we succeeded.

And it's worth mentioning that after Winter Court IV, nobody who actually PLAYED in it didn't see the Spider as viable- there were clans in opposition (The Crab, Scorpion, Phoenixm and Lion all had varying degrees of hostility toward them- and by "varying" I mostly mean "opinion differed on how best to kill them"), but even they had to at least TALK to the Spider as fellow samurai. Everybody else was downright chummy with them because the Susumu schmoozed so very, very well.

Had the Winter Court IV end state become the status quo, the Spider might have had a future of sorts within the Empire.

So, I saw someone recommending the uncertain to download a free copy of an older RPG book, but google's not helping me find any. Is that still a thing or am I dumb?

This is one aspect of L5R that isn't so cool. We're all fans of the world, and we all have our clans and factions that we love. There is absolutely no reason to take a dump on what other people like, and this sort of dismissal of a major faction (as others have said, Shadowlands/Spider have been around since the beginning), is exactly that. Whatever FFG decides to include, this rhetoric is toxic to the community.

First, about the bolded part: no. the Shadowlands/Junzo's Army have been around since the beginning. The Spider came latter and was the brainchild of a Mary Sue character that makes the setting crappier just by existing, let alone being forced victory after victory, resurrection after resurrection, despite every single attempt by the other factions.

I find it amusing that people want to eliminate the clan that had the most players represented in koteis in the last two years of the game.

SPIDER4LYFE

Well, ever asked WHY the Spider was the most representing clan in Koteis in the last years? Years that had a sharp drop in Kotei attendance in general? Years in which the story have been basically a non-stop drone about how awesome and amazing the Spider are and how soft Daigotsu's hair is?

Because everybody else was leaving the game in droves.

And now the game died and was sold to another company.

Funny how that is.

This is one aspect of L5R that isn't so cool. We're all fans of the world, and we all have our clans and factions that we love. There is absolutely no reason to take a dump on what other people like, and this sort of dismissal of a major faction (as others have said, Shadowlands/Spider have been around since the beginning), is exactly that. Whatever FFG decides to include, this rhetoric is toxic to the community.

First, about the bolded part: no. the Shadowlands/Junzo's Army have been around since the beginning. The Spider came latter and was the brainchild of a Mary Sue character that makes the setting crappier just by existing, let alone being forced victory after victory, resurrection after resurrection, despite every single attempt by the other factions.

I find it amusing that people want to eliminate the clan that had the most players represented in koteis in the last two years of the game.

SPIDER4LYFE

Well, ever asked WHY the Spider was the most representing clan in Koteis in the last years? Years that had a sharp drop in Kotei attendance in general? Years in which the story have been basically a non-stop drone about how awesome and amazing the Spider are and how soft Daigotsu's hair is?

Because everybody else was leaving the game in droves.

And now the game died and was sold to another company.

Funny how that is.

i'd challenge you to produce proof that the story was focused on how amazing spider were to the detriment of anyone else. because my recollection is quite the opposite. the years Sparks is referring to, and that you are referring to, during which Kotei attendence dropped, a) Daigotsu was off stage (to pacify sour grapes like yourself, but we'll get to that) and b) the spider were routinely given less fiction than the other clans and when we did get it, it was crappy. we had a few good pieces, thanks to Spooky and a few others, but very little of it was "how awesome is the spider". most of it was "the spider killed stuff in the jungles. go spider". or "look at Kanpeki brood. brood kanpeki brood". But please, convince me otherwise.

as for your oh so tired Mary Sue Daigotsu argument: Daigotsu's presence turned the shadowlands for a bland, generic monster factory into a real, textured, threat that produced the best fictions in L5R's history. Putting a human face, masked as it was, on the motivations of the shadowlands, was a net gain. The writers' greatest sin with daigotsu was that he was SUCH a good character, and so effective at what he did in lifting up the story, that they couldn't bear to get rid of him. they didn't do it because he was a bad character. they did it because he was the total opposite. he was removed in Gp4 because he had outlived his time, and because a voluble fraction of the fans wouldn't shut up about him.

Daigotsu wasn't the problem. Spider wasn't the reason Kotei's lost attendance. The problem was the game was sick. Spider attendance was high because we're masochists who are used to playing when things are bad.

This is one aspect of L5R that isn't so cool. We're all fans of the world, and we all have our clans and factions that we love. There is absolutely no reason to take a dump on what other people like, and this sort of dismissal of a major faction (as others have said, Shadowlands/Spider have been around since the beginning), is exactly that. Whatever FFG decides to include, this rhetoric is toxic to the community.

First, about the bolded part: no. the Shadowlands/Junzo's Army have been around since the beginning. The Spider came latter and was the brainchild of a Mary Sue character that makes the setting crappier just by existing, let alone being forced victory after victory, resurrection after resurrection, despite every single attempt by the other factions.

I find it amusing that people want to eliminate the clan that had the most players represented in koteis in the last two years of the game.

SPIDER4LYFE

Well, ever asked WHY the Spider was the most representing clan in Koteis in the last years? Years that had a sharp drop in Kotei attendance in general? Years in which the story have been basically a non-stop drone about how awesome and amazing the Spider are and how soft Daigotsu's hair is?

Because everybody else was leaving the game in droves.

And now the game died and was sold to another company.

Funny how that is.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAAAHAAHAHHAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!

Everything you said was funny. I seriously can't stop laughing at you.

a Mary Sue character that makes the setting crappier just by existing

You gotta admit, Mary Sue characters who make the setting crappier just by existing are staple parts of the L5R storytelling ever since the very beginning. So for one, Daigotsu is cool this way, and definitely better-off than Hida "I razed the Empire to the ground at the head of a Shadowlands army and they turned me into the fortune of perseverance" Kisada.

a Mary Sue character that makes the setting crappier just by existing

You gotta admit, Mary Sue characters who make the setting crappier just by existing are staple parts of the L5R storytelling ever since the very beginning. So for one, Daigotsu is cool this way, and definitely better-off than Hida "I razed the Empire to the ground at the head of a Shadowlands army and they turned me into the fortune of perseverance" Kisada.

Seems we're back around to the "major events that have no consistency with the setting out logical follow-up" thing?

I'm not saying your wrong, by the way (you're certainly very, very correct). Can we also apply moto chagatai to this list?

Cant we switch to characters we loved? For me uji and saori. Unfortunately my innate love of the harriers is highly unlikely to get any ff love as the crane will likely be honor duelists..