I don't believe I was being aggressive at all. You stated that you don't think the spider should have ever been a great clan even tho many spider players disagree with you. I don't think many spider players disagree with that statement so I'm not sure where you're getting your info from. Most spider players I know didn't like the fact we were shoehorned in to being a great clan, but we did it, because it was really the 'only' option.

Guys, english is not my mother tongue, but I know how to read, so let me give you a piece of advice : stop be dumb and learn to read. I wrote "That's a personal view that I'm ok if many Spider players don't share it." ! That actually does not mean many Spider players do not share it. That means I am okay if many Spider players don't share it. Like in 'I am okay if I become a millionnaire'. Does that mean that I am a millionnaire or that I think I am a millionnaire ? No Brian, absolutely not. Or 'That's a personal view that I'm ok if Barack Obama doesn't share it'. Does that mean that Barack Obama does not share it ? No Brian, absolutely not. So stop skip classes when you're at school, learn to read, then a whole world of OH AH big discoveries open in front of your eyes by using IF. *upset*

For the rest, it's already been discussed. We were starting to enter a far better discussion before you guys jumped on this train again.

These immature kids. You don't want to stereotype the Spider players but they just do it for you.

It's worth pointing out that part of the failure of the Destroyer War was the utter absence of the Destroyer Horde from the CCG.

Having the antagonists as a playable faction* is actually a GOOD thing, because it allows you to replicate that story in some fashion in actual gameplay.

* Or at least having them show up as personalities!

I'd rather not have the main antagonist as a playable faction in a storyline-driven game. I don't want the possibility of the bad guys "winning" the story. What I would much rather see is the villain corrupting a good guy to make his victory come with a steep price.

I know it's a personal preference, but I do think it would make for a more interesting story.

Sure, it would be a terrible blow to the Spider players to lose their faction, but it's happened with the Naga, the Monks, the Ninja (who later came back as part of the Spider), and it'll probably happen to the Mantis a second time as well.

It is always sad to lose a playable faction, but if it is for the good of the game, then I'm fine with it.

I'd rather not have the main antagonist as a playable faction in a storyline-driven game. I don't want the possibility of the bad guys "winning" the story. What I would much rather see is the villain corrupting a good guy to make his victory come with a steep price.

But if mechanically you never face the "enemy" the characters in your deck are theoretically concerned with taking down, it creates a really nasty disconnect-once again, see the Destroyer War and its basic failure to engage.

During the Khan's March, would you have wanted the Unicorn to be unplayable?

But if mechanically you never face the "enemy" the characters in your deck are theoretically concerned with taking down, it creates a really nasty disconnect-once again, see the Destroyer War and its basic failure to engage.

During the Khan's March, would you have wanted the Unicorn to be unplayable?

That's why I mentioned the "Main" antagonist. In the case of L5R, this was Jigoku and Fu Leng. If you have a villain that is only there for the span of one arc, that's not a staying power.

Kali-ma is one such example. Chagatai was another. In both case, had they prevail, the face of the Empire would have changed forever. The next arc would probably not have been about the Empire going back to the fight to defeat them, but rather about another threat to face.

It's worth pointing out that part of the failure of the Destroyer War was the utter absence of the Destroyer Horde from the CCG.

Having the antagonists as a playable faction* is actually a GOOD thing, because it allows you to replicate that story in some fashion in actual gameplay.

* Or at least having them show up as personalities!

I'd rather not have the main antagonist as a playable faction in a storyline-driven game. I don't want the possibility of the bad guys "winning" the story. What I would much rather see is the villain corrupting a good guy to make his victory come with a steep price.

I know it's a personal preference, but I do think it would make for a more interesting story.

Sure, it would be a terrible blow to the Spider players to lose their faction, but it's happened with the Naga, the Monks, the Ninja (who later came back as part of the Spider), and it'll probably happen to the Mantis a second time as well.

It is always sad to lose a playable faction, but if it is for the good of the game, then I'm fine with it.

I very much agree with that sentiment. I just can't help thinking having a playable evil faction is incredibly awkward for planning story rewards. I mean Sezaru being driven mad by his oni advisor was amusing, but other than that...

For example, what were they going to do if the Horde won the Four Winds Era? Have Daigotsu become the new Emperor? That's ridiculous.

You could argue the Spider becoming a Great Clan was also ridiculous. But given that it came on the heels of an exhausting war, was signed off on by a divinely appointed Empress, and that some Clans were already in bed with the Spider I think it's easier to buy even if it's still a hard sell.

That being said I think AEG did a horrible job of selling the Spider as a Great Clan. The entire post-Destroyer War setting was full of major changes that didn't get enough attention to be acceptable.

@Shiba Gunichi In regards to the Destroyer War I wasn't playing for most of it so I can't speak from personal experience. However if the story didn't engage you it didn't engage you. I don't really see how being able to play as the Horde in the card game would have helped.

Having the antagonists as a playable faction* is actually a GOOD thing, because it allows you to replicate that story in some fashion in actual gameplay.

It allows it, but it's an unusual case.

Game and story in this regard have pretty much always been a bit of a mismatch. In many arcs, including the original arc, some form of the Shadowlands is an ultimate evil. The clans ultimately have to come to some kind of understanding to defeat it (or some other central evil in specific arcs). In many games, said evil never even appears at the table.

The answer isn't to introduce said evil as a playable faction that may or may not show up in a given game, because most games, it won't. You could make it a 2 faction game (empire vs. shadowlands, with sub-factions, a la Corps and Runners or Light/Dark in Netrunner and Star Wars), but I don't think many want that. Co-op could be cool, with each clan teaming up to fight an encounter deck a la LotR, or a many players vs 1 overpowered shadowlands deck, but neither option is really well-suited to competitive play.

Instead, I'd prefer they alter the focus of the storyline to more closely match the actual game, as played. Assuming it will still be primarily focused on conflict between the clans, that means making the story about the great clans and their struggles, without leaning on an external, overwhelming antagonist.

If spider is one of those clans, great. And shadowlands should absolutely still be around as a corrupting influence on the clans, who can trade honor for power. But the horde (or whatever) and the way it dominated the storyline has always been an odd fit for the game as it played out on the table.

Servicing a central, powerful antagonist in the story just makes interclan conflict seem petty and foolish, and well, most games are interclan conflict. Which makes most games seem petty and foolish. Not really ideal.

I have nothing against the idea of having an antagonist faction. However, the players playing that faction shall be aware that the faction is destined to cease to exist at some point. However, this faction shall not have a "Great Clan status", because that wouldn't make any sense.

Why I have nothing against that idea? Simply because fighting an antagonist driven by only fighting other Great Clans seems very odd... Also, that antagonist doesn't have to always be the most evil thing on Rokugan. I feel like at some point, there should have something as simple as a peasant revolt, backed with monks. Or a group of ronins in desire to create their own Empire, starting to control some lands. If FFG also have the rights on Burning Sand (which I hope they have or the gaijin will be missing) an invasion from the gaijin, trying to conquer more lands. It doesn't have to always be linked to Rokugan at some point.

I'm not afraid of the "problem" of the winning scenario of the antagonist, because at some point, that faction will lose. Also, if the game is very well balanced, 1 faction VS all the Great Clans, the antagonist faction shall not officially win. That's if and only if the game is very well balanced, which is very hard to achieve. In order to win, that faction have to win most of the tournaments, which may be hard. If it happened, in my opinion, all that should do is, don't close that arc yet, let that faction winning the first battle, but the war isn't over yet. It will just have some drawback.

For example, I'll use the idea of the ronins with the desire to create their own Empire. If they win, they shall take lands from the faction that lost the most. Then, the story continues with another antagonist, that one is solved, and with that momentum, the Emperor wants his lands back, which reopen the conflit with the new Empire. This time, the "ronin Empire" lost, the winning faction take the land of that Empire, which means that if it's not the losing faction of the first conflit, they gain a larger territory, which they can choose to give back to the old owner or keep it to extend their lands, leading to more interclan conflits.

Of course, all this is only my opinion...

For the rest, it's already been discussed. We were starting to enter a far better discussion before you guys jumped on this train again.

Oh it seemed like you were discussing the same old tiring 'I hate the spider and they shouldn't be playable discussion' again. Is that what you consider 'better discussion'?

Anyway... I asked people to give me reasons why they don't think the spider should be a playable faction and while I may disagree with what they said, they still provided me with things to think about. And I'm glad I got feedback from it.

I think Shineyorkboy has it pretty well nailed down as to why spider shouldn't be playable. L5R has always been a story driven game and even much more than that, a player interactive story driven game. The story rewards have always felt awkward when dealing with the spider and I agree that they should have been better. However, I'm with Gunichi on this one. Having the bad guys be a playable faction helps everyone connect with the characters of that faction a LOT better than if they weren't. The destroyers were a good example of nobody really caring about the bad guys of the game. And I think the main reason for that is because they weren't playable. Now if the destroyers were a playable faction, they had a chance to win the arc. I get that, but it wouldn't mean the game is bad because of it. If the destroyers were playable and they won, then that would open up great possibilities of storytelling, imo. Because what you get next is a setting in which there is very little hope and it makes it that much more awesome when the clans finally do take back the empire. But because the destroyers weren't a playable faction, everyone already knew the end of the story... and it was the same boring story we've always had. The empire wins... bring on the next baddie. That, to me, is really blah and I would love to have way more depth in the story than that. If the bad guys win, it also gives a chance for the RPGers to play the game in a baddie ruled society and play characters trying to survive in that hardship. It isn't the same setting as it always is. I like changes as long as they are appealing and done well.

This was part of the problem with the game overall. You want to have plot and decisions to make that drive player interest. But you can't let those decisions ACTUALLY change anything because now your setting stats to dramatically shifty and change over time.

I mean it's doable (I believe so, at least) but not if you want to drive super heavy faction investment. Because if you do things the way AEG did them you can't Rock the boat to much or else players start to jump ship

As much as i adore Goddess Part 4 for the mythological battles and the theological shenanigans that followed, i would really love for someone to come up with an argument that the Destroyer War

or the arcs that followed it were good for l5r, storyline wise, and i agree that i think a lot of that had to do with how they handled antagonists. If you look back at the history of the game, in large part the story of the game has been defined by who the empire was fighting. The destroyer war introduced a villain that wasn't compelling particularly, came out of left field mythologically speaking, and alienated the players of the villain faction. following that, there was essentially no villains. just a lot of vague threats, a rotating cast of problems, and then the spider.

i'm on the record for thinking there are compelling stories to tell for the spider as a great clan, but i don't think they can be told properly with the fence up your rear, which is where we were right up until the end. all in or all out both worked, but trying to have our cannibal cake and eat it too just never worked. on top of antagonizing other clans, it made for dissatisfied spider players and a lot of conflict within the clan.

I don't believe I was being aggressive at all. You stated that you don't think the spider should have ever been a great clan even tho many spider players disagree with you. I don't think many spider players disagree with that statement so I'm not sure where you're getting your info from. Most spider players I know didn't like the fact we were shoehorned in to being a great clan, but we did it, because it was really the 'only' option.

Guys, english is not my mother tongue, but I know how to read, so let me give you a piece of advice : stop be dumb and learn to read. I wrote "That's a personal view that I'm ok if many Spider players don't share it." ! That actually does not mean many Spider players do not share it. That means I am okay if many Spider players don't share it. Like in 'I am okay if I become a millionnaire'. Does that mean that I am a millionnaire or that I think I am a millionnaire ? No Brian, absolutely not. Or 'That's a personal view that I'm ok if Barack Obama doesn't share it'. Does that mean that Barack Obama does not share it ? No Brian, absolutely not. So stop skip classes when you're at school, learn to read, then a whole world of OH AH big discoveries open in front of your eyes by using IF. *upset*

For the rest, it's already been discussed. We were starting to enter a far better discussion before you guys jumped on this train again.

These immature kids. You don't want to stereotype the Spider players but they just do it for you.

the fact that you are okay with us disagreeing with you doesn't mean you aren't wrong, or that you aren't insulting the largest part of the l5r fanbase, or that you are somehow immune from being called on your nonsense when you spout it. you are welcome to express your poorly worded opinions as often as you like, and even deliver poorly worded insults, but that doesn't absolve you of having to face criticism for your opinions. where are bad. and you should feel bad for having them.

Oh it seemed like you were discussing the same old tiring 'I hate the spider and they shouldn't be playable discussion' again. Is that what you consider 'better discussion'?

I never said I hate the Spider. Again, stop twisting what people say or think and learn to read. And yes, we were moving the discussion forward.

I've mastered quite a few campaigns, and what I liked doing in these campaign is to trick the players into thinking the Spider NPCs they encounter are the bad guys. Actually, some of them are bad, others are just not that bad but what life made of them, but eventhough they are the Spider, they are not the bad guys they were looking for. The Spider is so much more than just 'bad guys'.

But, for me, the Spider still should never be a Great Clan at all. That's a personal view that I'm ok if many Spider players don't share it. The Spider is good for me as a very secret group acting in the Empire from its borders. As a Great Clan, I find it both to be not fit for my Rokugan, and not to be as interesting and as effective story-wise than the Spider as a secret entity.

See ? Read it correctly maybe ?

These are two totally and completely different things you are wanting here as Cielago pointed out.

Yes, the fact I wish the Spider was not a Great Clan and that it's also not a playable faction are two things. Saying they are totally and completely different is not true though, because it's linked. A Great Clan Spider being not a playable faction ? Senseless, that would never happen, it would be the only Great Clan not to be playable. A not-Great Clan Spider being a playable faction ? It's possible of course, but that would be the only not-a-Great-Clan playable faction... so it's not really in line with the other factions on the matter. So to link the Great Clan status to the playable faction status, is not irrelevant or stupid.

the fact that you are okay with us disagreeing with you doesn't mean you aren't wrong, or that you aren't insulting the largest part of the l5r fanbase, or that you are somehow immune from being called on your nonsense when you spout it. you are welcome to express your poorly worded opinions as often as you like, and even deliver poorly worded insults, but that doesn't absolve you of having to face criticism for your opinions. where are bad. and you should feel bad for having them.

But man, I am also okay with being wrong (when I actually can be wrong). We can all be wrong, that's called life. But you pretending again that, the people that think the Spider has nothing to do as a Clan and also as a playable faction, are insulting all the Spider players with their opinion, is ridiculous. Call whatever you like non-sense if you want, but stop pretending you are the only one able to judge what people should think or not about the Spider. Of course I can be wrong, but I can't be wrong with a genuine personal opinion because... it's a personal opinion, so you can't refute it. You can not agree with it, but you can't say it's wrong. It's called respecting others' point of view, welcome to the whole world of debating.

- Katsutoshi, I hate your opinion, I hate you for stating that you don't want the Spider to be a Great Clan -> Ok, cielago, that's your opinion. We disagree but it's okay.

- Katsutoshi, you can't think such a thing that the Spider can't be a Great Clan, you're insulting our whole group by stating so, you're just wrong -> Well hi cielago, I can think so, and I am thinking so. You missed your vocation as a censor for a dictatorship, but I am sure North Korea would be glad to welcome you.

See the difference ? Now can we move on ? Thanks.

What allure does L5R have?

Multiple win conditions.

Characters have names.

Plays like a miniature game but with cards.

Two decks to build.

and THE LORE!

I think Shineyorkboy has it pretty well nailed down as to why spider shouldn't be playable. L5R has always been a story driven game and even much more than that, a player interactive story driven game. The story rewards have always felt awkward when dealing with the spider and I agree that they should have been better. However, I'm with Gunichi on this one. Having the bad guys be a playable faction helps everyone connect with the characters of that faction a LOT better than if they weren't. The destroyers were a good example of nobody really caring about the bad guys of the game. And I think the main reason for that is because they weren't playable. Now if the destroyers were a playable faction, they had a chance to win the arc. I get that, but it wouldn't mean the game is bad because of it. If the destroyers were playable and they won, then that would open up great possibilities of storytelling, imo. Because what you get next is a setting in which there is very little hope and it makes it that much more awesome when the clans finally do take back the empire. But because the destroyers weren't a playable faction, everyone already knew the end of the story... and it was the same boring story we've always had. The empire wins... bring on the next baddie. That, to me, is really blah and I would love to have way more depth in the story than that. If the bad guys win, it also gives a chance for the RPGers to play the game in a baddie ruled society and play characters trying to survive in that hardship. It isn't the same setting as it always is. I like changes as long as they are appealing and done well.

Just to be clear my comments were more directed at the Shadowland Horde era of the game where the forces of Jigoku were mindless aggressors bent on the destruction and/or subjugation of the Realm of Mortals. I suppose they can also apply to the Spider Clan during the Race for the Throne when they were working to infiltrate and undermine the Empire's stability though I wasn't really thinking of that when I wrote them.

While making the Spider a Great Clan is not a narrative decision I would have made and I was originally as hostile to the idea as any proper Crab, recently I've found myself more willing to live with it. However, as has been said, if the Spider want to be tolerated as part of the Empire they need to start acting like it.

At minimum there needs to be an end to overt Tainting, the use of the undead, and I'd like to see an end to Daigotsu worship but I could settle for it being limited to as a revered ancestor and not in his role as the Lord of Jigoku. And if you want to say those are essential elements of the Clan I'd be okay with them being employed in secret provided there's the understanding that there'd be political repercussions if the rest of the Empire found out. Kind of like the Crane and the Harriers only more so.

As much as i adore Goddess Part 4 for the mythological battles and the theological shenanigans that followed, i would really love for someone to come up with an argument that the Destroyer War

or the arcs that followed it were good for l5r, storyline wise, and i agree that i think a lot of that had to do with how they handled antagonists. If you look back at the history of the game, in large part the story of the game has been defined by who the empire was fighting. The destroyer war introduced a villain that wasn't compelling particularly, came out of left field mythologically speaking, and alienated the players of the villain faction. following that, there was essentially no villains. just a lot of vague threats, a rotating cast of problems, and then the spider.

i'm on the record for thinking there are compelling stories to tell for the spider as a great clan, but i don't think they can be told properly with the fence up your rear, which is where we were right up until the end. all in or all out both worked, but trying to have our cannibal cake and eat it too just never worked. on top of antagonizing other clans, it made for dissatisfied spider players and a lot of conflict within the clan.

I could argue pretty easily that the Destroyer War-plus era provided advantages to storytelling. The War itself mostly serves the narrative by being such a grinding conflict that you can accept the Empire being willing to accept as controversial a decision as the Spider becoming a Great Clan. As you said the Spider provide a great deal of story potential, I think the most obvious being to explore themes similar to those surrounding the US and Soviet efforts to recruit German rocket scientists in the wake of WWII.

The time skip gives you the classic 'warrior society enters extended period of peace thus making them eager for any excuse for renewed conflict' setting. Combined with the Colonies it also gives you the potential for a generation of samurai that have never set foot in the Empire proper and all the interesting possibilities that entails.

The Colonies themselves give you a chance to explore a lot of the themes surrounding the Meji Restoration. You have an influx of new wealth, a questioning of traditional cultural values, and the civil unrest both of those bring.

Now that's just a list addressing the possibilities that most readily came to me, but even that shows there's a great deal of potential available. However, I don't think the story we got took advantage of most of that potential and what they did use wasn't executed very well. The notable exception being the 'extended peace' element, but that was easily the most generic of the ones I listed.

I agree that recent years have been bereft of quality villains. Despite being around for as long as he was the Dark Naga accomplished pretty much nothing. P'an Ku wasn't revealed as the big bad of his arc until it was almost time for him to be defeated. (Although I do kind of love him after his face turn.) But the ringleader of them all was the Crystal Wind who came from nothing, went nowhere, and will probably have no impact on the ongoing setting other than some increased narrative presence for the Nezumi.

Probably the most effective antagonist introduced since the Destroyer War is Suikihime since she's been very visible in the story and she's a malicious authority figure in the same vein as Jimen.

Oh it seemed like you were discussing the same old tiring 'I hate the spider and they shouldn't be playable discussion' again. Is that what you consider 'better discussion'?

I never said I hate the Spider. Again, stop twisting what people say or think and learn to read. And yes, we were moving the discussion forward.

I've mastered quite a few campaigns, and what I liked doing in these campaign is to trick the players into thinking the Spider NPCs they encounter are the bad guys. Actually, some of them are bad, others are just not that bad but what life made of them, but eventhough they are the Spider, they are not the bad guys they were looking for. The Spider is so much more than just 'bad guys'.

But, for me, the Spider still should never be a Great Clan at all. That's a personal view that I'm ok if many Spider players don't share it. The Spider is good for me as a very secret group acting in the Empire from its borders. As a Great Clan, I find it both to be not fit for my Rokugan, and not to be as interesting and as effective story-wise than the Spider as a secret entity.

See ? Read it correctly maybe ?

These are two totally and completely different things you are wanting here as Cielago pointed out.

Yes, the fact I wish the Spider was not a Great Clan and that it's also not a playable faction are two things. Saying they are totally and completely different is not true though, because it's linked. A Great Clan Spider being not a playable faction ? Senseless, that would never happen, it would be the only Great Clan not to be playable. A not-Great Clan Spider being a playable faction ? It's possible of course, but that would be the only not-a-Great-Clan playable faction... so it's not really in line with the other factions on the matter. So to link the Great Clan status to the playable faction status, is not irrelevant or stupid.

the fact that you are okay with us disagreeing with you doesn't mean you aren't wrong, or that you aren't insulting the largest part of the l5r fanbase, or that you are somehow immune from being called on your nonsense when you spout it. you are welcome to express your poorly worded opinions as often as you like, and even deliver poorly worded insults, but that doesn't absolve you of having to face criticism for your opinions. where are bad. and you should feel bad for having them.

But man, I am also okay with being wrong (when I actually can be wrong). We can all be wrong, that's called life. But you pretending again that, the people that think the Spider has nothing to do as a Clan and also as a playable faction, are insulting all the Spider players with their opinion, is ridiculous. Call whatever you like non-sense if you want, but stop pretending you are the only one able to judge what people should think or not about the Spider. Of course I can be wrong, but I can't be wrong with a genuine personal opinion because... it's a personal opinion, so you can't refute it. You can not agree with it, but you can't say it's wrong. It's called respecting others' point of view, welcome to the whole world of debating.

- Katsutoshi, I hate your opinion, I hate you for stating that you don't want the Spider to be a Great Clan -> Ok, cielago, that's your opinion. We disagree but it's okay.

- Katsutoshi, you can't think such a thing that the Spider can't be a Great Clan, you're insulting our whole group by stating so, you're just wrong -> Well hi cielago, I can think so, and I am thinking so. You missed your vocation as a censor for a dictatorship, but I am sure North Korea would be glad to welcome you.

See the difference ? Now can we move on ? Thanks.

****... you really are a whack job aren't ya?

You don't have to directly say you hate the spider for anyone reading your posts to know that you hate the spider. There is no word twisting goin on at all. That's pretty much how you feel. I don't really care that you hate the spider, tbh. But it's still the same tired opinion you have. 'Whhaaaaa... the spider don't fit to what I like so I'm gonna put em down every chance I get'. Sounds like a baby needing nap time.

Your whole 'opinion' on making the spider not playable because they don't fit the setting as a great clan is just ludicrous. I agree that the spider don't fit the setting as a great clan... but you know what??? The spider were a playable faction LONG before they were a great clan. And you know what else?? It did a lot of great things for the game when the spider clan came out as a playable faction.

Your entire arguments are only geared towards you not liking the spider as a great clan. The only things you state are that they don't fit as a great clan. Everything that you type is saying that they don't belong as a great clan. We get it!!! The spider don't belong as a great clan, man! I totally get it. I actually agree with you on this!! But then you state because the spider don't fit the setting as a great clan, they shouldn't be a playable faction. I can't even wrap my head around your reasoning on this. You make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I don't even know why I bother with you anymore. You have zero reasoning skills.

I think Shineyorkboy has it pretty well nailed down as to why spider shouldn't be playable. L5R has always been a story driven game and even much more than that, a player interactive story driven game. The story rewards have always felt awkward when dealing with the spider and I agree that they should have been better. However, I'm with Gunichi on this one. Having the bad guys be a playable faction helps everyone connect with the characters of that faction a LOT better than if they weren't. The destroyers were a good example of nobody really caring about the bad guys of the game. And I think the main reason for that is because they weren't playable. Now if the destroyers were a playable faction, they had a chance to win the arc. I get that, but it wouldn't mean the game is bad because of it. If the destroyers were playable and they won, then that would open up great possibilities of storytelling, imo. Because what you get next is a setting in which there is very little hope and it makes it that much more awesome when the clans finally do take back the empire. But because the destroyers weren't a playable faction, everyone already knew the end of the story... and it was the same boring story we've always had. The empire wins... bring on the next baddie. That, to me, is really blah and I would love to have way more depth in the story than that. If the bad guys win, it also gives a chance for the RPGers to play the game in a baddie ruled society and play characters trying to survive in that hardship. It isn't the same setting as it always is. I like changes as long as they are appealing and done well.

Just to be clear my comments were more directed at the Shadowland Horde era of the game where the forces of Jigoku were mindless aggressors bent on the destruction and/or subjugation of the Realm of Mortals. I suppose they can also apply to the Spider Clan during the Race for the Throne when they were working to infiltrate and undermine the Empire's stability though I wasn't really thinking of that when I wrote them.

While making the Spider a Great Clan is not a narrative decision I would have made and I was originally as hostile to the idea as any proper Crab, recently I've found myself more willing to live with it. However, as has been said, if the Spider want to be tolerated as part of the Empire they need to start acting like it.

At minimum there needs to be an end to overt Tainting, the use of the undead, and I'd like to see an end to Daigotsu worship but I could settle for it being limited to as a revered ancestor and not in his role as the Lord of Jigoku. And if you want to say those are essential elements of the Clan I'd be okay with them being employed in secret provided there's the understanding that there'd be political repercussions if the rest of the Empire found out. Kind of like the Crane and the Harriers only more so.

I think it can go for both faction types. I agree that the story rewards were weird in regards to both Shadowlands and Spider. They should have come up with better things, but I also know that the position in even offering different things to just one faction is a little awkward. So in that, I do see how having the spider as a playable faction is awkward because of this. I also believe that this can be fixed easily enough, though.

The spider becoming a great clan wrecked a lot of stuff for sure. I like that you are at least willing to live with it based on some certain criteria, but I believe this is where our opinions separate. You said they can be believable as a great clan if x,y, and z happens, but I'm of the opinion that if x,y, and, z happens, they cease to be the spider clan. This is really what bothers me about the spider becoming a great clan in the first place. You can't take x,y, and z away from the spider and expect the spider players to like it. And you can't really leave x,y, and z in the spider for everyone to believe the spider fit in the setting as a great clan. So the solution... take the great clan status away from the spider. The spider never should have been a great clan, imo. But like I said earlier in my posts, this wasn't a choice the players had. It was a no win choice for the spider players. And that is where AEG dropped the ball. So we were forced in to making the leap to great clanship. And as soon as that happened, everyone (like you, shineyorkboy) was saying that the spider shouldn't have x,y, and z. And that's where most of the arguments came from. And I believe that's why many players hate on the spider as much as they do. But you have to realize, the spider players really had no control over what happened. Most spider players want to play bad guys and the only way to do so was to play in to the choices presented to us. The whole thing was dumb, imo. The spider should have never been made in to a great clan. Even story related, I can't see how they thought this was a good idea in the long term. There were a lot of ways for the spider to manipulate the empire without being a great clan, but for some reason, AEG decided that being a great clan was the way for spider. No spider player wants x,y, and z taken away from them... those are the things in which people wanted to play spider in the first place.

@shineyorkboy

Totally agree with you on Otomo Suikihime. Fun character, and my fav during the Emperor and Ivory stories.

Again, bring up the Spider Clan, and watch the battle lines get drawn in this community. And for, honestly, good reasons. Some of us have invested decades into helping craft this world, and it is good to see the passion stay out there in this season of silence.

I have posted several times about "Why" the Spider Clan exists, providing both the in game reasons and the out of game reasons, along with a discussion of the difficulties faced by AEG about writing them into the story effectively. Does the Spider Clan work better as a disparate group of infiltrators? A monolithic evil? The human face worn by a horde of demons? The human followers of a dark god who was cast out of Heaven, but deserve a place in the Empire regardless? The Spider Clan is a contentious issue because the story of L5R is ultimately a product of American fantasy literature, appropriating heavily from Japan and less so from China, and they are an extreme challenge in that style of storytelling. The writers and players of L5R all have different ideas on if, how, and why the Spider Clan exists, how they function, and what purpose they serve.

Which is all irrelevant to me, ultimately.

For me, the Spider Clan is a community of players like Sparks, Buttlord, Cielago, Zarasu, and dozens of others who welcomed me into their group with enthusiasm. What made me a Spider Clan player has nothing to do with the world of L5R, and everything to do with the players surrounding it. I honestly had not felt that welcome in a faction since the Naga got axed before Gold Edition. And this is why I am a Spider Clan player, and not a Horde (Shadowlands, Junzo, Kali-ma, take your choice) player. It is an acknowledgement of where I came to the faction in the timeline, and what elements in the CCG faction I personally enjoyed (Shourido, the Last Hantei, Daigotsu Susumu and his family).

Love 'em or hate 'em, the Spider Clan shaped L5R. And even if you think they should not be a Great Clan or a playable faction, they are a part of what makes L5R great. Just as everything else we've talked about here is.

You don't have to directly say you hate the spider for anyone reading your posts to know that you hate the spider. There is no word twisting goin on at all. That's pretty much how you feel. I don't really care that you hate the spider, tbh. But it's still the same tired opinion you have. 'Whhaaaaa... the spider don't fit to what I like so I'm gonna put em down every chance I get'. Sounds like a baby needing nap time.

That's even better than censorship (and way more efficient when you need your point to be proven) : you tell the other one what he thinks and how he feels. You're amazing (in the wrong way).

So, no thank you, I don't hate the Spider.

And this discussion wouldn't have last that long if you stopped being jerks in your answers, saying what people should think or not, twisting words and thoughts, agressively pointing fingers at other players that are part of this community, and so on. As I already said, I'm always up to defending what's right as long as is needed. I'm open to giving apologies to all the others players that are trying to have an interesting discussion here, but guess what ? you're not part of them.

Your whole 'opinion' on making the spider not playable because they don't fit the setting as a great clan is just ludicrous. I agree that the spider don't fit the setting as a great clan... but you know what??? The spider were a playable faction LONG before they were a great clan. And you know what else?? It did a lot of great things for the game when the spider clan came out as a playable faction.

In my setting. In my view of the setting. Or my view of the Spider in this setting. There are many ways to say it. But I've never said the Spider don't fit the setting, period. Because that is a fact, and I would have to back it up with other facts. Some other players here have said so, but I didn't. Did I already talked to you about how it is important to know how to read ?

The Spider was a playable faction long before it became a great clan, really ? How long is that compared to the life of this game ? Is it Naga-like long ? Nezumi-like long ? for example...

And you know what else?? It did a lot of great things for the game when the spider clan came out as a playable faction.

This is what you don't understand. I am happy for you. Not rhetorically or ironically. I am. Separate things. My opinion about the Spider, and my opinion about you or what you did or what you achieved are different things.

You want to know something more about me ? For a kotei in my country, I housed 3 foreign spider players in my home for 3 days (for free of course). And they were nice and fun, and I like them, as I like this community. So just learn to separate things, that's something very valuable in life (as it is to know how to really read what is written).

But then you state because the spider don't fit the setting as a great clan, they shouldn't be a playable faction. I can't even wrap my head around your reasoning on this. You make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I don't even know why I bother with you anymore. You have zero reasoning skills.

I never said that if they were not a Great Clan, and because they are not a Great Clan, then they shouldn't be a playable faction. I said the Great Clan status and the fact a faction is playable are obviously linked. Not that there is a straight correlation. Again, learn to read, very important skill.

Instead I said I think they should not be a Great Clan and they should not be a playable faction neither.

Now, you can taunt me on my english skill if you want, that would make me very sad because I wish I had more time to improve it, but it would be deserved. But for my reasoning skills... I feel pretty confident, thank you.

Shadowlands became playable in the VERY FIRST EDITION of l5r, only 7 months after naga, which became unplayable YEARS ago. Ratling was introduced two entire sets later, and was again removed YEARS ago. Shadowlands has been a part of l5r for the life of the game, longer even than mantis! and your ignorance on that subject further illustrates why we're scornful of your opinion.

your great clan is the only playable faction theory is one i've heard before. thats fine. but its not l5r, so if you want that, you just gotta be on board with wanting a game thats not reflective of the history of l5r. which is a perfectly valid opinion, but you can't pretend its in line with the history of the game.

furthermore, you can make a pretty compelling argument, as we were discussing a few posts above, that the lack of a non-clan villain element, as we saw in the last few editions, was really bad for the game. it deprived the game of a narrative element that had been really thematically defining and made the story pretty listless the last few years. for all people say they want samurai drama, the brothers conflict was HELLA unpopular.

I am not ignorant on the matter, thank you. But why are you talking about the Shadowlands when we are talking about the Spider ? And more specifically the non-Great Clan Spider.

I'm going to rephrase it because obviously you did not understand (which is a habit of yours), but maybe it's me. So what I asked is how long this period (the non-Great Clan Spider) last ? And I asked to compare it to the lifetime of this game, and to how long the Naga or the Nezumi lasted as playable factions. Is that clear enough for you ?

Last but not least, that's not my argument. I didn't talk about that. I'm questionning someone who did.

Edit : I do like your second post, it makes sense, it's an opinion, and it's respectful. See, I see ground for a good discussion here, I'm happy. I personally don't want (/wish, or feel the need for) a villain faction playable, because that's not how I see my ideal L5R cardgame. But it is nonetheless a good argument and I'm sure some people agree with you. I don't neither feel like it's been what drove the narrative element of this cardgame down to the point where I would say it's now bad. But well...

I'm going to rephrase it because obviously you did not understand (which is a habit of yours), but maybe it's me. So what I asked is how long this period (the non-Great Clan Spider) last ? And I asked to compare it to the lifetime of this game, and to how long the Naga or the Nezumi lasted as playable factions. Is that clear enough for you ?

What difference does that make at all?? It doesn't!! It makes zero difference how long the spider were a playable faction before they became a great clan. You know why?? Because the spider have the players. More players than ANY OTHER CLAN in the game. I bet that really explodes your brain!

But great job on back-peddling on your ideals. You'd make a great politician.

I am not ignorant on the matter, thank you. But why are you talking about the Shadowlands when we are talking about the Spider ? And more specifically the non-Great Clan Spider.

I'm going to rephrase it because obviously you did not understand (which is a habit of yours), but maybe it's me. So what I asked is how long this period (the non-Great Clan Spider) last ? And I asked to compare it to the lifetime of this game, and to how long the Naga or the Nezumi lasted as playable factions. Is that clear enough for you ?

Least but not last, that's not my argument. I didn't talk about that. I'm questionning someone who did.

spider has been a great clan, if you discount shadowlands, twice as long as naga existed and about two years longer than the ratlings. its existed for a litttle more than 1/3 the lifetime of the game. 8 of 20 years. but discounting the shadowlands portion is preposterous since your argument is "if not great clan, then shouldn't be playable", as well as "spider shouldn't be a great clan". you're splitting hairs.

look, your problem here is you obviously are new to this particular fight. you literally cannot outlast spider fans in the "your faction should not exist" fight. i could literally die, and someone else would step in and keep arguing with you. spider fans have spend the better part of the life of this game being told our faction is hot garbage and having to defend its existence and our right to like it. the fact that its just your "opinion, man" doesn't carry water with me, frankly. my opinion is you're wrong. and i'll keep saying so because i love this clan and i will defend it until my fingers fall off.

to be clear, i'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, or a right to say it here. but if you are gonna come in and trash my clan, you better bring the facts, bring a strong argument, and be ready to defend your position, cause i'm gonna fight you on every single point. you have a right to your opinion, but not a right to let it stand unchallenged.

Humm... guys? I don't mind reading opinion, in fact this is very interesting, however, you all start to fall into personal attacks. How about we take a step back, cool off and talk about another subject?