I am not ignorant on the matter, thank you. But why are you talking about the Shadowlands when we are talking about the Spider ? And more specifically the non-Great Clan Spider.

I'm going to rephrase it because obviously you did not understand (which is a habit of yours), but maybe it's me. So what I asked is how long this period (the non-Great Clan Spider) last ? And I asked to compare it to the lifetime of this game, and to how long the Naga or the Nezumi lasted as playable factions. Is that clear enough for you ?

Least but not last, that's not my argument. I didn't talk about that. I'm questionning someone who did.

Since I have had to timeline this out before...

October 1995 - Full release of Imperial Edition L5R.

May 1996 - Shadowlands - Naga faction released.

December 1996 - Anvil of Despair - Yogo Junzo's Army faction is released.

April 1997 - Crimson and Jade - Yoritomo's Alliance faction is released.

May 1998 - Jade Edition - Yogo Junzo's Army becomes the Shadowlands Horde. Remains a playable faction through the next several arcs.

May 2000- Heroes of Rokugan DTP set - Warrens of the Nezumi released, creation of the Ratling faction

June 2001 - Gold Edition - Naga faction is removed, along with Yoritomo's Alliance, and others. Ratlings are legal, but not supported until Winds of Change in August 2003

April 2002 - Fall of Otosan Uchi - The Mantis Clan faction is reintroduced.

March 2007 - Tomorrow - The last Ratling stronghold is released and the faction is not made legal for Samurai edition.

May 2007 - Lotus Arc - The Truest Test - The first Spider Clan box is released, bugged for Samurai edition.

July 2007 - Samurai Edition - Ratlings removed, and the Shadowlands faction officially becomes the Spider Clan for faction purposes.

July 2011- Forgotten Legacy - The non-faction aligned Monster Stronghold was released to represent Kali-Ma's Horde, the force of the Dark Naga, and whatever else you wanted.

September 2015 - End of Legend of the Five Rings CCG

So, the Shadowlands Horde was turned into the Spider Clan during Samuai Edition, which was in 2007. So, we have 10 years as the Horde, and 9 years as the Spider Clan. Treating these as two different beasts thematically is fine, but it is incorrect to consider them separate factions.

I am not ignorant on the matter, thank you. But why are you talking about the Shadowlands when we are talking about the Spider ? And more specifically the non-Great Clan Spider.

Probably because narratively the Spider was pretty much just a name change for the Shadowland Hoards... Their core themes and such are what makes them relevant and that didn't change really. Spider could still play oni, still used undead armies, had evil samurai, bloodspeakers, goblins, and all the other crazy ****. It just was called "the Spider Clan". The playerbase for hordes and Spider come from the same background and enjoy the same themes. Hell the "great clan spider" existed for 30 years in setting, out of a 1200 year history of Rokugan, and it ended with Spider revealing they were still the same evil as they always were.

You said they can be believable as a great clan if x,y, and z happens, but I'm of the opinion that if x,y, and, z happens, they cease to be the spider clan. This is really what bothers me about the spider becoming a great clan in the first place. You can't take x,y, and z away from the spider and expect the spider players to like it. And you can't really leave x,y, and z in the spider for everyone to believe the spider fit in the setting as a great clan.

This was the crux of the, much heated, arguments on the Spider Forums between Walk the Light players and the Spider Clan players.

One group wanted to remain a great clan and were willing to remove everything traditional about the faction, strip it down to bare bones and just hope something good comes of it and try to make something new. Opposed to them were the Spider players that saw the decision as removing the W, X, Y, Z and such that MADE spider... well spider. I only realized this later in that argument but its basically the definitive idea why such an option to force them into clan status isn't that realistic. Plus Spider clan sold and was profitable... that matters as well. Based on what I know, it would be more financially wise to keep Spider in the game from that reason alone. Villains sell product.

(I'll never forgive them for trying to steal my Susumu babies away though...*grumble* I love my evil courtiers *grumble*)

look, your problem here is you obviously are new to this particular fight. you literally cannot outlast spider fans in the "your faction should not exist" fight. i could literally die, and someone else would step in and keep arguing with you.

Oh, how very true this is... Spiders are a hardy breed for sure.

For me, the Spider Clan is a community of players like Sparks, Buttlord, Cielago, Zarasu, and dozens of others who welcomed me into their group with enthusiasm. What made me a Spider Clan player has nothing to do with the world of L5R, and everything to do with the players surrounding it. I honestly had not felt that welcome in a faction since the Naga got axed before Gold Edition.

Agreed, if it wasn't for the encouraging Spider community I would be a Crane or a Lion right now...... the horror...

How about we take a step back, cool off and talk about another subject?

This is now a Yodotai thread in which we talk about the only truly relevant faction in the setting. I don't hide the fact that if I had to chose the Spider or the Yodotai as a playable faction I would be the first to grab a roman helmet and conquer for the glory of Deus Conquest.

Hello Legend of the Five Rings community-

Friendly discussion is okay, but please remember to treat your fellow forum users with kindness and respect at all times, regardless of your personal opinions. This (very long) thread has a lot of good discussion in it, but I will lock it if the arguments get out of hand.

Thanks, and keep playing,

FFG Forum Moderator

I am not ignorant on the matter, thank you. But why are you talking about the Shadowlands when we are talking about the Spider ? And more specifically the non-Great Clan Spider.

I'm going to rephrase it because obviously you did not understand (which is a habit of yours), but maybe it's me. So what I asked is how long this period (the non-Great Clan Spider) last ? And I asked to compare it to the lifetime of this game, and to how long the Naga or the Nezumi lasted as playable factions. Is that clear enough for you ?

Least but not last, that's not my argument. I didn't talk about that. I'm questionning someone who did.

Since I have had to timeline this out before...

October 1995 - Full release of Imperial Edition L5R.

May 1996 - Shadowlands - Naga faction released.

December 1996 - Anvil of Despair - Yogo Junzo's Army faction is released.

April 1997 - Crimson and Jade - Yoritomo's Alliance faction is released.

May 1998 - Jade Edition - Yogo Junzo's Army becomes the Shadowlands Horde. Remains a playable faction through the next several arcs.

May 2000- Heroes of Rokugan DTP set - Warrens of the Nezumi released, creation of the Ratling faction

June 2001 - Gold Edition - Naga faction is removed, along with Yoritomo's Alliance, and others. Ratlings are legal, but not supported until Winds of Change in August 2003

April 2002 - Fall of Otosan Uchi - The Mantis Clan faction is reintroduced.

March 2007 - Tomorrow - The last Ratling stronghold is released and the faction is not made legal for Samurai edition.

May 2007 - Lotus Arc - The Truest Test - The first Spider Clan box is released, bugged for Samurai edition.

July 2007 - Samurai Edition - Ratlings removed, and the Shadowlands faction officially becomes the Spider Clan for faction purposes.

July 2011- Forgotten Legacy - The non-faction aligned Monster Stronghold was released to represent Kali-Ma's Horde, the force of the Dark Naga, and whatever else you wanted.

September 2015 - End of Legend of the Five Rings CCG

So, the Shadowlands Horde was turned into the Spider Clan during Samuai Edition, which was in 2007. So, we have 10 years as the Horde, and 9 years as the Spider Clan. Treating these as two different beasts thematically is fine, but it is incorrect to consider them separate factions.

Also in last official expansion, Evil Portents, was Sensei that allow to play full Shadowlands/Oni deck from every clan :

i love so much that he's a crane. furthers my assertion that crane were always the shadowlands/spiders' best recruiting ground

I am not ignorant on the matter, thank you. But why are you talking about the Shadowlands when we are talking about the Spider ? And more specifically the non-Great Clan Spider.

I'm going to rephrase it because obviously you did not understand (which is a habit of yours), but maybe it's me. So what I asked is how long this period (the non-Great Clan Spider) last ? And I asked to compare it to the lifetime of this game, and to how long the Naga or the Nezumi lasted as playable factions. Is that clear enough for you ?

Least but not last, that's not my argument. I didn't talk about that. I'm questionning someone who did.

Since I have had to timeline this out before...

October 1995 - Full release of Imperial Edition L5R.

May 1996 - Shadowlands - Naga faction released.

December 1996 - Anvil of Despair - Yogo Junzo's Army faction is released.

April 1997 - Crimson and Jade - Yoritomo's Alliance faction is released.

May 1998 - Jade Edition - Yogo Junzo's Army becomes the Shadowlands Horde. Remains a playable faction through the next several arcs.

May 2000- Heroes of Rokugan DTP set - Warrens of the Nezumi released, creation of the Ratling faction

June 2001 - Gold Edition - Naga faction is removed, along with Yoritomo's Alliance, and others. Ratlings are legal, but not supported until Winds of Change in August 2003

April 2002 - Fall of Otosan Uchi - The Mantis Clan faction is reintroduced.

March 2007 - Tomorrow - The last Ratling stronghold is released and the faction is not made legal for Samurai edition.

May 2007 - Lotus Arc - The Truest Test - The first Spider Clan box is released, bugged for Samurai edition.

July 2007 - Samurai Edition - Ratlings removed, and the Shadowlands faction officially becomes the Spider Clan for faction purposes.

July 2011- Forgotten Legacy - The non-faction aligned Monster Stronghold was released to represent Kali-Ma's Horde, the force of the Dark Naga, and whatever else you wanted.

September 2015 - End of Legend of the Five Rings CCG

So, the Shadowlands Horde was turned into the Spider Clan during Samuai Edition, which was in 2007. So, we have 10 years as the Horde, and 9 years as the Spider Clan. Treating these as two different beasts thematically is fine, but it is incorrect to consider them separate factions.

Also in last official expansion, Evil Portents, was Sensei that allow to play full Shadowlands/Oni deck from every clan :

The Oni Sensei is a Crane? Why am I not surprised? A Phoenix would be a better fit tho .

i love so much that he's a crane. furthers my assertion that crane were always the shadowlands/spiders' best recruiting ground

Yep.

In Celestial - Oni smash from Shiro Daidoji (got some tops on Koteis)

In Emperor (fast errated) - Shinden Asahina (Raido no) Oni blitz utilizing I Give You My Name and Amazing Feat.

i love so much that he's a crane. furthers my assertion that crane were always the shadowlands/spiders' best recruiting ground

But... what about all the great bloodspeakers from... *looks to make sure Shiba Gunichi isn't looking* ....Phoenix, they have been very solid providers of the mahos and the crazies!

i love so much that he's a crane. furthers my assertion that crane were always the shadowlands/spiders' best recruiting ground

But... what about all the great bloodspeakers from... *looks to make sure Shiba Gunichi isn't looking* ....Phoenix, they have been very solid providers of the mahos and the crazies!

As a Hantei, even Daigotsu has Crane blood from most of the Hantei taking Crane brides. And don't forget Yajinden.

Also in last official expansion, Evil Portents, was Sensei that allow to play full Shadowlands/Oni deck from every clan :

It bums me out that we never did find out who this guy was.

I would much prefer something like that sensei to a separate shadowlands faction.

i love so much that he's a crane. furthers my assertion that crane were always the shadowlands/spiders' best recruiting ground

But... what about all the great bloodspeakers from... *looks to make sure Shiba Gunichi isn't looking* ....Phoenix, they have been very solid providers of the mahos and the crazies!

As a Hantei, even Daigotsu has Crane blood from most of the Hantei taking Crane brides. And don't forget Yajinden.

And Rekai.

don't forget my boy Shimekiri!

and yeah, the phoenix contributed, but the thing there is they mostly just went evil, whereas the Crane tended to be actual spider clan (or shadowlands) members. we love our nefarious fire chicken friends, but the cranes really have been excellent recruiting ground for us.

And Rekai.

don't forget my boy Shimekiri!

I was speaking mostly to powerful maho-tsukai, but yeah all Crane/ex-Crane.

We forgetting my friend Daigotsu Misaki?

But... what about all the great bloodspeakers from... *looks to make sure Shiba Gunichi isn't looking* ....Phoenix, they have been very solid providers of the mahos and the crazies!

It's fine, we just had to clean up a bit.

I'd just as soon the Spider kept all that boring maho stuff in their little bin of spooky toys we all pretend to be scared by.

What difference does that make at all?? It doesn't!! It makes zero difference how long the spider were a playable faction before they became a great clan. You know why?? Because the spider have the players. More players than ANY OTHER CLAN in the game. I bet that really explodes your brain!

But great job on back-peddling on your ideals. You'd make a great politician.

This is my last answer to you, but this sums it all up.

I didn't say it matters. You did. So you're saying that what you say is senseless and pointless ? I agree. Your mind is chaos (and it's not a compliment), you can't make a logical argument, which makes it totally impossible to talk with you. Just stop jumping at other people's throats on this thread and keep silent then, you'll make yourself and others a favour. Bye, I'm not responding to you again, have fun.

Your quote:

I agree that the spider don't fit the setting as a great clan... but you know what??? The spider were a playable faction LONG before they were a great clan.

I think it can go for both faction types. I agree that the story rewards were weird in regards to both Shadowlands and Spider. They should have come up with better things, but I also know that the position in even offering different things to just one faction is a little awkward. So in that, I do see how having the spider as a playable faction is awkward because of this. I also believe that this can be fixed easily enough, though.

The spider becoming a great clan wrecked a lot of stuff for sure. I like that you are at least willing to live with it based on some certain criteria, but I believe this is where our opinions separate. You said they can be believable as a great clan if x,y, and z happens, but I'm of the opinion that if x,y, and, z happens, they cease to be the spider clan. This is really what bothers me about the spider becoming a great clan in the first place. You can't take x,y, and z away from the spider and expect the spider players to like it. And you can't really leave x,y, and z in the spider for everyone to believe the spider fit in the setting as a great clan. So the solution... take the great clan status away from the spider. The spider never should have been a great clan, imo. But like I said earlier in my posts, this wasn't a choice the players had. It was a no win choice for the spider players. And that is where AEG dropped the ball. So we were forced in to making the leap to great clanship. And as soon as that happened, everyone (like you, shineyorkboy) was saying that the spider shouldn't have x,y, and z. And that's where most of the arguments came from. And I believe that's why many players hate on the spider as much as they do. But you have to realize, the spider players really had no control over what happened. Most spider players want to play bad guys and the only way to do so was to play in to the choices presented to us. The whole thing was dumb, imo. The spider should have never been made in to a great clan. Even story related, I can't see how they thought this was a good idea in the long term. There were a lot of ways for the spider to manipulate the empire without being a great clan, but for some reason, AEG decided that being a great clan was the way for spider. No spider player wants x,y, and z taken away from them... those are the things in which people wanted to play spider in the first place.

Spider have to at least look like they're trying to reform and reintegrate into Rokugani society. Instead we basically got 'the Spider are unrepentantly evil and the rest of the Clans are politically obligated to deal with it' which was very unsatisfying and, as you said, incredibly stupid.

Ultimately I think it boils down to: if the Spider are going to be evil don't have them be a Great Clan, if they're going to be a Great Clan have them try, or at least pretend to try, to turn good. AEG tried to go half and half and it turned out horribly.

Also, just to be clear any hostility I feel or have felt for the Spider or any other incarnation of the forces of the Shadowlands has always been directed in setting and not toward the player base.

I think it can go for both faction types. I agree that the story rewards were weird in regards to both Shadowlands and Spider. They should have come up with better things, but I also know that the position in even offering different things to just one faction is a little awkward. So in that, I do see how having the spider as a playable faction is awkward because of this. I also believe that this can be fixed easily enough, though.

The spider becoming a great clan wrecked a lot of stuff for sure. I like that you are at least willing to live with it based on some certain criteria, but I believe this is where our opinions separate. You said they can be believable as a great clan if x,y, and z happens, but I'm of the opinion that if x,y, and, z happens, they cease to be the spider clan. This is really what bothers me about the spider becoming a great clan in the first place. You can't take x,y, and z away from the spider and expect the spider players to like it. And you can't really leave x,y, and z in the spider for everyone to believe the spider fit in the setting as a great clan. So the solution... take the great clan status away from the spider. The spider never should have been a great clan, imo. But like I said earlier in my posts, this wasn't a choice the players had. It was a no win choice for the spider players. And that is where AEG dropped the ball. So we were forced in to making the leap to great clanship. And as soon as that happened, everyone (like you, shineyorkboy) was saying that the spider shouldn't have x,y, and z. And that's where most of the arguments came from. And I believe that's why many players hate on the spider as much as they do. But you have to realize, the spider players really had no control over what happened. Most spider players want to play bad guys and the only way to do so was to play in to the choices presented to us. The whole thing was dumb, imo. The spider should have never been made in to a great clan. Even story related, I can't see how they thought this was a good idea in the long term. There were a lot of ways for the spider to manipulate the empire without being a great clan, but for some reason, AEG decided that being a great clan was the way for spider. No spider player wants x,y, and z taken away from them... those are the things in which people wanted to play spider in the first place.

Far be it for me to pass up an opportunity to call AEG dumb, because they were that quite a lot. As I said I personally wouldn't have made the Spider a Great Clan.

My comments were mostly from the point of view of 'assuming the decision to have the Spider become a Great Clan is set in stone how do you make that believable?' I can't help but think that for that to make any kind of narrative sense the

Spider have to at least look like they're trying to reform and reintegrate into Rokugani society. Instead we basically got 'the Spider are unrepentantly evil and the rest of the Clans are politically obligated to deal with it' which was very unsatisfying and, as you said, incredibly stupid.

Ultimately I think it boils down to: if the Spider are going to be evil don't have them be a Great Clan, if they're going to be a Great Clan have them try, or at least pretend to try, to turn good. AEG tried to go half and half and it turned out horribly.

Also, just to be clear any hostility I feel or have felt for the Spider or any other incarnation of the forces of the Shadowlands has always been directed in setting and not toward the player base.

Oh I get that. And I'm sure that is where most players agree with you about the spider. Including me.

The problem is that most spider player don't want the spider to change. In doing so will leave the spider not being spider. It would be like telling the crab that they don't have the job of guarding the wall anymore. Crab players would hate that! It's one of the many reasons you play crab in the first place, right? Or telling the Phoenix books are banned and they aren't allowed to read anymore. Or telling the Mantis that they have to give up all their boats and donate all their money to the poor. People love and chose their clans based on the clans core principles or styles. Spider's core principle was being the bad guy... the villain. That's why players love playing the spider. Take that away and spider players should have just picked a different clan in Rokugon to play... because that is what happens when you take the evil badness away from the spider. They have nothing of interest left to hold on to. Crab's whole thing is guarding the wall. Take that away and you get characters that can belong to any other clan out there. Same with taking away evil from spider. Spider players are then left with 'might as well play lion or something now since the spider is just like the rest of the empire.' Nothing stands out anymore if you take away what it means to be spider.

I know you don't have any animosity towards spider players. I know most people don't. I know it's geared more towards the clan than anything. The reason I keep bringing up player involvement is because I need you (and everyone else) to understand these things:

1) The spider players choice to become a great clan wasn't a choice really.

2) Most spider players don't want anything to change with their clan based on a choice they didn't really have in the first place.

3) Most spider players would rather keep the spider as the clan they chose to play than to change the clan in to something that isn't the spider.

So... while everyone keeps hating on the spider, it does become personal to the spider players. Our clan keeps getting hated on due to things out of control of the players. We truly wish we had never become a great clan. I can think of a million different ways the spider can accomplish its goals without becoming a great clan, but we got shoehorned in to it.

What difference does that make at all?? It doesn't!! It makes zero difference how long the spider were a playable faction before they became a great clan. You know why?? Because the spider have the players. More players than ANY OTHER CLAN in the game. I bet that really explodes your brain!

But great job on back-peddling on your ideals. You'd make a great politician.

This is my last answer to you, but this sums it all up.

I didn't say it matters. You did. So you're saying that what you say is senseless and pointless ? I agree. Your mind is chaos (and it's not a compliment), you can't make a logical argument, which makes it totally impossible to talk with you. Just stop jumping at other people's throats on this thread and keep silent then, you'll make yourself and others a favour. Bye, I'm not responding to you again, have fun.

Your quote:

I agree that the spider don't fit the setting as a great clan... but you know what??? The spider were a playable faction LONG before they were a great clan.

Oh god... you again?!?!?

Ummmm.... Talking about someone needing to learn how to read...

You said that the spider shouldn't be a playable faction cuz the spider shouldn't be a great clan. I said it doesn't need to be a great clan in order to be a playable faction and even gave proof that they were a playable faction even before they were a great clan. Then for some weird reason (that can only come from that infant-like brain) you wanted to know how long they were a playable faction before becoming a great clan. I said it doesn't matter how long, the fact that they were is the point in which I was making since you said that they shouldn't be playable if they weren't a great clan. Your whole entire argument is based on spider not being playable if they aren't a great clan. That argument is retarded.

But hey... I appreciate that you won't be bothering me or anyone else with your stupidity on the subject. Thank you much!

Oh I get that. And I'm sure that is where most players agree with you about the spider. Including me.

The problem is that most spider player don't want the spider to change. In doing so will leave the spider not being spider. It would be like telling the crab that they don't have the job of guarding the wall anymore. Crab players would hate that! It's one of the many reasons you play crab in the first place, right? Or telling the Phoenix books are banned and they aren't allowed to read anymore. Or telling the Mantis that they have to give up all their boats and donate all their money to the poor. People love and chose their clans based on the clans core principles or styles. Spider's core principle was being the bad guy... the villain. That's why players love playing the spider. Take that away and spider players should have just picked a different clan in Rokugon to play... because that is what happens when you take the evil badness away from the spider. They have nothing of interest left to hold on to. Crab's whole thing is guarding the wall. Take that away and you get characters that can belong to any other clan out there. Same with taking away evil from spider. Spider players are then left with 'might as well play lion or something now since the spider is just like the rest of the empire.' Nothing stands out anymore if you take away what it means to be spider..

I'll be mainly talking for myself as a Crab player, I will also not talk on behalf of every players of the Crab, because that would be wrong.

You're saying that telling that Crab don't have to guard the Wall anymore, would mean a great thing, because it would mean that the Crab Clan would have succeed their duty and are ready to achieve another duty, maybe going back on the offensive. Let's not forget that the Crab decided in the past to take back Shiro Hiruma... Although it was lost again, it was a great attempt.

The problem is very different though, the Crab Clan basically has the duty to defend something that will never end... Which means that this duty will always be there, unless cleaning the Shadowlands beyond the Wall is accomplished, which surely won't be achieved by the Crab Clan's alone, but that's another story. By doing this duty, the Crab Clan serves great services to the Empire, preventing a lot of creatures to reach Rokugan. Of course, every Crab players could decide to ignore the Wall and do something else, but it would hurt a lot the reputation of the Clan through the Empire. Sure, it's an eternal, and probably endless struggle, unless something big happen...

About the Spider, it's not the same, there's a lot of way to see the Spider Clan. One of them is by seeing them as antagonist of Rokugan, while it's a way of playing them, it's also a direction that may result its eradication. If this happened, It would also mean that the Clan would lose their Great Clan status anyway.

On my side, I prefer the vision of them being a kind of "Shadowland Refugee Clan" where they keep proving themselves being useful to the Empire while using non conventional ways and being tainted. Showing that the way of Fu Leng has some positive and deserve a place in the Empire. Display that sometime, fighting fire with fire is the best solution and worth something. Sure, that would diverge from the "Antagonist of Rokugan" idea, but it would keep the door open to use these dark powers, still creating tension between the Spider Clan with the rest of Rokugan, but ensure that the Clan will live on without an eradication, because antagonists in huge games like that are kinda destined to end up eradicated...

That's my 2 zenis though.

Oh I get that. And I'm sure that is where most players agree with you about the spider. Including me.

The problem is that most spider player don't want the spider to change. In doing so will leave the spider not being spider. It would be like telling the crab that they don't have the job of guarding the wall anymore. Crab players would hate that! It's one of the many reasons you play crab in the first place, right? Or telling the Phoenix books are banned and they aren't allowed to read anymore. Or telling the Mantis that they have to give up all their boats and donate all their money to the poor. People love and chose their clans based on the clans core principles or styles. Spider's core principle was being the bad guy... the villain. That's why players love playing the spider. Take that away and spider players should have just picked a different clan in Rokugon to play... because that is what happens when you take the evil badness away from the spider. They have nothing of interest left to hold on to. Crab's whole thing is guarding the wall. Take that away and you get characters that can belong to any other clan out there. Same with taking away evil from spider. Spider players are then left with 'might as well play lion or something now since the spider is just like the rest of the empire.' Nothing stands out anymore if you take away what it means to be spider..

I'll be mainly talking for myself as a Crab player, I will also not talk on behalf of every players of the Crab, because that would be wrong.

You're saying that telling that Crab don't have to guard the Wall anymore, would mean a great thing, because it would mean that the Crab Clan would have succeed their duty and are ready to achieve another duty, maybe going back on the offensive. Let's not forget that the Crab decided in the past to take back Shiro Hiruma... Although it was lost again, it was a great attempt.

The problem is very different though, the Crab Clan basically has the duty to defend something that will never end... Which means that this duty will always be there, unless cleaning the Shadowlands beyond the Wall is accomplished, which surely won't be achieved by the Crab Clan's alone, but that's another story. By doing this duty, the Crab Clan serves great services to the Empire, preventing a lot of creatures to reach Rokugan. Of course, every Crab players could decide to ignore the Wall and do something else, but it would hurt a lot the reputation of the Clan through the Empire. Sure, it's an eternal, and probably endless struggle, unless something big happen...

Ok... I wasn't talking specific reasons as to why the crab doesn't guard the wall anymore. It was more of a generalization. But let's just say for hypothetical reasons, the crab no longer guard the wall. That's their biggest thing. That's what it means to be a crab. Their backbone of the setting. Let's just say that they don't have that job anymore. Like instead of the crab doing it, the empire felt the badger clan could do it better. Or that the Phoenix cast a blanket force field around the empire that nothing can penetrate. Or whatever the reason. But take that away from the crab and they have nothing that defines them.

Take away the evil of spider and there is nothing left that defines them. Being able to play the evil clan is what drew me and others in to playing them in the first place. Being the tough defenders of all things shadowlands is what defines the crab. Take that away and you have samurai with a crab mon and that's it.

People need to understand that spider players don't want the spider clan to change. People keep telling us that they have to change and it pisses us off. Of course we are going to fight you over it. Just like you would do if people kept telling you your clan needs to change what you like best about your clan. Simple as that.

Spider is supposed to be THE villain clan, not like Scorpion which have villians in them but really work to protect the throne by playing their part when the need is there.

Far be it for me to pass up an opportunity to call AEG dumb, because they were that quite a lot. As I said I personally wouldn't have made the Spider a Great Clan.

My comments were mostly from the point of view of 'assuming the decision to have the Spider become a Great Clan is set in stone how do you make that believable?' I can't help but think that for that to make any kind of narrative sense the

Spider have to at least look like they're trying to reform and reintegrate into Rokugani society. Instead we basically got 'the Spider are unrepentantly evil and the rest of the Clans are politically obligated to deal with it' which was very unsatisfying and, as you said, incredibly stupid.

Honestly, the Spider, as a great clan, did a freaking ton to integrate into rokugan. If we examine everything from Emperor to Twenty Festivals (Thunderous Acclaim and on if forced Onyx bull) we can see the Spider were pretty much integrating well enough.
The Chuda were not only gone, but being actively hunted by the Spider.
The Tainted were solely confined to the colonies and far from the empires boarders.
The Monks were becoming wide spread and beloved by the peasantry.
The new generation of Spider bushi were staying untainted and followed the basic rules of Rokugani society.
The Susumu were growing and playing the same political game as the other clans.

The Spider hunting the Kolat and working with the Scorpion to put down the traitors

The Spider were seeking allies to hunt down and kill the Dark Oracle of Fire himself to end his evil once and for all.

In fact the only outright evil thing that WASNT being accounted for by the official agreements between Iweko and the Spider were the Goju and Ninube which were, like the scorpion's ninja, always hidden away so they were pretty irrelevant. Even the worship of Dark Fortunes and Daigotsu has some backing by the phoenix and was allowed to an extent. I don't really see where they needed to "change" more to be a great clan?

Ultimately I think it boils down to: if the Spider are going to be evil don't have them be a Great Clan, if they're going to be a Great Clan have them try, or at least pretend to try, to turn good. AEG tried to go half and half and it turned out horribly.

The bolded seems to confuse me... What do you mean by "good"? I'm not being sarcastic or antagonistic but the concept of what we would call good is something very few clans can really claim to be.

Lion are ideological zealots that brutally control the peasantry, are obsessively warmongering, and almost genocidal. Just look at them during Ivory edition, where their champion literally sent out a public letter telling the clans that if they support Shiabatsu the Lion will outright kill them, then started a completely illegal war of succession in the colonies, leading other traditional clans into their illegal army and causing wide spread war.

Crane created and maintain a culture entirely designed to give them every advantage possible, all based on their terms and in most was deliberately unfair and created a legal system of assassination, through dueling, and train their greatest and most skilled for that very purpose. Then, when the going gets rough they resort to illegal weapons like Gunpowder.

Mantis are literally drunk pirates who only became a clan because they took the most universe defining moment, when the empire literally was on the knife's edge and proceeded to threaten and hold the empire at ransom, then got lucky because their hero actually became a god and solidified their position................wait that sounds WAY too much like Goddess 4 and the founding of the spider clan... *intense moment of realization*

Crab are complete pragmatists so far to the point that they resort to slavery, black market dealings, thuggish political tactics, and outright war crime level nonsense to support their fight against the shadowlands.

Scorpion, when they aren't saving the empire, are outright manipulators using gossips, espionage, blackmail, assassination, poison, and even motherflipping ninja.

If you excuse the few villains like Chagatai, Shahai, Hitomi, Kokujin, and the various blood speakers here or there the Unicorn, Dragon, and Phoenix, all three built of the virtues of Sincerity, Wisdom and Knowledge are the closest we come to "Good Guys" in L5R. The other clans are HONORABLE and LOYAL to the throne of course, but any objective outside view would really struggle to flat out call these clans "good".

So when someone says the Spider need to become "good", my response is what do they think when they imagine "good". Spider, during its stint as a Great Clan, kept its side of the bargain, did its job properly and Kanpeki was legitamently loyal to the strong Empress he served. Hell the three major wars they got involved in , the lion conflict, the Crab war and the ideological conflict THEY weren't even the aggressors. The crab has to accuse the Spider of running a black market and come up with anything they could, twist any law or statement, to allow them to war with the Spider. The irony of a Yatsuki accusing anyone of black market dealings shouldn't be lost on us all here. Their position among the clans was one where they favored their allies and simply steered clear of their enemies.

The "evil" people call them out on is the tainted... but the tainted aren't running around giving everyone the middlefinger as they eat babies, they are serving and dying on the front lines of the currently most active and dangerous warzone in the empire, the jungles. They summon the dead to fight for them, oh no... its not like the Lion have been doing that since... well, forever...

The Spider are pretty much the mirror opposites of the Lion. They have Shourido instead of Bushido, summon zombies instead of ghosts, don't provoke conflict vs warmongering... Spider basically are at one of the rare moments when they COULD exist. The nature of the deal with Daigotsu allows for them to pretty much allow the Spider to exist as a great clan. With the Taint no longer contagious the Spider's tainted weren't pariahs, just exiles earning a future for themselves while their untainted children seek power and opportunity in the normal empire.

I see little need to change them up more. Kanpeki wasn't trying anything that the other clans weren't already doing, Spider just do it more villainously. Not to say that Spider cant have morally good characters, in fact some of the best ones are like Daigotsu Arakan and Susumu Naishi, characters that serve their clan loyally but seek more for those they care about and have hopes and dreams beyond their villainy.

On my side, I prefer the vision of them being a kind of "Shadowland Refugee Clan" where they keep proving themselves being useful to the Empire while using non conventional ways and being tainted. Showing that the way of Fu Leng has some positive and deserve a place in the Empire.

They pretty much were, in every way.... The story of Arakan is the example of a lion, tainted and expected to Seppuku , who joins the spider to forge a future for himself, and does. Their tainted and Shourido teachings are very non conventional yet at the same time proved their tremendous use to the empire by conquering the colonies for the empire to gain their much needed resources. The way of Fu-leng may be dead but the deal with Daddy-D has allowed the empire to enter a tremendous period of prosperity and peace with the Dark fortunes being allowed worship and even explorations into their uses and favors were being considered.

Again, I'm wondering where the "change" needs to be. They were pretty much at the point your looking for based on your criteria? Again, not antagonistic, more curious then anything else.

*Edit: I would add to this that the problems of the Spider Great Clan I feel had less to do with the Spider's position in the empire but the nature of Daigotsu's ascension, the way the deal functioned, the implications on the story going forward and how the aftermath was handled from the destroyer war... but that is a talk for another day.

If you excuse the few villains like Chagatai, Shahai, Hitomi, Kokujin, and the various blood speakers here or there the Unicorn, Dragon, and Phoenix, all three built of the virtues of Sincerity, Wisdom and Knowledge are the closest we come to "Good Guys" in L5R. The other clans are HONORABLE and LOYAL to the throne of course, but any objective outside view would really struggle to flat out call these clans "good".

You can make a strong argument for saying that the Dragon Clan's passivity throughout the centuries, allowing others to suffer through plagues and madmen, also makes them wicked. I'm not sure I have anything for the Unicorn.

If you excuse the few villains like Chagatai, Shahai, Hitomi, Kokujin, and the various blood speakers here or there the Unicorn, Dragon, and Phoenix, all three built of the virtues of Sincerity, Wisdom and Knowledge are the closest we come to "Good Guys" in L5R. The other clans are HONORABLE and LOYAL to the throne of course, but any objective outside view would really struggle to flat out call these clans "good".

You can make a strong argument for saying that the Dragon Clan's passivity throughout the centuries, allowing others to suffer through plagues and madmen, also makes them wicked. I'm not sure I have anything for the Unicorn.

Yeah, I guess you could... hmm, I would discount it as just something all the other clans do, ignore the plights of the lesser people, but both the Scorpion and the Unicorn have a habit of actually caring for their peasants and helping them so yeah. My only comment on that is that its not their intention, merely the result of their distant philosophy... and also being a tool used by an immortal Kami to manipulate the empire In preparation for the day of doom. But its enough to count, I'm not trying to nit pick here after all.

But as for the Unicorn, they are pretty spot on. Their evils are mainly things that either are dragged in from other sources, like the kolat and Dark Moto, or are characters that individually go bad, like Chags, Shahai and the like.

To be fair, their entire gimmick is that they are the "kind and compassionate" Kami's clan and thus that shows. Naleesh was quite literally a paragon of virtue in the tussle with the phoenix and even made friends with Kanpeki and gave him, the literal son of the devil, a chance to be more then a monster.

When being a clan of nice guys is so unusual its an actual factor of differentiation... well, you have rokugan I guess lol