a Mary Sue character that makes the setting crappier just by existing

You gotta admit, Mary Sue characters who make the setting crappier just by existing are staple parts of the L5R storytelling ever since the very beginning. So for one, Daigotsu is cool this way, and definitely better-off than Hida "I razed the Empire to the ground at the head of a Shadowlands army and they turned me into the fortune of perseverance" Kisada.

Seems we're back around to the "major events that have no consistency with the setting out logical follow-up" thing?

Meh. It is just L5R Storytelling 101. You can't talk about anything in the canon without running into the usual circle of inconsistencies/Mary Sues/silly stuff/whatever that makes the setting "crappier". I mean, these things almost define L5R, and without them, the setting wouldn't be the same.

I'm not saying your wrong, by the way (you're certainly very, very correct). Can we also apply moto chagatai to this list?

Definitely.

Let's not forget Yoritomo and Toku if we're talking about people who got away with far more than the setting really indicates should be possible.

(And note that the Yoritomo/Day of Thunder bit is so thorny there are actually multiple versions in canon)

I love the Minor Clans, but the Monkey are the Maryest of Sues.

Or Bayushi Kachiko who managed to pull a Karma Houdini on account of being John Wick's actual dream woman, or Bayushi Yojiro, LITERALLY John Wick's self-insert character.

Daigotsu's first arc was solid, but it definitely degraded. However, blaming the slow death of the CCG on the existence of the Spider Clan? Wow. Just... wow.

Toku

This guy is kinda special because his biggest flaw is that he dared to use the most hilariously legitimate loophole of a system everyone thought to be perfect. They must gave him the better end of the stick because the other way (admitting that the Celestial Order is stupidly retarded) would have spelled interesting things to the setting.

a Mary Sue character that makes the setting crappier just by existing

You gotta admit, Mary Sue characters who make the setting crappier just by existing are staple parts of the L5R storytelling ever since the very beginning. So for one, Daigotsu is cool this way, and definitely better-off than Hida "I razed the Empire to the ground at the head of a Shadowlands army and they turned me into the fortune of perseverance" Kisada.

Hida Kisada is definitely the worse of them all. He had the potential to be the coolest villain of the setting, to be L5R's Darth Vader. That kind of story basically writes itself, it amazes me how AEG could drop the ball on him so hard.

On the topic of Mary Sues, let's not forget Hitomi. Ugh.

My suggestion for people new to L5R: get the RPG books, and stay as far away from the fictions as you can.

Personally, I would urge people to realize that L5R is written by over 20 authors, over 20 years, with input from thousands of people, with varying levels of influence, dictation, and brand management. Take it with a grain of salt. Not every story will be "Enlightened Madness" or "The Trade" (which is still my favorite L5R story of all time). But there are some genuine good ones.

Man, you know what L5R needs, now that this era of it is over? I would love to see a small team of L5R knowledgable writers and a _very_ patient editor take the large body of fiction and boil it all down into a coherent narrative. Combine fictions, fill in blanks to make series fit, commission new pieces to bridge things together. So that a person can sit down and read "L5R: A Brother's Destiny" or "L5R: Four Winds" and actually follow the narrative. I love the fictions, i do, but they aren't exactly approachable. There are often gaps and assumed knowledge about whats going on in the story and even if you read them at the time they can be confusing if not outright daunting. if the story were ongoing, this would be a waste of time, but with this era of the game more or less over, you could approach this block of fiction with some confidence that you won't ever have to worry about something changing and having to go back and fix it later.

Man, you know what L5R needs, now that this era of it is over? I would love to see a small team of L5R knowledgable writers and a _very_ patient editor take the large body of fiction and boil it all down into a coherent narrative. Combine fictions, fill in blanks to make series fit, commission new pieces to bridge things together. So that a person can sit down and read "L5R: A Brother's Destiny" or "L5R: Four Winds" and actually follow the narrative. I love the fictions, i do, but they aren't exactly approachable. There are often gaps and assumed knowledge about whats going on in the story and even if you read them at the time they can be confusing if not outright daunting. if the story were ongoing, this would be a waste of time, but with this era of the game more or less over, you could approach this block of fiction with some confidence that you won't ever have to worry about something changing and having to go back and fix it later.

Alternatively, one of us should bring a camera and mic set up to GenCon 2017, go to all the parties, and dedicate the weekend to recording "Drunk History - L5R", and then build a webseries based on the intoxicated ramblings of L5R fans and writers.

Alternatively, one of us should bring a camera and mic set up to GenCon 2017, go to all the parties, and dedicate the weekend to recording "Drunk History - L5R", and then build a webseries based on the intoxicated ramblings of L5R fans and writers.

Now that is how you do "interactive fiction."

Alternatively, one of us should bring a camera and mic set up to GenCon 2017, go to all the parties, and dedicate the weekend to recording "Drunk History - L5R", and then build a webseries based on the intoxicated ramblings of L5R fans and writers.

Now that is how you do "interactive fiction."

"An' THASSWHY Tadakawas th' best! *hork*"

Man, you know what L5R needs, now that this era of it is over? I would love to see a small team of L5R knowledgable writers and a _very_ patient editor take the large body of fiction and boil it all down into a coherent narrative. Combine fictions, fill in blanks to make series fit, commission new pieces to bridge things together. So that a person can sit down and read "L5R: A Brother's Destiny" or "L5R: Four Winds" and actually follow the narrative. I love the fictions, i do, but they aren't exactly approachable. There are often gaps and assumed knowledge about whats going on in the story and even if you read them at the time they can be confusing if not outright daunting. if the story were ongoing, this would be a waste of time, but with this era of the game more or less over, you could approach this block of fiction with some confidence that you won't ever have to worry about something changing and having to go back and fix it later.

I actually suggested something like this at one point when Readers first started getting popular and the game world first started putting out pdfs. I figured they could create an entirely new stream of revenue creating cohesive stories from sections of the fiction, but nothing ever came of it. Then, of course, the company was WAY behind the curve in putting products out in pdf format (they sort of missed most of the first OGL pdf boom), so I figured it was a waste of time trying to get actual novellas off the ground.

Greetings,

I just read all this post and felt like I had to say something, so I registered on the forum and here I am. I've got many things to say and I won't remember all of them because I just went through 18 pages of comments, mainly due to being bored in the course my company is making me taking, but also because I love L5R and the conversation was interesting. Please forgive me for anything that is not clear, English is not my native tongue.

Okay, first of all please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste. I've known L5R for long long years (almost 10 now), and it was one of the very first RPG I played. I instantly fell in love with the scorpion clan, although the picture in the first edition RPG was not very pretty. I've read every bit of information of the scorpion clan that I've found in different handbooks and soon I will have the clan mon tattooed on my arm. I'm a fanboy, I know it and I'm very proud of it. I have my own share of love for other clans (mainly Dragon, Phoenix and Crane), but the Scorpon will always be my first love. I never played the CCG, there is not much of a player base in Barcelona and I never had the money or the interest. All this changed when the Fire Nation attacked... I mean when FFG bought L5R. When I heard that we'll have 5th edition and the card game as a LCG I went banana. I love the work FFG is doing with other franchises, basically Star Wars (the one thing I'm more fanboy than L5R). The RPG's are simply great and I try to go to as many LCG tournaments as I can.

I'm very excited for the upcoming release of the 5th edition RPG and the card game as a LCG because I ******* love LCG's and I think FFG is doing a fantastic job. I wanted to comment some things that have been being said in this thread.

First of all, for me what makes L5R great is the rich setting and the clan affiliations. When I play with my friends we enjoy that we're not playing just another D&D game, there is honor, and loyalty and a very complex society that makes roleplaying different and fun. For example, one day we wondered "can shugenjas wear armor?" "is there any rule that makes spellcasting more difficult if you have armor, just like in D&D?". The answer we found pleased us all: Shugenjas don't wear armor because they are clergy, not warriors and since they are so scarce they are usually taken as prisoners instead of being killed. Wearing armor will make them a target, because they'll look like warriors. So no, shugenjas don't wear armor because that is not the thing they do in this society. So we found a roleplaying explanation for a mechanical question. I think that's just one example of what makes the setting so great. Clan affiliation of course adds a lot of fun and makes people really attached to the game. My girlfriend is a spider, one of my best friends is crane, another guy is lion... And we LOVE to discuss which is the best clan, although we know that is totally subjective (except that the Lion is the worst clan, we all agree on that except for the poor misguided Lion player).

I wanted to say something about all the spider clan fuss... But I will make it stage by stage, what I felt while reading the thread:

Stage 1: Pre-reading

OK, the spider clan is cool, but they do make little sense in the setting, for me what makes L5R special is the clan struggles and infighting, I like the courts, the wars between clans... I always hated the factions that were just a BIG threat and the very big bad guy to defeat (Fu Leng, Kali-Ma, the Kolat as a whole...).

It does not help either that they stand in the way of the scorpion as the villain of Rokugan. Come on, I have a job, I dont want Shadowland immigrants to come here and take our jobs, maybe someone is right and we just should build a wall and make them pay for it... oh wait.

Stage 2: First 10 pages

Well, the spider players are making great points defending their clan, but so are the other players questioning the place of the spider clan... After all, every great clan has to bring something to the table. But of course we shouldn't take the clan from the players because they deserve to have their faction and have fun, I don't know how I'd feel if FFG or anybody took away the scorpion clan from me....

Stage 3: After reading all

WAIT WAIT WAIT DID AEG REALLY DO THAT TO THE SPIDER PLAYERS? THEY JUST GAVE THEM NO CHOICE? FROM NOW ON I WILL DEFEND MY FELLOW ARACHNIDS FROM EVERYONE, THEY HAVE BEEN WRONGED AND DESERVE SWEET SCORPION VENGEANCE, ARACHNIDS HAVE TO STAND WITH EACH OTHER AND DEFEAT AEG AND THE KOLAT TOGETHER.

It was indeed a wild ride.

It was also a very fun thread to read and I love how everyone defends their clans, discusses the plot and almost everyone is polite and reads each other. I learned many things and I'd love to learn many more in the future, specially when I start playing the LCG (and I really hope they maintain all the player choices thing, but I hope that the choices are real, don't worry spider friends, I'll make sure that you can choose your own path).

I'm repeating myself, but it's difficult not to write in your mother's tongue, but I got really excited with FFG buying L5R. I got so hyped I'm even thinking of going to Indy Con and meet players from around the world and I am sure I'd have a great time. Reading this thread just got me more hyped than before.

I can't wait to participate in tournaments, affect the story with my decisions and those of my clan, attend to winter court LARPs (actually I'll be doing my first one in March, and of course I've been given an scorpion courtier) and just be part of this great community.

I'm pretty sure I wanted to say other things, but I just got overriden by wanting to ally with the spider to destroy the kolat and my Hype for maybeifIcanpleaseBayushimakeithappen going to GenCon.

Cheers.

Glad to have you around. Additional scorpions are always welcome. Other clans are too, I guess ;D

Though, did I miss something? I have not seen any mention of l5r rpg 5th edition.

So no, shugenjas don't wear armor because that is not the thing they do in this society.

Just a side note, but shuggies don't wear armor because spell!armor beats normal!armor and the two are obviously mutually exclusive. And, of course, when a shuggie goes to battle then he is not supposed to leave his enemies in a shape to retaliate and/or have a bodyguard to take the heat.

This "armor makes the warrior" thing is similar to the "katana makes the duelist" case: it is just a convenient implication and it shouldn't be taken as granted. What the shuggie is doing is the ultimate measure of his status in a battle, and not what he wears.

Man, you know what L5R needs, now that this era of it is over? I would love to see a small team of L5R knowledgable writers and a _very_ patient editor take the large body of fiction and boil it all down into a coherent narrative. Combine fictions, fill in blanks to make series fit, commission new pieces to bridge things together. So that a person can sit down and read "L5R: A Brother's Destiny" or "L5R: Four Winds" and actually follow the narrative. I love the fictions, i do, but they aren't exactly approachable. There are often gaps and assumed knowledge about whats going on in the story and even if you read them at the time they can be confusing if not outright daunting. if the story were ongoing, this would be a waste of time, but with this era of the game more or less over, you could approach this block of fiction with some confidence that you won't ever have to worry about something changing and having to go back and fix it later.

I actually suggested something like this at one point when Readers first started getting popular and the game world first started putting out pdfs. I figured they could create an entirely new stream of revenue creating cohesive stories from sections of the fiction, but nothing ever came of it. Then, of course, the company was WAY behind the curve in putting products out in pdf format (they sort of missed most of the first OGL pdf boom), so I figured it was a waste of time trying to get actual novellas off the ground.

I've mulled doing "History of Rokugan" episodes as some sort of sideline to Strange Assembly, but it seemed like such a massive amount of work up front, just collecting and organizing all of the information out there.

Lots of good stuff.

Your joke about the Wall amused me greatly.

As a Crab I find your comments rather disconcerting. We've already lost two of our traditional allies to the side of darkness. The thought of losing our new best buddies as well is almost too much to bear.

As a Kolat I am unconcerned. In over one thousand years your only victory against us was the result of our less than ideal handling of an internal matter. I highly doubt better coordination with individuals vulnerable to jade and crystal will change things overmuch.

I hope you are successful in your efforts to attend GenCon. Barring some unforeseen catastrophe I'll be attending myself and a varied field is always preferable.

I'm pretty sure I wanted to say other things, but I just got overriden by wanting to ally with the spider to destroy the kolat and my Hype for maybeifIcanpleaseBayushimakeithappen going to GenCon.

Don't turn your back on the Pincer Alliance for something that your Clan are already masters!

Lots of good stuff.

Your joke about the Wall amused me greatly.

As a Crab I find your comments rather disconcerting. We've already lost two of our traditional allies to the side of darkness. The thought of losing our new best buddies as well is almost too much to bear.

As a Kolat I am unconcerned. In over one thousand years your only victory against us was the result of our less than ideal handling of an internal matter. I highly doubt better coordination with individuals vulnerable to jade and crystal will change things overmuch.

I hope you are successful in your efforts to attend GenCon. Barring some unforeseen catastrophe I'll be attending myself and a varied field is always preferable.

I didn't know what were you talking about, so I did my research and I think you are refering to this:

http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Scorpion_Wall

and this:

http://dojooflies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=397

Well, I didn't know about the pincer alliance (best name ever), but I'm quite glad there is such a thing. It makes a lot of sense to me given our shared pragmatism and our fight agains the forces of darkness. Anyway, I'm not in position of breaking any alliance, my individual opinions doesn't matter, I just do what my clan demands of me, since my Loyalty to the Scorpion is greater than my own thinking on the subject.

Regarding your allegiance to the Kolat... I have nothing to say, time will put you in place, scum (joking, I only think this "in character").

Good news on attending GenCon: I am 95% going, I will probably buy the tickets on December.

I'm pretty sure I wanted to say other things, but I just got overriden by wanting to ally with the spider to destroy the kolat and my Hype for maybeifIcanpleaseBayushimakeithappen going to GenCon.

Don't turn your back on the Pincer Alliance for something that your Clan are already masters!

Why, thank you

Now, I don't want to generate spam, so I will talk again about what makes L5R great. I just posted a link to "Dojo of Lies" which is the forum that the Scorpion clan uses to communicate and organize themselves. I am not registered since I have never played the CCG, but I started reading it a few months ago and it is very interesting. The commitment shown by the people is amazing and I think that the fact that they talk L5R matters (mostly) as if they were indeed characters from Rokugan only makes it better. L5R is not just a game and I love that.

I do hope that loyalty will stay strong in the new game, despite the ease of playing other clans inherent with the lcg set up.

I do hope that loyalty will stay strong in the new game, despite the ease of playing other clans inherent with the lcg set up.

Forget it. Only 'old' players, maybe, will follow this way. Every other, just like in other card games, will choose playable stuff, at least in competetive environment. Unless FFG will introduce some non mechanical motivation factors which i doubt personally.

You know, it's Living and that's philosophy behind it.

I do hope that loyalty will stay strong in the new game, despite the ease of playing other clans inherent with the lcg set up.

Forget it. Only 'old' players, maybe, will follow this way. Every other, just like in other card games, will choose playable stuff, at least in competetive environment. Unless FFG will introduce some non mechanical motivation factors which i doubt personally.

You know, it's Living and that's philosophy behind it.

Maybe in the beginning there will be differences between factions, but FFG tries hard to balance all the factions in their other games. The best example is GoT.

I do hope that loyalty will stay strong in the new game, despite the ease of playing other clans inherent with the lcg set up.

Forget it. Only 'old' players, maybe, will follow this way. Every other, just like in other card games, will choose playable stuff, at least in competetive environment. Unless FFG will introduce some non mechanical motivation factors which i doubt personally.

You know, it's Living and that's philosophy behind it.

Maybe in the beginning there will be differences between factions, but FFG tries hard to balance all the factions in their other games. The best example is GoT.

No, best example is Netrunner and Conquest.

For those of us who haven't played as many of their games for as long, can you explain what you're talking about here? Balancing factions seems like a good goal, no? You've brought up GoT, Netrunner, and Conquest as seemingly obvious examples of your points, but I've only played 2nd edition of the first of those, and none of the other two, so those points are lost on me. Thanks for any explanations.

I do hope that loyalty will stay strong in the new game, despite the ease of playing other clans inherent with the lcg set up.

Forget it. Only 'old' players, maybe, will follow this way. Every other, just like in other card games, will choose playable stuff, at least in competetive environment. Unless FFG will introduce some non mechanical motivation factors which i doubt personally.

You know, it's Living and that's philosophy behind it.

How could I respect a player whose wishy washy about their clan choice? It looks like they have no honor! Honor > all things!

Forget it. Only 'old' players, maybe, will follow this way. Every other, just like in other card games, will choose playable stuff, at least in competetive environment. Unless FFG will introduce some non mechanical motivation factors which i doubt personally.

You know, it's Living and that's philosophy behind it.

Isn't that mostly a result of the lack of story interaction in most games? There often is very little reason to stay faction loyal because tourney results have no influence on future events.

I do not believe Netrunner, GoT or Conquest allow for any player faction based storyline influence.