Personally, I've always been a fan of the infectious, insidious taint. It provides a horror element that I really enjoy, and I always felt that changing the taint into something that is only voluntary takes a certain.. edge away from it. But I have always felt that Tragedy (with a capital t) always has a place of prominence in any samurai story, and doing your best to beat back the dark tide and finding yourself slowly succumb to it yourself despite your best efforts is just pure gold for any samurai tale.

It's also easy enough to avoid... You just don't include this one single element of the game. I mean, if you are playing something like HOR or some other sort of pre-written adventures than it's a bit more difficult, but if you really don't like dealing with the Taint it should be something you bring up to the GM when you guys are talking about the Pitch before play begins.

The problem is the main goal of the Spider Clan as a Great Clan. With the direction of AEG storyline, the Spider Clan was surely going to get dissolved with Kanpeki's idea to assault the Throne. But this is pure hypothesis since that storyline isn't really official. However, it needs a clearer direction to stay as a Great Clan. The Spider Clan cannot keep their Great Clan status if they keep the idea of "We're the Evil of Rokugan!", at some point, it loses credibility.

It's been discussed a while back and I would prefer if the Spider Clan would be a redeeming Clan, where the Tainted Samourai joined up to prove that being tainted doesn't mean it's over. This would also allow some struggles to resist the temptation to let themselves falls more into the Taint and lose completely their senses. If the Spider Clan goes this way, yes that would be a way to keep them. However, a Great Clan filled with Shadowland creatures with the objectif of killing Rokugan doesn't fit.

Similar ideas have been floated and I think the Spider as a clan of flagellants and foreign legionnaires with an uncomfortably close relationship to Jigoku has a place in the setting. I also think there should not be a ‘The Villains Always And Forever In Every Edition’ faction. So, in my view, there would need to be a change in the Spider Clan playerbase's mindset with the realization that they'd be a part of an ensemble, not a perennial vehicle for the next “HOLY ****” moment that has recently become a substitute for good storytelling. FFG would also need to learn from AEG to not so regularly give people good at card games an opportunity to blow the story up. Another important thing would be to reduce the virality of the Taint and Shadow in the setting, making them dangerous but ultimately resistible. This would have the added benefit of further reducing John Wick's influence on L5R, since these spiritual maladies were basically formulated by him as tools for a GM to punish, kill and take away his players' characters on a whim. That **** is not welcome.

Okay, I guess I unloaded some baggage there, but one final thing: An excellent thing the Spider Clan's playerbase brings to the table, which I find worthy of high praise, is the kind of belligerence that makes inter-clan conflicts possible to maintain on the tournament scene. Unlike the other clans, they're probably not going to pick the story prize most likely to end wars/create lasting friendships between clans.

I could agree with some of that IF any other clan could also be removed and/or changed drastically. Lion, Crab, Crane, Phoenix, Dragon, etc.

For me, what makes L5R interesting is the emphasis on honor. Your life belongs to your lord. Only your honor is your own.

In that light, playable shadowlands has always felt out of place to me. Let every clan, every deck, use shadowlands (or not) as honor dictates and deal with what that means.

On the other hand, if Spider is presented with some nuance, and as another great clan who, ideally but not always in practice, serves the emperor in its own way (not its own emperor, or the empire), that'd be fine with me.

Align them with the other great clans, in terms of each presenting a unique perspective on honor, and they're a much better fit in the setting.

Doesn't really solve the problem of serving 9 factions, which is a logistics issue, but it would satisfy me thematically.

Personally, I've always been a fan of the infectious, insidious taint. It provides a horror element that I really enjoy, and I always felt that changing the taint into something that is only voluntary takes a certain.. edge away from it. But I have always felt that Tragedy (with a capital t) always has a place of prominence in any samurai story, and doing your best to beat back the dark tide and finding yourself slowly succumb to it yourself despite your best efforts is just pure gold for any samurai tale.

I could agree with some of that IF any other clan could also be removed and/or changed drastically. Lion, Crab, Crane, Phoenix, Dragon, etc.

I agree all the clans should be up for discussion, but most, if not all, have an obvious path to "fitting" into the setting in a way that Spider doesn't. They just don't have 20 years of material (as a clan) to draw on to find that fit, so it's a bit more difficult.

The other clans you can look at and say, "Well, arcs 1-3, some of 7 and 8, and all of 9 really showcase the essence of this clan." And use that as your foundation.

(Mantis suffers a bit here as well, in fairness.)

the problem i have with that argument is that while the other clans have been around longer, in most cases they are in no way demonstrably better defined narratively. not to poke a sleeping giant here, but honestly the phoenix, crane, dragon and lion are all kind of interchangeable. duelists, shugenja, samurai, monks. honorable, imperial blah blah. which sure is rokugan's way, but theres no one element to any of those clans that isn't duplicated in one or two of the others. thats not even getting into the fact that they've all gone through basically the same historical events (the dragon are _slightly_ better off here, but only marginally). the scorpion and the unicorn and the mantis are the only clans that have significantly unique histories and mechanics besides the spider. if you were serious about streamlining the clans, the most narratively sensible thing to do would be to remove the overlapping portions by combining the "stock" rokugan clans.

but, to be clear, i'm not advocating that, because at the end of the day thats not what l5r is about. its not about making the most streamlined game. l5r is a story, a history, and you can't just chop out those factions because theres a lot of similar elements or because you don't like duelists or whatever reason.

thats what really frustrates me about this thread, which is supposed to be whats fun about l5r. you know whats not fun about l5r? being a fan of a faction that a substantial portion of the rest of the fanbase assumes is less worthy of inclusion for specious reasons.

With the Phoenix I was mostly referring to their uselessness when it comes to provide interesting or even original story elements. I mean, most Clans tend to struggle with this, but oh boy the Phoenix is a true wasteland. They have generic wizards and their generic bodyguards, plus some special snowflake monks... too bad everyone else has these too to some point. You might, like, raise a point that the Phoenix watches over spiritual purity and all that stuff (when they aren't doing the exact opposite), but then you have the Black Watch and the Kuni Witch Hunters who do the same thing but while being cool and flavorful. If FFG culled the Phoenix, nothing of value would be lost - you could most likely build a perfect Phoenix stand-in deck using Crane, Dragon, or Scorpion (or Spider ).

Much like the Mantis, my favorite faction was seldom allowed to show why we liked them by story choices-coupled with Phoenix decks often being absolute crap anytime we actually had stuff we wanted to win!

The Phoenix have a lot to offer- and it was almost never picked up on in the story. Most of my love of the Phoenix is based upon RPG background data- they were basically absent from the end of Samurai until the bitter end,sometimes showing up to do things that were either boneheaded or boring.

Not really the place for a detailed or impassioned defense of any clan (and I should perhaps clarify that I have no beef with the Spider- I still drop by Shinden Fu Leng from time to time- but the fanbase as a whole doesn't seem to share my tolerance), but I felt I should mention that your appraisal is a bit shallow when it comes to Los Pollos del Fuego.

You sound like you don't like Wick's influence on l5r? Can you detail that more? Curious.

The man is creative, but he also had some ideas about storytelling and roleplaying that bled through in his writing and into the setting itself. The example I provided of the Taint illustrates this quite well. According to the lore, it is infectious and unrelenting, consuming even the toughest, most resolute samurai and turning them mad (i.e. an NPC) or killing them (and reanimating them as an NPC). The principle is that he is telling a story and the PCs are just living in it. There are some who could be described as movers and shakers, but the PCs are not them. Indeed, the lot of PCs is to live tragic lives and the Taint is one of many things the GM has to bring that about. Player agency is not something I've seen him care about, is what I'm saying.

Here's also a writeup about Way of the Scorpion that's both funny and insightful, which goes into some detail on Wick's attitude (well, disdain) towards Bushido. I recommend looking at it.

I could agree with some of that IF any other clan could also be removed and/or changed drastically. Lion, Crab, Crane, Phoenix, Dragon, etc.

Okay, but how each clan could be revisited is itself a separate discussion and has no bearing on the Spider or vice versa, except maybe insofar as they influence each other.

not to poke a sleeping giant here, but honestly the phoenix, crane, dragon and lion are all kind of interchangeable. duelists, shugenja, samurai, monks. honorable, imperial blah blah. which sure is rokugan's way, but theres no one element to any of those clans that isn't duplicated in one or two of the others.

The guy doesn't grasp the difference between the Phoenix, the Crane, the Dragon and the Lion... Can anyone answer anything to that ?

thats what really frustrates me about this thread, which is supposed to be whats fun about l5r. you know whats not fun about l5r? being a fan of a faction that a substantial portion of the rest of the fanbase assumes is less worthy of inclusion for specious reasons.

'Specious reasons' is not an objective fact, it's an opinion. The fact the Spider (as it is right now) doesn't really fit in the setting, for some of us (many of us ?), is also an opinion, but is not a specious reason. Stop being condescending on what other people think of the Spider, then maybe you'll start to understand. Or maybe you're not mature enough to understand that in this life if you want to act clever it is needed and a strenght to be able to understand things although you don't agree with them ?

not to poke a sleeping giant here, but honestly the phoenix, crane, dragon and lion are all kind of interchangeable. duelists, shugenja, samurai, monks. honorable, imperial blah blah. which sure is rokugan's way, but theres no one element to any of those clans that isn't duplicated in one or two of the others.

The guy doesn't grasp the difference between the Phoenix, the Crane, the Dragon and the Lion... Can anyone answer anything to that ?

LOL that's like saying the clases of D&D are all the same!

It's curious for me how the newcomer we-are-the-bad-guys-but-cool faction has so hardcore fanbase. Their cards were nice looking though.

It would be cool that one or two factions were "exiled" every cycle of packs, then returning and other one leaving for a while, depending on tournament results.

not to poke a sleeping giant here, but honestly the phoenix, crane, dragon and lion are all kind of interchangeable. duelists, shugenja, samurai, monks. honorable, imperial blah blah. which sure is rokugan's way, but theres no one element to any of those clans that isn't duplicated in one or two of the others.

The guy doesn't grasp the difference between the Phoenix, the Crane, the Dragon and the Lion... Can anyone answer anything to that ?

You gotta admit, there isn't that much difference between these. They are generic samurai with some (often overlapping) gimmicks, with the Phoenix suffering the worst because their gimmicks are all overlapping with the others'. Then we have the Crab and the Scorpion further down the scale, being slightly different because of their specialized gimmicks, the Unicorn and the Mantis being rather different because they have differing themes, and finally the Spider being truly different because... well... they are the Spider.

Hell, as far as I can tell, people have a problem with the Spider specifically because they stand out and have special snowflake stuff that is really special and not just a re-skinned version of someone else's special snowflake stuff. And this is also the reason why the Spider could get such a strong fanbase within such a small time.

When you say these clans are not much different, I'm assuming you mean in terms of gameplay? Or in the fluff?

Because in both cases, I hardly see how you find them all that much alike.

You gotta admit, there isn't that much difference between these. They are generic samurai with some (often overlapping) gimmicks, with the Phoenix suffering the worst because their gimmicks are all overlapping with the others'.

Nope I don't (admit or agree). Based on what you are saying, Scorpions are also generic samurai, nothing really sets them apart from the others clans we're talking about. Now the Crab, they are generic samurai but that hundreds of years of mainly doing war has changed into more military-oriented and brutal samurai ! Wow amazing originality !

The conclusion, and I'm only whispering it because I don't want other players to hear it, it's a well-guarded secret : this game is about samurais ! Believe me, it's true.

Now maybe I should warn you that the biggest difference between the clans may not be what you're looking for, since they are all part of the same culture : Rokugan. So yea, they do share a lot, good job Sherlock. But their philosophies, their focus, their way to see things, to do things, their assets, are really very very very different.

thats what really frustrates me about this thread, which is supposed to be whats fun about l5r. you know whats not fun about l5r? being a fan of a faction that a substantial portion of the rest of the fanbase assumes is less worthy of inclusion for specious reasons.

You know that having this kind of discussion is something great, because it shows the passion that people have in the game. Because, you know... it's just a game at the end. So being able to discuss about that, is very fun.

I could agree with some of that IF any other clan could also be removed and/or changed drastically. Lion, Crab, Crane, Phoenix, Dragon, etc.

I would like to understand what you mean by this? Because in a way, some did changed drastically. For example, the Lion during the Clan War when the Akodo got disbanded, this is, to me, a huge change in the Lion clan, until they were back in the clan.

In my post, I was simply saying that the "Great Clan Status" of the Spider Clan doesn't make sense. I have nothing against an "Association of the Evil Spider of Doom" faction being a constant playable faction like every clan. It's really just about the Great Clan status... Let's not forget that the only real reason that the Spider Clan received the Great Clan status was because Daigotsu accepted to become the ruler of the Jigoku to stop the spread of the Shadowland taint and the touch of evil in the mortal world. Sure Daigotsu also accepted it in exchange of the fact that Kanpeki shall also be the next Emperor. But the story was going against Kanpeki ascension to the Divine rank of Emperor.

Each Great Clan has a purpose in the Empire, each except the Spider Clan. This is why I think that, in order to the Spider Clan to keep their Great Clan status, there's a change needed to the Clan or become a non-Great Clan but still playable.

I cannot speak for every Clans, but I can say that I was surprised and proud by the loyalty of the Crab Clan in the last decision. I really thought that because there was a choice to "fight fire with fire" by accepting to help the Spider Clan and turn our back to the Clan's endless fight at the Wall. Yet, the Clan choose to keep fighting against the Jigoku and to protect the Throne. With this in the mindset of the Crab player, it's hard to see why the Crab Clan should lose their Great Clan status...

I'll agree that the Crab Clan should have lost their Great Clan status after their alliance with the Shadowland during the Clan War, in order to get their hand of the Throne, I guess that since the Clan War occured when there was no Emperor and the fact that the Crab realligned themselves into their role, it was the reason that they didn't lose their Great Clan status.

So yeah, in the end, I'm only speaking about the Great Clan status of the setting... I'm not talking about the Card game, I'm not talking about the RPG mechanics, I'm simply speaking about the setting. And that's why I think that the Spider Clan, in order to keep their Great Clan status, are in a situation of a need of a change. Like I've said, if they were a redeeming Clan for the Tainted Samourai who wants to display that he still worth something despite his struggle with the Taint. It is an interesting concept and, in the same time, will give a purpose to the Spider Clan as a Great Clan. To preserve the integrity of the Tainted Samourai. Because of the nature of Rokugan, the relation between the Spider Clan and the other Great Clan would probably stay the same, since the other Great Clan would think that they would betray the Emperor. However, if the Spider Clan, as a Great Clan, wants to fullfil their purpose, even by following the shourido, they shall keep their attitude, except the "We are the Evil of Rokugan", which is the only thing that doesn't make sense by staying a Great Clan. This doesn't mean they won't have any conflicts, in fact, every Clans have conflits with another Clan...

So as for the Card Game, I don't know what will be FFG direction about the Spider Clan, but I think that the Spider Clan shall remain, as a Great Clan or not, but they shall remain a playable faction. The only difference shall be their role in the game.

When you say these clans are not much different, I'm assuming you mean in terms of gameplay? Or in the fluff?

Mostly fluff. Gameplay... depends. The CCG gets the short end of the stick because of the even stronger overlapping thankfully to shared game mechanics, but I think the RPG is cool and the RPG mechanics set apart the Clans fairly well.

The conclusion, and I'm only whispering it because I don't want other players to hear it, it's a well-guarded secret: this game is about samurais !

Well, but there should be a bigger difference between these samurai than the convenient color-coding and some (often shared) philosophical/behavioral differences. As it now stands, the average Shiba wearing teal clothing is largely indistinguishable from the average Doji or Kakita.

This isn't necessary a problem of course, but something worth pointing out.

Well, from what I remember in the art, most Phoenix bushi wear the traditional know, while Crane bushi have a tendency to keep thier hair long, and a lot of them dye it white, when it's not their natural color.

Dragons in huge numbers shave their head and arbor tattoos you don't see in other clans.

Lions, when not following tradition, also color their hair, being it blonde, or red, depending on the family.

Unicorn carry their hair like their clothing, with a more oriental style, an heritage from their trip out of Rokugan.

Crabs tend to be gruffier and badly shaven.

Scorpions always (except Yojiro) wear a mask.

Mantis bushi often wear a bandana or something similar on their hair, and are more often than not well-tanned thanks to their trips on the sea.

Now, I'm pretty sure AEG's art director (Adrian Burton?) could describe even better the visual identity of each Clan, but I think saying samurai from all clans look all too similar seems to be an exaggeration.

I'm not even addressing each clan's interpretation of Bushido, or each clan's favored magic...

Of course, in the couple last months of the CCG, it seemed bland, but I guess it was not called the force-reduction edition for nothing...

I'm pretty sure that interpretation of Bushido (or spell preference) and fashion sense differ between samurai and samurai in the very same clan. And we are still trying to get something out of surface things: so a Kuni does not only have to wear red but also have to have a mask to blend into the Yogo or the Soshi... wow .

Ok, so what would you want? If colors, looks, clan mons and pretty anything visual cannot be used, and we couldn't use interpretation of bushido or any trait of character caanot be seen as clan-wide, but dependent from each character?

How would you make a difference between members of different clans?

Ok, so what would you want? If colors, looks, clan mons and pretty anything visual cannot be used, and we couldn't use interpretation of bushido or any trait of character caanot be seen as clan-wide, but dependent from each character?

How would you make a difference between members of different clans?

It's just like that time in Transformers when they created an automobile looking decepticon and then gave the Autobots jet plane looking ones. Totally couldn't figure out which one was which and in the end they all became friends when I played with the toys.

Seriously though, I always thought that each Clan had it's own distinct feel and place in the game. Sure there was some overlap in EVERY clan at some point and time, but you could almost always count on them doing something better than the other clans that wasn't their main focus.

I can hardly imagine the nightmare it would mean in design if every clan had its own mechanics that were not shared with any other clan...

If Cavalry had been Unicorn only,

If Ranged attacks had been Mantis- or Naga-only

If Monks had been Dragon-only

If Shugenja and spells had been Phoenix-only

If Duels had been restricted to Crane

If having more than 4 force had been restricted to Crab

If dishonoring a personality had been restricted to Scorpion

If Tactician was restricted to Lion

It would be pretty harsh to design neutral cards having none of those effects...

Simple: different demeanor played straight consistently through each family. "Played straight" and "consistently" are the key words here. There shouldn't be two families that "feel" the same - every one should have its own stick, based on the Clan theme. This would of course require a massive revamp of the entire setting, and I'm fairly sure that the end result wouldn't look like the canon Rokugan at all.

Example:

Phoenix Clan. Clan theme is being arrogant and doing/saying interesting/magical things all the time; the pacifistic undercurrent goes with "peace through superior firepower" and "if you want peace then prepare for war" because true honest-to-goodness pacifism is reserved for the Asahina. The Shiba are full-on warrior-scholars who just can't shut up because they know better than everyone else in every topic period, and listening to them is a pain because they talk about all sorts of stuff you have never even heard about. The Isawa are shameless super-wizards who apply magic to literally every problem because they are the bestests of the best wizards, so why not, and it is not like they will listen to you anyway. The Asako are self-absorbed nerds, living in the shadow of the Shiba and the Isawa, but they are cool with it because all they want is to nerd in their libraries and contemplate over extra-nerdy stuff.

Then compare this to the Crane. Their Clan theme is sophistication, narcissism, and excess, a volatile combination of traits that produces a whole Clan of dangerous top-tier drama queens. We have the Doji, where everyone is obsessed with being the most special snowflake in written history, and they will do everything to prove their special-ness - they just won't meld into the crowd but stick out like a colorful bird-of-paradise in a hen farm. The Kakita cuts through being special by overdoing everything with the greatest degree of finesse achievable, simply sticking out by merit rather than by trying like the Doji. The Asahina are the truest pacifists of all Rokugan and the softest too. The Daidoji are the cheaters, who show off by going against the theme and effectively being that bad boy in the good family, but it is just their way to express themselves and they are willingly fall into the usual traps of the clan... the just do it by being bad the whole time.

So on and so forth... Once you have everyone nailed own like this you can hand out the more generic attributes like the Shiba being subservient to the Isawa or the Daidoji being bad to protect their Clan. At that point, all these elements will just ride shotgun to provide some flavor while the main characterization takes the driver seat (now it is quite the opposite tbh).

i think perhaps my choice of words was excessively nuanced. i said "interchangeable" very specifically. the point i was trying to make was that simplifying the story by removing spider is misguided, since theres far more overlap in those clan's themes and stories, which presents a better opportunity for simplification, if that is one's supposed goals. which isn't to say that i don't agree, somewhat, that the clans don't have a differentiation problem sometimes. but not to the degree that is being implied.

mechanically is a whole other problem. i absolutely think most of those clans suffer from vanilla design. scorpion focus on dishonor, unicorn on cav, mantis on economy and naval. but especially in recent years these distinctions have been diluted. crab got economy, and cav got weakened dramatically. the worst victims of this are lion, phoenix, dragon and crane, who are basically red, blue, yellow and green versions of "duelists, shugs, monks, courtiers, samurai: pick three" with no other mechanically interesting qualities layered on top of that. crane is the exception that proves the rule in so much as they have courtiers where the others don't. everyone else shares a theme with at least one if not two or three others. as of emperor you can also throw crab in there.

thats what really frustrates me about this thread, which is supposed to be whats fun about l5r. you know whats not fun about l5r? being a fan of a faction that a substantial portion of the rest of the fanbase assumes is less worthy of inclusion for specious reasons.

You know that having this kind of discussion is something great, because it shows the passion that people have in the game. Because, you know... it's just a game at the end. So being able to discuss about that, is very fun.

I could agree with some of that IF any other clan could also be removed and/or changed drastically. Lion, Crab, Crane, Phoenix, Dragon, etc.

I would like to understand what you mean by this? Because in a way, some did changed drastically. For example, the Lion during the Clan War when the Akodo got disbanded, this is, to me, a huge change in the Lion clan, until they were back in the clan.

In my post, I was simply saying that the "Great Clan Status" of the Spider Clan doesn't make sense. I have nothing against an "Association of the Evil Spider of Doom" faction being a constant playable faction like every clan. It's really just about the Great Clan status... Let's not forget that the only real reason that the Spider Clan received the Great Clan status was because Daigotsu accepted to become the ruler of the Jigoku to stop the spread of the Shadowland taint and the touch of evil in the mortal world. Sure Daigotsu also accepted it in exchange of the fact that Kanpeki shall also be the next Emperor. But the story was going against Kanpeki ascension to the Divine rank of Emperor.

Each Great Clan has a purpose in the Empire, each except the Spider Clan. This is why I think that, in order to the Spider Clan to keep their Great Clan status, there's a change needed to the Clan or become a non-Great Clan but still playable.

To be fair, Among Sparrows DOES set some concept of the Spider's greater purpose as a Great Clan. In fact, I blame Among Sparrows for the majority of the Spider Clan's rise to popularity among fans and the fanfare surrounding Kanpeki, since it puts him in such an underdog style light. Its made Kanpeki one of the most interesting potential villains in Rokugan history, since we were able to see his rise and his perspective of his place in the empire and the scale of his role in the story from the beginning and developing over the years.

“The Empress accepts your devotion, Daigotsu Kanpeki,” the Voice of the Empress said, looking down at the kneeling form of the newly-appointed Spider Clan Champion. “You will serve the Empire by fulfilling the Spider’s purpose in the Colonies. Bring the untamed lands under the rule of Rokugan. Conquer in her name.” It was the written purpose of the Spider Clan, spoken aloud as a charge to the Champion. He was now the equal to others that held that title, and his clan was one more step towards their place.

They were conquerors, true and true. They were to clear away the foreign lands for the empire. But, eventually the colonies would be conquered and, just like clans like the Lion, they needed some place in society other then just fighting enemies.

“Would you depose the Empress?” Shikei asked, his manner losing its humor.

“Nonsense,” Kanpeki replied. “She is strong. At least the equal to my father, as he chose to parley with her rather than continue his war against her Empire. The clans serve her without hesitation.”

“Then you understand as you should,” Shikei said, taking a step towards the Spider Champion. “You serve a place in this Empire, just as the others do. Would the Lion not truly follow the Empress if she was dishonorable? The Crab, if she were corrupt? The Phoenix, if she were not wise? She is appointed by the Celestial Heavens, and they would obey, but in their hearts they would rebel.”

“We serve a strong Empress,” Kanpeki said, understanding. “But when the one on the Throne is not strong?”

“The Dragon have watched over your people, Kanpeki. We have taught them, shielded them as best we can from the other clans so that they can earn their place in the Empire. But we have never forgotten what they are. If you see weakness, you might attack the Iweko Dynasty. And then I suppose we will have to kill you,” Shikei answered, as casually if he were commenting on the weather.

It was strange to hear his friend say such a thing, but it should not have surprised him. The Dragon had spent a great deal of time understanding the Spider, and what they discussed now was simply the reality of the situation. A reality that the other clans did not wish to talk about - except to tie a noose around the Spider’s neck. Kanpeki considered the other man’s words for a moment and then nodded. “If you can,” he said, looking at his hands, “then I would have been a fool to do such a thing.” After a pause, he added, “We will never speak of this again. The Iweko Dynasty has our devotion, as it should be.”

It was fear, the Champion of the Spider Clan finally knew. Fear of the Spider that kept the Empress and her servants strong. Things were not so different from what they were years ago. If weakness gripped the Empire, if unworthiness sat upon the throne, Daigotsu’s children would sweep across the Empire. And fear of that day would keep them strong, or it would end them.

The Spider were feared, and it wasn't just a simple paranoia. Daigotsu as Dark Lord, two festering pits with one directly in the empire, and the insane powers of the tainted are like putting a knife to the throat of the empire, and the Onyx plot shows they were perfectly right about those fears.

The Spider were being given the purpose of being the executioners axe for the weak. Should the clans ever lose purpose and lower their guard, become weak and fat on the fruits of peace or devolve into infighting the Spider was the punishment for that weakness. If Onyx never happened and the story continued then Spider's role is simple, to conquer and rule a suedo empire of influence in the colonies with the other clans showing legitament fear of them. No one clan can take the throne while the other 8 stood against them and Kanpeki was the danger always present, the reminder to the clans of why they hold their loyalty to the emperors mighty enough to keep the spider in check respect.

It WAS a pretty well thought out role for the Spider, they were even situated in such a way that made the idea work. Their power was far from the throne, save for their emissaries, and their armies held the hidden power of the dark powers, but in a more restricted way. Clans can talk tough in the empire, far from the Spider, but in the colonies they were THE super power and were not to be messed with easily.

Kanpeki even, up until after gencon 2014, kept his focus and instead of the crazy evil plans and open war focused on working towards taking the throne in very clever ways, even manipulating a war of succession and an ideological crisis for the empire.

The criticism of the purpose though came from two sources though.

1. Crabs complained the "we serve until the emperor is weak" was too similar to the crab and Hida's oath to Hantei, the logic that led Kisada to act during the clan war. But to be fair, the crab community is so staunchly against having ANYTHING to do with the Shadowlands or being traitorous these days that it was more an archaic comment rather then a reality. On top of that, all clans would turn if they saw the opportunity, look at Chagtron and his winter march. The entire point of the scorpion is to keep that nonsense from happening... talking about the scorpion.

2. The Spider's "we are the fear that keeps the empire strong" felt too close to the Scorpion's goals set by Bayushi, to be the villains the other clans fought to keep their eyes on the scorpion instead of the emperor. They were the dark and evil ones that made the other clans nervous of a coup and... well one happened. Scorpion players complained that the spider was stepping on their toes and taking the limelight from their role, making them irrelevant. Indeed the Susumu alone were described as basically taking the scorpion's role as the untrusted and evil courtiers.

Spider's role of providing fear, in practice, could have been easily differentiated from the scorpion. The scorpion were always up to no good, but the Spider is an imposing threat at all times. The scorpion are political infighting embodied, a distraction to keep the eyes of the clans off the emperor, similar to the Otomo who would stir up trouble when things got to calm and the Lions ran out of practice dummies to scratch.

This one is easier to resolve, simply make Spider also get caught up in the scorpion's games and leave the Spider as an imposing threat in the distance, and I mean distance. The scorpion exist to do the dirty work of distracting the clans from seeing opportunities to oppose the emperor. Spider are the apocalypse waiting in the dark for the clans to grow too weak and become vulnerable. If the scorpion succeed a clan or two gets wreaked for a bit, or a hero is brought down to ruin, or two or more clans are pitted into relatively pointless wars, look at how the scorpion were pushing the crab into war with the spider... perfect example right there. If Spider succeeds then clans all lose and the heir of darkness reigns over the land, a very different and FAR worst consequence.

The Scorpion stand there and say "LOOK AT ME OR I'LL MESS YOU UP!" while the Spider sit far off to the side, looking to wipe everyone out should they in-fight too much. Its something I feel a lot of players mistake the two for.

The biggest issue would be if they evoked the Spider's imminent threat EVERY time they were mentioned and made them into a boogy man. Instead that threat, like the way it is portrayed in Among Sparrows, should be unspoken and even minimal during the reign of strong emperors. The Spider would need to be written in a way that moved them from the scorpion's spotlight, AEG needed to embrace the idea that they are not a court clan at heart and become more like an edgier evil Lion, where they serve quietly in peace time and are relevant in war. The majority of the Spider are in the flourishing colonies, they have less need to be in the center of attention or even relevant, they mostly find the drama of the mainland pointless anyway.

Let the Spider follow the ideas of WCIV and use the blood of the preserver to purify Otosan Uchi and, both with Kanpeki's homeland and the nearby costal cities given to the spider by the Mantis, let them become a clan known for supplying exotic goods into the empire and leave it at that. the Spider, from their lands deep in the jungle, supply countless resources. Every clan needs to do something in peace time, Spider's is their insane wealth from conquest. Not like the Unicorn or the mantis, who have money out the nose, but in resources and goods. In the colonies, deep in Spider lands far from the eyes of the second city, Spider could rule a tyrannical realm of enslaving the natives and forcing them to forge resources by undead task masters. Spider could retain its more sinister aspects in the colonies and then develop their non tainted into a more empire acceptable version in Otosan Uchi. While the other clans, mostly the traditionalists, might deeply hate the Spider, its place in the progressive alliance and its exotic goods would be enough to silent dissent in peace time. Then just leave them alone... like for real, leave the clan to settle and focus on other clans and stuff. After a year or two Spider would just become the norm for players. The tainted are sent to the colonies to aid in the conquering/ harvesting of the resources of the colonies, the Spider are left to their own devices deep in the jungles and in return the Spider flood the empire with exotic goods, filling the purses of their allies and enemies.

Bam, easy way to keep a great clan Spider. Spider players would enjoy it, as they have their ninja, their dark paragons, their cruelty, but the other clans could enjoy not having Spider shoved down their throats. They can print cool spiders cards and such without going to far or forcing them into the spotlight every now and then. When war comes to the colonies, THEN the tainted can be seen and enjoyed, when the story is focused more on the mainland the Susumu, monks, and untainted samurai are more relevant.

At least those are my thoughts. You don't need to completely change the core of the Spider just to make them work, just make a few adjustments and stick to the picture presented in Among Sparrows, as it was an amazing foundation.

^ All that . Just all of that. Among Sparrows, WCIV, such a HUGE time among the Spider fans. We really thought we were getting somewhere with what it was going to mean to be Spider. It was really crushing when not only did nothing come of Among Sparrows, which was canonical! but all the hard work our WCIV guys put in, and just nothing. super weak sauce.