As one of the Spider players who actively pushed the Integration agenda at Winter Court, please let me assure everyone that the idea of the Spider Clan as a Great Clan of the Empire, monsters and all, was a VERY challenging proposal, rooted deeply in what I consider central flaws to the narrative of L5R.

In most ways, L5R is a straight up American / Western European fantasy epic narrative. It simply appropriates Bushido, Samurai, and several Japanese and some Chinese elements to flavor its otherwise normal American fantasy story. Legend of the Five Rings treats bushido and samurai with the same hand that Dragonlance treats dragons and knights. They are simply the trappings of an otherwise straight forward Good vs Evil, Light vs Darkness war story that has been present in Western European and American storytelling since Chretien de Troyes. It may claim to be inspired by Musashi's "Way of the Five Rings" and Sun Tzu's "The Art of War", and the CCG actually felt like it was. The setting, however, and its central narratives were not.

The integration of the Spider Clan into Rokugan only works when you put the world through a paradigm shift, and move it out of dualism and towards wholism, which is actually closer to the fantasy epics produced by the cultures L5R was appropriating its trappings from. Seriously, read Tale of Genji or Journey to the West or Romance of the Three Kingdoms sometimes if you want to get a better feel for Chinese and Japanese storytelling. Or read some of the old Japanese ghost story Noh plays. Or watch Onmyouji (which is a great film regardless, and you should watch anyways). In a more wholistic world, it is perfectly acceptable for the Emperor to keep a private army of monsters and demons, lead by Tainted men and women, to be wielded as a weapon against their foreign enemies. If evil does not exist in opposition to good, but co-exists with good in a state of harmonious service to the Son of Heaven (or Fate, or the what have you), then there is no inherent problem in the existence of the Spider Clan (all bad blood aside... the conflict with the Crab Clan would still be acceptable, as how can you expect a clan of demon killing samurai to not want to kill the clan of demonic samurai?).

Unfortunately, this is not the story that L5R has been for the 20 years of its history, nor the story the majority of its players wanted to participate in. They wanted their Good vs Evil narrative, with the big bad evil needing the Clans to unite to overcome. In that narrative, the Spider Clan cannot exist as a part of the Empire as they are by their nature the enemy of the Empire, unless they rejected that nature and all the associated baggage. Which was why Walk in the Light Story Path was not popular, though the Shourido Above All Else Story Path was still a compelling attempt at synthesis (and a movement towards Spider Clan identity that was separate from the Shadowlands Horde).

TL; DR -> L5R is written as a Good vs Evil narrative because that is what people wanted. The Spider Clan cannot function in a Good vs Evil narrative without serious problems.

On another side note, all this arguing is again causing the "Battestar Galactica Reboot" thoughts in my head again. Which is always an interesting thought experiment.

The integration of the Spider Clan into Rokugan only works when you put the world through a paradigm shift, and move it out of dualism and towards wholism, which is actually closer to the fantasy epics produced by the cultures L5R was appropriating its trappings from. Seriously, read Tale of Genji or Journey to the West or Romance of the Three Kingdoms sometimes if you want to get a better feel for Chinese and Japanese storytelling. Or read some of the old Japanese ghost story Noh plays. Or watch Onmyouji (which is a great film regardless, and you should watch anyways). In a more wholistic world, it is perfectly acceptable for the Emperor to keep a private army of monsters and demons, lead by Tainted men and women, to be wielded as a weapon against their foreign enemies. If evil does not exist in opposition to good, but co-exists with good in a state of harmonious service to the Son of Heaven (or Fate, or the what have you), then there is no inherent problem in the existence of the Spider Clan (all bad blood aside... the conflict with the Crab Clan would still be acceptable, as how can you expect a clan of demon killing samurai to not want to kill the clan of demonic samurai?).

This is insanely spot on, especially bolded. Its why I mentioned that the issues aren't with the Spider, but the nature of the circumstances that MADE them. The end of the Destroyer war was a paradigm shift, no longer did the lord of Jigoku seek war with the emerald empire but instead compromised.

This is HUGE in the setting, the implications and the reality of the situation was a very delicate subject. While the Identity of the Spider was fine, in fact when analyzed they fit quite well, this shift of focus and perspective was needed to be emphasized and I think the vast majority of these problems spawn from the handling of these issues.

TL; DR -> L5R is written as a Good vs Evil narrative because that is what people wanted.

I find it kinda funny that the so-called "Good Guys" in L5R tends to be even more evil than the dedicated "Evil Guys". The latter are kinda hard to take seriously with their cartoonish villany and try-hard edginess, while the former not only facilitates everything the latter tries to accomplish (see Togashi aka "I Will Make Doomsday Happen For REASONSOKNOWSHUTUP Guy") but constantly cover up their own incompetence with ridiculous amount of narcissism (see Isawa "No Regrets" Tadaka) - a somewhat unfortunate combination of flaws if you ask me.

In this regard, the Spider Clan perfectly fits the Rokugani narrative: they facilitate bad stuff and act all narcissistic about it. What else do you need?

What else do you need?

More romans.............

#GloryForOctavion

Not all Good Guys are on the side of Good. Not all Bad Guys are on the side of Evil. A good, compelling narrative usually features characters who contrast in that way, and L5R was often a good, compelling narrative in that result.

This is a product of the post-modernism and the deconstruction of fantasy storytelling archetypes.

Honestly, I think Daigotsu would have been a far better antagonist had he A) openly declared himself Hantei Daigotsu, and thus the rightful heir to the Throne which B) Toturi stole from his line by murdering Hantei XXXIX, his brother, which would have made his killing of Toturi C) an act of fulfilling his Bushido-demanded blood debt.

During the Fall of Otosan Uchi, while this was clear in the fiction, it was never clearly expressed to the "greater world of Rokugan". It would have made the freeing of Fu Leng, the death of Toturi, and the destruction of Otosan Uchi less the unambiguous actions of a Dark Lord of Evil, proving how Evil He Could Be, and more of a genuine, full-fledged antagonist for the nascent Toturi dynasty. Here, made manifest, is the incarnation of the old order, corrupted and powerful, and this was a struggle between dynasties, not just Jigoku being evil.

When explaining what L5R is to people, I usually say "L5R is to Magic what Chess is to Checkers.". There are so many different clans, each with it's own specific play style, lore, advantages and disadvantages. What I love most about this game is the almost unlimited ways you can play to win. How the different story lines help to foster strong ties, among players, to specific clans. The way players can effect the direction of the story arc through playing a game. It is, by far, one of the best games I have ever played.

Or watch Onmyouji (which is a great film regardless, and you should watch anyways).

They both are.

And if the Phoenix are in the new game, I hope the new Story Team looks to the interactions between Seimei and Hiromasa. The best example of what an Isawa and a Shiba could be.

And if the Phoenix are in the new game, I hope the new Story Team looks to the interactions between Seimei and Hiromasa. The best example of what an Isawa and a Shiba could be.

I'd settle for at least an acknowledgment that the Shiba/Isawa interplay is more indicative of the clan's core nature than the actions of any of its individual families...

Wasn't the story more holistic originally? IIRC, the original RPG book had a story about Ginawa wandering around with a Bloodsword and a magistrate basically being, "Woah, brah you should be careful with that," But otherwise leaving him alone.

I really hope they drill down on the core of what each faction is and define it. That means that a lot of each clans branches will be cut off, but I think it would make for a healthier game.

I also think they should do the same for the rpg, really defining what certain things are and are not and using mechanics to back it up.

Honestly, the Spider, as a great clan, did a freaking ton to integrate into rokugan. If we examine everything from Emperor to Twenty Festivals (Thunderous Acclaim and on if forced Onyx bull) we can see the Spider were pretty much integrating well enough.

The Chuda were not only gone, but being actively hunted by the Spider.

The Tainted were solely confined to the colonies and far from the empires boarders.

The Monks were becoming wide spread and beloved by the peasantry.

The new generation of Spider bushi were staying untainted and followed the basic rules of Rokugani society.

The Susumu were growing and playing the same political game as the other clans.

The Spider hunting the Kolat and working with the Scorpion to put down the traitors

The Spider were seeking allies to hunt down and kill the Dark Oracle of Fire himself to end his evil once and for all.

Well the Susumu and monks, notably Kisada's willingness to defend Tetsuo in the presence of the Emperor, are the main reason I'm willing to consider co-existence at all. My typical response to acts of integration by the Spider was to dismiss it as an act meant to lull us into a false sense of security before they stabbed us in the back. Then the chance to rise in rebellion with Kanpeki came and some of them didn't. They chose the Empire over Jigoku and after giving the matter considerable thought I decided that entitled them to as much of a right to life as a Crane (ie: don't anger us and make us go to war with you and you'll mostly be alright).

I'm not aware of any special efforts the Spider made against the Kolat or the Dark Oracle of Fire. If anything it seemed like Master Coin was trying to ingratiate himself with them. Though now that you mention it, while Wotan became the new Dark Oracle of Fire I don't think we ever saw the previous one get finished off.

Ultimately I think it boils down to: if the Spider are going to be evil don't have them be a Great Clan, if they're going to be a Great Clan have them try, or at least pretend to try, to turn good. AEG tried to go half and half and it turned out horribly.

The bolded seems to confuse me... What do you mean by "good"? I'm not being sarcastic or antagonistic but the concept of what we would call good is something very few clans can really claim to be.

I can see how that would be confusing and apologize for being unacceptably vague. I suppose the best way to phrase the point I was trying to get at is 'they need to stop being devotees of the Realm of Evil.' And having put it that way I can see how that would be asking Spider players to abandon everything they signed up for.

I'm going to get into the matter a bit more since I think it merits further discussion, though I realize we're dealing with very abstract subjects in a setting that has frequently contradicted itself on them.

It's important to note that I think there's an inherent difference between the natural 'badness' that's supposed to be embodied by the Obsidian Moon and the supernatural evil of Jigoku. I think the main issue is choice. For example, you could be in the middle of a red light district surrounded by vice and temptation, yet it's still a matter of the individual's character if they'll succumb or not.

With Jigoku you don't get that. You could be the most virtuous samurai in history, but you're in the Shadowlands, you run out of jade, it's a roll of the dice if you'll become Tainted or not. And then you're forced to become a servant of evil. After all, all those samurai who became Tainted during the Battle of Oblivion's Gate were ostensibly honorable, yet rather than kill themselves in a manner that would prevent them from becoming zombies they lived and turned their blades upon the Empire they would have once died to protect.

One additional point I'd like to bring up: I don't believe your comparison of Lion ancestors to the undead was accurate. Specifically I don't think the Lion have ever caused a spirit of the deceased to physically manifest in the world of the living and doing so seems like it would verge of Oblivion's Gate levels of unobtainable magic.

I wish I could respond to more of your post, but it was very long and giving everything the attention it deserves would take much more time than I can justify to myself.

One additional point I'd like to bring up: I don't believe your comparison of Lion ancestors to the undead was accurate. Specifically I don't think the Lion have ever caused a spirit of the deceased to physically manifest in the world of the living and doing so seems like it would verge of Oblivion's Gate levels of unobtainable magic.

Well, I hate to admit it because it really badly contradicts other (and IMHO better) lore, but there have been a few cards where Kitsu summon spirits to fight. It still hardly compares to using undead, though, because A) they're honored ancestors rather than damned souls, and B) the spirits come willingly, rather than being compelled.

A much better comparison would be the Kitsu Spirit Legion path from the RPG. Those guys actually summon slaughter spirits from Toshigoku and compel them to fight for the shugenja. (Although, since we're talking about slaughter spirits, it's really more that they're compelled to kill only the enemy instead of everything in the vicinity.)

On the other hand, though, the Kitsu Spirit Legion is so controversial even among their own family that I don't recall them ever being intentionally deployed in canon. As they were never used, I'm inclined to not count them, but there's certainly room for legitimate disagreement there.

I really hope they drill down on the core of what each faction is and define it. That means that a lot of each clans branches will be cut off, but I think it would make for a healthier game.

I also think they should do the same for the rpg, really defining what certain things are and are not and using mechanics to back it up.

Yes, I feel that's a good start also.

Are they slaughter spirits? I don't remember them being spelled out as such and always assumed they were honored dead.

Are they slaughter spirits? I don't remember them being spelled out as such and always assumed they were honored dead.

The read up is in The Book of Air, 4th Ed RPG, p. 81-82. Wow, there are only ever twelve members of that group at a time.

I wish I could respond to more of your post, but it was very long and giving everything the attention it deserves would take much more time than I can justify to myself.

Yeah, I tend to ramble some times...

But a few comments though

And keep in mind, I'm mostly talking before Thunderous Acclaim and Seiken's breaking of the deal. That entire chain of events was designed to force the empire into Onyx edition, was rushed like crazy, derailed pretty much all the story lines of the past 3 years, was filled with poor logic, bad reasoning, and involved the majority of personalities acting way out of their established characters in a marketing ploy and story reform to tie in to their 20th anniversary and try to cash in on the nostalgia of their players.

If we are talking Great Clan Spider, we should be really be talking from the Announcement in Goddess 4 to the end of Winter Court 4. Twenty festivals and on were so far removed, pre planned, incomplete and deliberately manipulated that they are irrelevant to Great Clan Spider, since they had no intention of keeping the Great Clan Spider since most likely 2014 based on their set design. It DID happen, and most people don't like it (I CERTAINLY have major objections to characters like Tetsuo and Kuroko completely 180-ing on loyalties on a dime... but that is a discussion for another day) but we are talking Great Clan Spider and the theoretical of their existence in the empire.

It's important to note that I think there's an inherent difference between the natural 'badness' that's supposed to be embodied by the Obsidian Moon and the supernatural evil of Jigoku. I think the main issue is choice. For example, you could be in the middle of a red light district surrounded by vice and temptation, yet it's still a matter of the individual's character if they'll succumb or not.

With Jigoku you don't get that. You could be the most virtuous samurai in history, but you're in the Shadowlands, you run out of jade, it's a roll of the dice if you'll become Tainted or not. And then you're forced to become a servant of evil. After all, all those samurai who became Tainted during the Battle of Oblivion's Gate were ostensibly honorable, yet rather than kill themselves in a manner that would prevent them from becoming zombies they lived and turned their blades upon the Empire they would have once died to protect.

This right here is why the deal with Daigotsu and its implications and realities are the REAL problem as they single handedly change the entire nature of how Jigoku technically works in setting.

BIG NOTE: This is ignoring the "surprise twist" in the Thunderous Acclaim stories as I've mentioned. That twist was both written as pointless and irrelevant when taken into full context, introduce setting shaking implications and caused more plot holes then almost any other fiction I can recall in L5R. And, seeing as it was the most important fiction in years that was setting the stage for the most controversial story arc in L5R history, it basically failed on almost every level of what it needed to do. We are going to just assume the deal functioned as it was made and functioned in Goddess 4.

If we are talking BEFORE goddess 4 your reasoning works out. Taint and Jigoku were ravenous and all consuming, a threat that MUST be met with caution and fear at every level. However AFTER Goddess 4 that changed big time.

Daigotsu changed how the taint functions in setting. It was NOT contagious to Rokugani citizens and could ONLY be attained by personally asking for it. In the era of the great clan Spider you could be in the middle of the shadowlands and still not need jade to keep yourself pure so long as you served the empress.

This paradigm shift basically ends the idea that people "accidentally" became tainted, if you suddenly were tainted it was because YOU wanted it. While the older generation of the Spider were already tainted, so they are still doomed servants of evil, the same damning logic doesn't apply to newer generations.

Daigotsu, as the new Master of Jigoku, was a new title and influence in the celestial cosmos. He wasn't a Champion of Jigoku, a figure of destiny that was chosen by Jigoku and empowered, like Fu-Leng but instead seized control over the realm becoming its Master.

This MATTERS, its matters a lot. Fu-Leng was the champion of Jigoku, driven to madness by its chaotic influence and bound to its anarchy. Daigotsu is different, not only was he its ruler but also sane.

On the day of his ascension in Goddess 4 the nature of Jigoku was changed in a huge number of ways and new facts where thrown out, a few of the more relevant ones were:

1. There is a difference between Fu-Leng and Kali Ma's Championship titles and Daigotsu's Mastery title.

2. The Master of Jigoku has powers beyond anything that Fu-Leng and Kali Ma could manifest (creating a second pit with next to no effort)

3. Daigotsu has a unique control over the, once disease like, nature of the Taint.

4. He can establish powerful new Fortunes, tying concepts like deception, power, blood, devotion and more to Jigoku based entities instead of Tengoku.

5. He can act in opposition to the wills of the other powerful Oni Lords which, due to our knowledge of how Oni represent Jigoku's nature, implies he can act against the very nature of Jigoku as its master.

6. He can deny the gift of the Taint to those exposed to it and change the laws of Jigoku's nature.

7. Jigoku does not inherently need to be in constant war with the heavens but now can compromise.

8. The God of Jigoku could now theoretically be negotiated with and treaties and agreements could be made that would be honored.

ANY of these alone would be radically setting changing, but they all happened at once, in one story, and after that were pretty much NEVER expanded upon. This was the biggest mistake as it set up such confusion. They needed to explain, if not in character then CERTAINLY out of character to us all the nature of Jigoku and how it was functioning in the setting.

Spider works as a Great Clan in their set up because their tainted forces, baring the ninja, were a dying problem at best, a controlled aspect at the worst. The complaints that they were worshiping the God of evil subtly changed as the God of Evil went from the Mad God Fu-Leng, seeker of the destruction of Rokugan and the consumption of the world, to a God that sought entirely different goals, the ascension and success of his own personal descendants and his clan. These are different entities entirely and Daigotsu worship didn't automatically taint someone nor turn them directly to evil. He was now a unique new deity, one not of the heavens as well, like the Death Gods of the Unicorn and those Fortunes of various other realms.

The idea of split worship isn't new to Rokugan, indeed the Death Gods personally negotiated over worship and position in the cosmic order before as they were Gaijin gods by every example and pretty evil in their own ways, but are given regulated purpose and place through compromise and agreement. Daigotsu was no different, so long as his Clan lived and his line ruled said clan there would be no conflict between the Emerald Empire and Jigoku outside of the rouge Oni lords here and there (another great aspect that needed to be expanded upon).

The failure to properly explain these important aspects hurt the setting immensely and left so many questions and confusion. There is a REASON that Goddess 4 is hated as much as it is.

I'm not aware of any special efforts the Spider made against the Kolat or the Dark Oracle of Fire. If anything it seemed like Master Coin was trying to ingratiate himself with them. Though now that you mention it, while Wotan became the new Dark Oracle of Fire I don't think we ever saw the previous one get finished off.

These were parts of Winter Court IV, which I've already said I consider the last part of the "Great Clan" timeline of the Spider clan before story took a hard turn onto the railroad of doom.

At Winter Court 4 there were a number of movements and initiatives taken by the players. I WAS in the unicorn delegation, so I didn't get to peek behind the curtain for the Spider players so I don't know EVERY detail and will probably get corrected by Sndwrks on a few but some notable ones were:

1. The Dark Fortune's location north of Dragon lands was confirmed and the Spider were seeking allies to find him and put him down. The dragon agreed to help and though I don't know all the reasoning, the basis was that Spider remember well his betrayal of Daigotsu during the War of Dark Fire, grudges of dark gods run deep after all. It was a well enough motive to explain it.

2. The Spider were opposed to the Kolat. On the surface its confusing but it makes sense though when you think about it. The Spider are along side Phoenix as one of the most zealous clans in the empire, their connections with Jigoku as intimate as the phoenix are to Tengoku. The Kolat seek to drive mankind and the natural world away from control and influence of the other spiritual realms and promote mankinds own dominance, the Spider are the opposite, seeking to follow their God and his demi-god son and convert as many to the influence of these patrons as possible.

Kanpeki is also a Hantei, he is the divine descendent of the Kami that ruled Rokugan and carries the blood and blessings of the lord of hell itself. There is almost no one the Kolat would fear more then him save maybe the empress herself. The spider also are a direct competitor in the dark underbelly of rokugan alongside the scorpion. The Kolat and the Spider agents no doubt clash in the shadows over control. They are natural enemies by both philosophy and intention.

The Wintercourt expanded on that and had one of their members, Susumu Naishi, personally fake her own death to seek out and infiltrate the Kolat. It also showed that the Spider and the Scorpion, despite their hatred for each other, saw a similar enemy and have been working together on the side to exterminate the kolat. This would lead to the Scorpion fan base choosing to have the majority of the Scorpion openly betray the empire with the Spider in Onyx under the reason to finally end the kolat, so strong was both clan's dedication to eradicating the kolat.

As for Master coin.... I still, to this very day, have NO idea why he makes clout tokens... there is no story reason given and him interacting with the Spider in any way but hostile would be very out of character... Considering there is a whole story about how the Susumu had design changes half way through their CCG cycle which crippled them and the clout mechanic, got clout in ONE set and never again, I personally think it was a rushed and forced attempt to make SOMETHING interact with clout in the next set. But yeah, its weird.

3. A player designed initiative to attempt to use the Blood of the Preserver to purify the ruins of Otosan Uchi and claim it as Spider land in the Empire proper, using Kanpeki's claim as a Hantei as part of the reasoning. The move, along with the port cities near the ruins gifted to the Spider by the Mantis would have ensured that Spider had real territory in the empire. It ALMOST worked as well, getting the support of 6 clans and the Imperial families. The only real reason it failed was that a player who personally didn't like the idea openly sabotaged the movement by informing players out of character that it wasn't an official clan goal and that certain GMs were apparently opposed to the movement, killing it dead in the water. Shame because that would have been awesome, something that really caught even the die hard spider players by pleasant surprise.

4. A movement by the Spider and Kuni to launch an inquiry into the full nature of the Dark Fortunes and what good can come of these infernal entities.

5. A movement of the Spider to create an Obsidian Magistrate order to hunt those tainted that, by their own choice, refused the control of Kanpeki and operated outside of the Spider clans control, like bloodspeakers, rouge tainted samurai, and such.

6. A movement to work with the Scorpion to hunt and eradicate the Goju We don't talk about this one as it got nowhere and was shot down by the next fiction. Plus it was met by the biggest "WTF" by the Spider community.

Shh little goju, your safe with me...

Overall, the Spider delegation was very interesting that year. Their objectives, had the coming story not completely erase all of these plot points, would have been very interesting going forward for sure. Shame that AEG suddenly decided to force 1000 years of Darkness-not on the setting... instead...

One additional point I'd like to bring up: I don't believe your comparison of Lion ancestors to the undead was accurate. Specifically I don't think the Lion have ever caused a spirit of the deceased to physically manifest in the world of the living and doing so seems like it would verge of Oblivion's Gate levels of unobtainable magic.

I don't know about anything before emperor edition but there was an entire CCG deck for lion based on making an army of spirits to protect your provinces as you honor run... They felt VERY real lol. The Lion summoned the dead more then the Spider ever did in Ivory and Emperor, I'll tell you that

For clarity regarding Winter Court IV, and the Spider Clan delegation's goals and motivations... A LOT of our work in WC4 originated out of a dual need to stay loyal to our fellow Spider Clan players while finding a place for the Spider Clan in the Empire as a whole. While the WC3 players got to play their Spider Clan members in a place where the Spider Clan had power, we really had none in WC4, and had our first and foremost challenge in simply getting the Crab Clan and Lion Clan to talk with us. I feel we succeeded incredibly in showing that the Spider Clan COULD work in L5R, but in doing so, we burned some of our bridges with the more extreme elements of the Spider Clan playerbase.

So all that being said...

1) The Dark Oracle of Fire - So, the Colonies were drying up and were divided between the other Great Clans. What do you do with an army of conquerors who were forbidden from entering the Empire proper, which also gave your Great Clan its purpose, when its initial purpose was over? You find someone else to conquer, dammit. But rather than get accepted, this ultimately got handed the "The Story Team will get back to you on this." answer from the court.

2) Otosan Uchi and the Blood of the Preserver - I honestly do not remember the Blood of the Preserver ever being brought up for this purpose until the discussions for Winter Court 5, but I wish it had. Instead, we just got a trade deal for our first in Rokugan holding (one of the Hub Villages), and petitioned for the duty of restoring Otosan Uchi to the Empire, for a bunch of reasons. This got the response of "No for now, but the Story Team will get back to you on this."

3) The Progressive Trade Alliance - Whoa, was this a hail mary of politics and stomped on ALL the toes! But I consider this my own personal success story of getting something that would have gotten nearly any other Clan thrown out of court for even attempting, and succeeding. Feather in cap and all. Also, this got the "Yes for now, but the Story Team will get back to you on this." (Noticing a theme yet?)

4) The Kolat, the Goju, the Obsidian Magistrates, and various other side projects - These were all personal projects by members of the delegation which, ultimately, were left standing in the wind. Except the infiltration of the Kolat. Naishi made her way into the official fiction, and was last seen as an oyabun under the Abbot / Master Coin, recruiting Master Chrysanthemum from the ranks of the Dragon. If she is ever seen again, I will be amazingly gratified and pleased.

A ton of what we did with the Spider Clan seemed to get a lot of the Story Team attention, in ways that they seemed to not expect. We came out of Winter Court 4 with high spirits, and a belief that maybe, just maybe this could actually work. We could make the Spider Clan a functioning entity within the story of Legend of the Five Rings, without it being the Big Bad.

And then Thunderous Acclaim got leaked, and we learned that the fate of the Spider Clan was already written. And that no matter who won the Throne, they were going to betray the Spider Clan (or be betrayed by the Spider Clan, depending on your point of view), and everything we worked for in Winter Court 4 was going to amount to nothing. And there was nothing we could do about it.

TL; DR - The Spider Clan players at Winter Court 4 worked HARD to make the Spider Clan work in Rokugan. By and large, we succeeded. And then, AEG revealed that the story of our failure was already written, and there was nothing we could do.

So if you ever want to know why most Spider Clan players (like myself, Itsy, Sparks, Cielago, Zarasu, and others) get VERY passionate over this subject? Now you know. YEARS of work trying to get something that couldn't work in L5R to work in L5R, and just when we succeeded? Brand direction blew it up on us.

Not that we're bitter at all about it. Really.

Are they slaughter spirits? I don't remember them being spelled out as such and always assumed they were honored dead.

Almost invariably, this ability draws spirits from Toshigoku,although one current Spirit Legionnaire appears to draw upon Chikushudo, the Realm of Animals. These abilities have sparked a tremendous debate among the Kitsu Family. There are those who believe that binding spirits to one's will in this manner is blasphemous and ought not to be tolerated, no matter what the benefit to the Clan. Others argue that, by allowing these spirits to serve the Clan, even briefly, the shugenja summoning them are not only granting them a temporary respite from their torment, but allowing them the opportunity to overcome the kharma that binds them to the Realm of Slaughter in the first place. Regardless of whether the latter is true or not, it is certain that the spirits summoned to the mortal realm are in no genuine danger; the most that can happen to them is that they are dispatched from the mortal realm and returned to Toshigoku.

It seems very un-Lion-like to me, but it's canon. I wonder if they were originally planning on basing a story off of this and ended up abandoning the idea.

This right here is why the deal with Daigotsu and its implications and realities are the REAL problem as they single handedly change the entire nature of how Jigoku technically works in setting.

[snip]

The failure to properly explain these important aspects hurt the setting immensely and left so many questions and confusion. There is a REASON that Goddess 4 is hated as much as it is.

That they never released any RPG mechanics for this stuff really didn't help matters. I think most GM's kept using old-style taint simply because they had no idea how to portray the new style.

A ton of what we did with the Spider Clan seemed to get a lot of the Story Team attention, in ways that they seemed to not expect. We came out of Winter Court 4 with high spirits, and a belief that maybe, just maybe this could actually work. We could make the Spider Clan a functioning entity within the story of Legend of the Five Rings, without it being the Big Bad.

And then Thunderous Acclaim got leaked, and we learned that the fate of the Spider Clan was already written. And that no matter who won the Throne, they were going to betray the Spider Clan (or be betrayed by the Spider Clan, depending on your point of view), and everything we worked for in Winter Court 4 was going to amount to nothing. And there was nothing we could do about it.

. . .

Not that we're bitter at all about it. Really.

I want to sympathize with your pain, but all I can think is that . . . you are not alone in those sort of frustrations.

Maybe you should have looked at the history of the PtB and the WC game "decisions" (or any game decisions for that matter). Might have saved you a lot of anguish in the long run.

There was always an enormous gulf between what they promised the WC folks and what they actually did with the information.

Easy example? Back in WCI, they even put in writing that delegations would get to vote on whether their faction sided with the Khan. It was in the beginning information and again in the final questionnaire. I believe the Dragon delegation voted unanimously against the Khan, and then they had people make kotei choices to back up that decision (over taking territories or other prizes).

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how that turned out. The Dragon got stuck accepting rice from the Khan and then were virtually absent from the rest of fictions, leaving people to accuse them of being "silent supporters."

The Mantis had a similar problem. Their delegation lost the only Khan supporter fairly early on, and voted unanimously against the Khan, but . . . to be fair to the PtB, there were two Dynasty players--one who had no firm allegiance, and one who usually identified as Mantis--who made kotei votes for the Khan with Mantis decks. So, at least there were conflicting results there.

But the Dragon had no such confusion on their actions about the Khan, and despite their avowed opposition . . . they got one scene with Satsu and Domotai, which, no matter how unique a resolution it was to a war, it still had nothing to do with the Khan.

And . . . that's not even touching the lack of a "Dragon" influence on the setting after the Dragon actually WON the Race. We're talking players who went out of their way to WIN the whole thing over a TWO YEAR period, and . . . nothing actually changed in the setting as a result. Dragon had as little direction and attention after the Race as they'd had for a couple of years before it. Shoot, at best, Iweko turned out to be every bit as incompetent as Toturi in actually doing anything for her own family; she was the Kitsuki Daimyo, after all. You'd think as the Empress, she would have just made the Kitsuki Method Imperial Law.

WOW!!!!

It seems to me that the Winter Court series were all just wastes of everyone's time!

I guess it's just best to do away with them altogether in that aspect.

I really didn't know that so many people put in so much of their time for no reason. This is crazy news to me!

Honestly, I thought the Winter Court series were great because people who don't like or play the CCG got a chance to influence the story... But ****!!! I had no idea how little to no story came out of Winter Courts... or were just not what people were playing for.

When the cards were at the printers a year ahead, Winter Court was always going to be limited in impact.

I played in the two I did to have fun. Any canon impact we were permitted beyond that was essentially gravy.

Case in point- At WCIV, the Phoenix and Unicorn delegation spent a LOT of our time on peace negotiations we knew weren't going to stop the war before the relevant sets had spun out. We did it because it felt like what our characters, as representatives of their clans, would do. And we did see some payoff, in that the war stories we got were decidedly light on malice. Good enough for me.

And . . . that's not even touching the lack of a "Dragon" influence on the setting after the Dragon actually WON the Race. We're talking players who went out of their way to WIN the whole thing over a TWO YEAR period, and . . . nothing actually changed in the setting as a result.

Dragon got "free" Imperial Favour in CCG (Celestial).

A ton of what we did with the Spider Clan seemed to get a lot of the Story Team attention, in ways that they seemed to not expect. We came out of Winter Court 4 with high spirits, and a belief that maybe, just maybe this could actually work. We could make the Spider Clan a functioning entity within the story of Legend of the Five Rings, without it being the Big Bad.

And then Thunderous Acclaim got leaked, and we learned that the fate of the Spider Clan was already written. And that no matter who won the Throne, they were going to betray the Spider Clan (or be betrayed by the Spider Clan, depending on your point of view), and everything we worked for in Winter Court 4 was going to amount to nothing. And there was nothing we could do about it.

. . .

Not that we're bitter at all about it. Really.

I want to sympathize with your pain, but all I can think is that . . . you are not alone in those sort of frustrations.

Maybe you should have looked at the history of the PtB and the WC game "decisions" (or any game decisions for that matter). Might have saved you a lot of anguish in the long run.

There was always an enormous gulf between what they promised the WC folks and what they actually did with the information.

Easy example? Back in WCI, they even put in writing that delegations would get to vote on whether their faction sided with the Khan. It was in the beginning information and again in the final questionnaire. I believe the Dragon delegation voted unanimously against the Khan, and then they had people make kotei choices to back up that decision (over taking territories or other prizes).

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how that turned out. The Dragon got stuck accepting rice from the Khan and then were virtually absent from the rest of fictions, leaving people to accuse them of being "silent supporters."

The Mantis had a similar problem. Their delegation lost the only Khan supporter fairly early on, and voted unanimously against the Khan, but . . . to be fair to the PtB, there were two Dynasty players--one who had no firm allegiance, and one who usually identified as Mantis--who made kotei votes for the Khan with Mantis decks. So, at least there were conflicting results there.

But the Dragon had no such confusion on their actions about the Khan, and despite their avowed opposition . . . they got one scene with Satsu and Domotai, which, no matter how unique a resolution it was to a war, it still had nothing to do with the Khan.

And . . . that's not even touching the lack of a "Dragon" influence on the setting after the Dragon actually WON the Race. We're talking players who went out of their way to WIN the whole thing over a TWO YEAR period, and . . . nothing actually changed in the setting as a result. Dragon had as little direction and attention after the Race as they'd had for a couple of years before it. Shoot, at best, Iweko turned out to be every bit as incompetent as Toturi in actually doing anything for her own family; she was the Kitsuki Daimyo, after all. You'd think as the Empress, she would have just made the Kitsuki Method Imperial Law.

I always did found that strange. Why didn't Iweko make the Kitsuki Method Imperial Law? I mean, she is the Empress and her word is law right...?

When the cards were at the printers a year ahead.

6-7 months for printing/shipping. Maybe actually a year if you add design/playtest.

When the cards were at the printers a year ahead, Winter Court was always going to be limited in impact.

I played in the two I did to have fun. Any canon impact we were permitted beyond that was essentially gravy.

Case in point- At WCIV, the Phoenix and Unicorn delegation spent a LOT of our time on peace negotiations we knew weren't going to stop the war before the relevant sets had spun out. We did it because it felt like what our characters, as representatives of their clans, would do. And we did see some payoff, in that the war stories we got were decidedly light on malice. Good enough for me.

OK... but why tell players that they are going to effect the story with Winter Court then? I guess I don't understand what the appeal to even participate in it if you aren't even gonna do anything with regards to the setting. I really thought that was the whole point of Winter Court. I enjoyed my RPG friends jumping in and having fun and changing things up for the story. But to find out that they didn't do anything and that it has always been that way just makes me wonder why bother with it at all. I remember the biggest advertisement for Winter Court was that everything will be cannon. Is this just a straight up lie or what?