while only doing this on the dojo.... i found point for point demo outshines almost every other option... sure 2 control dictors with an ids is good.. but its better with demo cuz now i get 40pts of other stuff...

do you limit yourself to a play style or tactic the majority of players should be ready to face? sure. the benefits of taking it are simply better than not.

I am also talking from a more competitive mindset. are there builds that can win without rhymer and/or demo.. sure.... regionals proved otherwise IIRC.

The question is, are you limiting yourself by always thinking of Demo as the option? If you only ever play demo can you say that you know how to play the other ships? How will not taking Demo affect how those ships are played? How would you ever know?

while only doing this on the dojo.... i found point for point demo outshines almost every other option... sure 2 control dictors with an ids is good.. but its better with demo cuz now i get 40pts of other stuff...

do you limit yourself to a play style or tactic the majority of players should be ready to face? sure. the benefits of taking it are simply better than not.

I am also talking from a more competitive mindset. are there builds that can win without rhymer and/or demo.. sure.... regionals proved otherwise IIRC.

The question is, are you limiting yourself by always thinking of Demo as the option? If you only ever play demo can you say that you know how to play the other ships? How will not taking Demo affect how those ships are played? How would you ever know?

Exactly! How do you know that the fleet you designed is the best competitive option if you didn't try other options? And point for point comparisons are useless without context, as different fleets/strategies value different things. For example, red-dice heavy fleet with a low bid (something I created as a personal challenge to fly a fleet without ISD or Motti ) will have a very limited use for a Demo.

limited or different?

Too many games I see demo become an initiator/magic missile to try and double tap something. sure maybe it trades points up and dies and you chalk that up to a win. the real threat is when your opponent keeps demo in the back of their fleet.... waiting.... to hunt down any ships that make out of the ISD barrages alive.

flanking demo is strong if you can leverage it and force your opponent into traps.....

patient hunter demo is soo much scarier as if done correctly your fleet will leave any ship it crosses at 2-3 pts and then demo just closes it out with no personal risk.

these discussions show up in everygame. when paragon came out people were complaining about rebels aces high list with unkillable fighters... then rhymer got discovered as the direct counter.

limited or different?

Too many games I see demo become an initiator/magic missile to try and double tap something. sure maybe it trades points up and dies and you chalk that up to a win. the real threat is when your opponent keeps demo in the back of their fleet.... waiting.... to hunt down any ships that make out of the ISD barrages alive.

flanking demo is strong if you can leverage it and force your opponent into traps.....

patient hunter demo is soo much scarier as if done correctly your fleet will leave any ship it crosses at 2-3 pts and then demo just closes it out with no personal risk.

these discussions show up in everygame. when paragon came out people were complaining about rebels aces high list with unkillable fighters... then rhymer got discovered as the direct counter.

Limited. If I'm trying to maximize the amount of red dices per point spent, Demo ends up pretty inefficient and the list is stronger with taking a VSD instead. And if something is at 2-3 hp, using Demo to finish it off is an overkill. It can be as easily killed by rear/side shots.

limited or different?

Too many games I see demo become an initiator/magic missile to try and double tap something. sure maybe it trades points up and dies and you chalk that up to a win. the real threat is when your opponent keeps demo in the back of their fleet.... waiting.... to hunt down any ships that make out of the ISD barrages alive.

flanking demo is strong if you can leverage it and force your opponent into traps.....

patient hunter demo is soo much scarier as if done correctly your fleet will leave any ship it crosses at 2-3 pts and then demo just closes it out with no personal risk.

these discussions show up in everygame. when paragon came out people were complaining about rebels aces high list with unkillable fighters... then rhymer got discovered as the direct counter.

Limited. If I'm trying to maximize the amount of red dices per point spent, Demo ends up pretty inefficient and the list is stronger with taking a VSD instead. And if something is at 2-3 hp, using Demo to finish it off is an overkill. It can be as easily killed by rear/side shots.

Spinal Armament VSD's with Imperial Light Cruisers may become a very nice Hammer and anvil with Vader.

Spinal Armament VSD's with Imperial Light Cruisers may become a very nice Hammer and anvil with Vader.

Well, I discovered that they work even without Imperial Light Cruisers VSD-VSD-Int-Gz-Gz is a lot of red dice.

Spinal Armament VSD's with Imperial Light Cruisers may become a very nice Hammer and anvil with Vader.

Well, I discovered that they work even without Imperial Light Cruisers VSD-VSD-Int-Gz-Gz is a lot of red dice.

You think of swapping liaisons for Intel officers??

Spinal Armament VSD's with Imperial Light Cruisers may become a very nice Hammer and anvil with Vader.

Well, I discovered that they work even without Imperial Light Cruisers VSD-VSD-Int-Gz-Gz is a lot of red dice.

You think of swapping liaisons for Intel officers??

Its more expensive and makes VSDs much less flexible.

Had another loss last night playing Imps.

My fleet:

ISD II (Screed, Relentless, Yularen, Gunnery Team, Tractor Beams, ECM, Leading Shots, XI7)

Raider I (Instigator, Titus, OE, APT)

Raider I (Impetuous, Kallus, OE, APT)

Gozanti (Vector, Flight Commander, Expanded Hanger, Jamming Field)

Howlrunner

4x Interceptor

Enemy fleet was

MC80 Assault Cruiser (Dodonna and heavy combat upgrades)

3 transports (decked out for fighter support)

Luke, Wedge, Jan Ors, 2 x-wing, 3 b-wing.

We both brought exactly 400 points and my opponent won the coin flip and chose 1st player.

The ISD and MC80 were non-factors in the game. Rebel fighters easily destroyed the tie fighters and moved on to kill the anti-fighter raiders before they ever fired a shot. In the end I only killed a single b-wing and did 2 damage to one transport.

I've only got one battle left without the Imp specials. I'll be glad to go back. This has been a valuable lesson in how to lose often and stay cheerful.

Things that worked:

• Using tractor beam to slow down the middle ship in a conga line (collisions ensued)
• Using the ISD as an intimidation factor (forcing enemy capital ship to veer off)

Things that didn't:

• Pushing the Raiders forward to try and engage the enemy fighters (move-then-shoot makes AA Raiders a sketchy concept)
• Using Howlrunner without an Escort (burned down by 2 x-wings rolling accuracies)
• Using a relatively small fighter screen (Howl + 4 Int) against massive enemy squadron presence

Lessons learned:

• Don't lead with Raiders, they blow up too easy.
• 1st player is very powerful in a squadron heavy list
• Fleet Ambush is a terrible Objective for 2nd player if your opponent has a bomber list
• Even at speed 3 you can't get a decisive engagement with an ISD unless your opponent allows it

This continues to be an interesting conversation. It seems from what I'm reading that most Imperial players are now tending to try and stay at range....is this so? Because that, I don't comprehend. My primary tactic is to close to ramming range as fast as possible, block off avenues of escape, and unload with every dice.

I don't think its a matter of "intending" to stay at Range.

I think its more being prepared for when the Rebels run away, they're still able to do something....

I mean, almost regardless of what Imperial strategy you take, you will be absolutely devastating at close range...

So work on the bits of your engagement profile that are lacklustre, and you're more all-rounded, or flexible, at the very least.

Dras, my tactics are to head off the enemy fleet, box them in and blast away. Maybe it's my play style ( always start at max speed, stay there, navigate) but I've never had an issue corralling Rebs. The occasional CR90 has escaped me, but not very often.

It's entirely possible, I suppose, that some of my opponents have been over cautious, or similar. Guess time will tell, but I'm following these type of posts closely to try and get a feel for the new meta. It doesn't help the local scene is almost nonexistent ( trying to fix that).

Dras, my tactics are to head off the enemy fleet, box them in and blast away. Maybe it's my play style ( always start at max speed, stay there, navigate) but I've never had an issue corralling Rebs. The occasional CR90 has escaped me, but not very often.

It's entirely possible, I suppose, that some of my opponents have been over cautious, or similar. Guess time will tell, but I'm following these type of posts closely to try and get a feel for the new meta. It doesn't help the local scene is almost nonexistent ( trying to fix that).

Not doubting you at all, mate. I'm just trying to relay out the apparent design intent of what people are stating above me... At least, thats how I see it as a Filthy Rebel player....

I am also completely and utterly biased - being a filthy rebel.

I've always liked squadrons. Always enjoyed them. Always think that they should be a part of a fleet.

I still believe that the Squadronless fleet is niche, and perhaps even more so in what is evolving as part of Wave 3 and 4... Mostly because what you were given as tools in that release. In the release, we got a lot of things that improves squadrons, but very little that directly counters them. In fact, I don't see anything that makes a direct negative effect on squadrons... And from a design intent point, that is telling.

...

Now, I will say, that come Wave 5, even ignoring the Fighter packs themselves, that there appears to be at least one anti-squadron card in the Pelta Frigate (Fletchette Torpedoes), and it has been argued that Dual Turbolaser Turrets may be useful as Anti-Squadron plats as well... But its the first time since Wave 2 where we've seen something that is directly anti-squadron....

I think in general imperials want to joust. its very obvious looking at arcs that is the design.... the rebels want to kite and toilet bowl.

heading them off getting to ramming situations and fully unloading with dice till they die.

as for the challenge:

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers, motti

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers

6x TIE Ints
Howlrunner
Dengar

Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, Superior Positions

its the same list I played for wave 2, take out rhymer and isd2 to isd1 and more TIE Ints.... it will destroy squadrons and that many blue dice and speed at short range will shred enemy ships on top of the ISD1 firing solutions late game.

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers, motti

In fact, I don't see anything that makes a direct negative effect on squadrons...

as for the challenge:

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers, motti

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers

6x TIE Ints

Howlrunner

Dengar

Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, Superior Positions

Agent Kallus

I Stand Corrected.

Keep forgetting he exists, not owning a Gozanti yet.

But even then, its tailored to unique squadrons, so we'll give it a half point - because it doesn't do much to squadrons in general - especaially not the sort of spammed squadrons we're talking about in a generalised 'xxxx heavy' list way.

And he's certainly not somthing you can slap on all of your AA Ships to make them better at generalist AA.... So, yeah. Half point.

In fact, I don't see anything that makes a direct negative effect on squadrons...

Agent Kallus

as for the challenge:

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers, motti

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers

6x TIE Ints

Howlrunner

Dengar

Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, Superior Positions

Not enough activations, not enough hull, no ECM, no gunnery teams (threatens only 2 ships per round), no strategy to deal with flotillas. This list will be outnavigated and tabled more often than you think.

.....

if you say so. my double ISD list dominated wave 2 locally and despite going 1-2 at regionals in NY, a big part of that was due to lack of practice and poor decisions.

dont under estimate how much damage those blue dice will do.... everyone does.. and then gets shocked with 4 ties take down their light ships over 2 turns.

edit*

if wave 4 means rebels want to joust me im 100% ok with that.

if wave 3 means my opponents want to play more squadrons I am 100% good with that as well.

it is not an easy list to play and is susceptible to a lot of things but in my experience when played correctly in simply dominates.

In fact, I don't see anything that makes a direct negative effect on squadrons...

Agent Kallus

as for the challenge:

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers, motti

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers

6x TIE Ints

Howlrunner

Dengar

Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, Superior Positions

Not enough activations, not enough hull, no ECM, no gunnery teams (threatens only 2 ships per round), no strategy to deal with flotillas. This list will be outnavigated and tabled more often than you think.

.....

if you say so. my double ISD list dominated wave 2 locally and despite going 1-2 at regionals in NY, a big part of that was due to lack of practice and poor decisions.

dont under estimate how much damage those blue dice will do.... everyone does.. and then gets shocked with 4 ties take down their light ships over 2 turns.

Pft. If you think TIE Interceptors are going to live 2 turns against ships, you're the one underestimating Blue Dice....

In fact, I don't see anything that makes a direct negative effect on squadrons...

Agent Kallus

as for the challenge:

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers, motti

isd1 - leading shots, boosted comms, support officer, xi7, flight controllers

6x TIE Ints

Howlrunner

Dengar

Advanced Gunnery, Contested Outpost, Superior Positions

Not enough activations, not enough hull, no ECM, no gunnery teams (threatens only 2 ships per round), no strategy to deal with flotillas. This list will be outnavigated and tabled more often than you think.

.....

if you say so. my double ISD list dominated wave 2 locally and despite going 1-2 at regionals in NY, a big part of that was due to lack of practice and poor decisions.

dont under estimate how much damage those blue dice will do.... everyone does.. and then gets shocked with 4 ties take down their light ships over 2 turns.

Pft. If you think TIE Interceptors are going to live 2 turns against ships, you're the one underestimating Blue Dice....

i don't underestimate blue dice look at my squadron load out. the thing is at speed 5 i dont have to comit until I am fairly sure I can just kill the ship... when it gets down to 3ish hull and no shields that's when I comit to the kill....

if you say so. my double ISD list dominated wave 2 locally and despite going 1-2 at regionals in NY, a big part of that was due to lack of practice and poor decisions.

...

if wave 4 means rebels want to joust me im 100% ok with that.

if wave 3 means my opponents want to play more squadrons I am 100% good with that as well.

it is not an easy list to play and is susceptible to a lot of things but in my experience when played correctly in simply dominates.

Maybe we should meet and play I expected to encounter your list at NY regional and was mentally prepared to best it. And switch from ISD2 to ISD1 with no gunnery teams makes the list less threatening.

Keep in mind that if your opponent wants to joust you, you'll be jousting on their terms (as you're severely outactivated), this means (as long as your opponent is skilled enough) that there'll be no ships at the close range of front arc for either ISD1 the whole game.

if you say so. my double ISD list dominated wave 2 locally and despite going 1-2 at regionals in NY, a big part of that was due to lack of practice and poor decisions.

...

if wave 4 means rebels want to joust me im 100% ok with that.

if wave 3 means my opponents want to play more squadrons I am 100% good with that as well.

it is not an easy list to play and is susceptible to a lot of things but in my experience when played correctly in simply dominates.

Maybe we should meet and play I expected to encounter your list at NY regional and was mentally prepared to best it. And switch from ISD2 to ISD1 with no gunnery teams makes the list less threatening.

Keep in mind that if your opponent wants to joust you, you'll be jousting on their terms (as you're severely outactivated), this means (as long as your opponent is skilled enough) that there'll be no ships at the close range of front arc for either ISD1 the whole game.

list isnt ideal obviously... i cant take rhymer or demo...... but given the challenge here is where i start and then branch out from. 6 things to deploy lets me guarentee one ISD is exactly where I need it.

if you say so. my double ISD list dominated wave 2 locally and despite going 1-2 at regionals in NY, a big part of that was due to lack of practice and poor decisions.

...

if wave 4 means rebels want to joust me im 100% ok with that.

if wave 3 means my opponents want to play more squadrons I am 100% good with that as well.

it is not an easy list to play and is susceptible to a lot of things but in my experience when played correctly in simply dominates.

Maybe we should meet and play I expected to encounter your list at NY regional and was mentally prepared to best it. And switch from ISD2 to ISD1 with no gunnery teams makes the list less threatening.

Keep in mind that if your opponent wants to joust you, you'll be jousting on their terms (as you're severely outactivated), this means (as long as your opponent is skilled enough) that there'll be no ships at the close range of front arc for either ISD1 the whole game.

list isnt ideal obviously... i cant take rhymer or demo...... but given the challenge here is where i start and then branch out from. 6 things to deploy lets me guarentee one ISD is exactly where I need it.

What troubles me with your list is that there's no way to reroll all those black dice, so you're at the mercy of Lady Luck when the time comes to bring the pain. Wouldn't it be better to drop 2 Interceptor to upgrade both ISD-1 to the ISD-2 version? This way Leading shot will be more useful and you also have 2 blue dice for AS, which will help against Rhymer. And with those 2 points left, I would change both Flight Controllers for a Gunnery Team so that both ISD will be able to shoot at 2 targets each turn (being able to shoot at a ship AND all squadrons in front arc should be better that 1 more blue dice for your activated squadrons).

I flew a 2x ISD I + squadrons list last week that was very similar.

The enemy had 2 Liberties and 2 Transports. He out-activated me and burned down an ISD with little trouble, using Engine Techs to avoid the worst of any reprisals. I was really wishing for ECM the whole battle as the accuracies just rolled over my poor Brace token.

I think the list was solid before Wave 3/4. But now it will have trouble.

Dras, my tactics are to head off the enemy fleet, box them in and blast away. Maybe it's my play style ( always start at max speed, stay there, navigate) but I've never had an issue corralling Rebs. The occasional CR90 has escaped me, but not very often.

It's entirely possible, I suppose, that some of my opponents have been over cautious, or similar. Guess time will tell, but I'm following these type of posts closely to try and get a feel for the new meta. It doesn't help the local scene is almost nonexistent ( trying to fix that).

Not doubting you at all, mate. I'm just trying to relay out the apparent design intent of what people are stating above me... At least, thats how I see it as a Filthy Rebel player....

I am also completely and utterly biased - being a filthy rebel.

I've always liked squadrons. Always enjoyed them. Always think that they should be a part of a fleet.

I still believe that the Squadronless fleet is niche, and perhaps even more so in what is evolving as part of Wave 3 and 4... Mostly because what you were given as tools in that release. In the release, we got a lot of things that improves squadrons, but very little that directly counters them. In fact, I don't see anything that makes a direct negative effect on squadrons... And from a design intent point, that is telling.

...

Now, I will say, that come Wave 5, even ignoring the Fighter packs themselves, that there appears to be at least one anti-squadron card in the Pelta Frigate (Fletchette Torpedoes), and it has been argued that Dual Turbolaser Turrets may be useful as Anti-Squadron plats as well... But its the first time since Wave 2 where we've seen something that is directly anti-squadron....

Oh, I understood what you meant, you Rebel Scum....lol.

I agree squadrons are iconic. I absolutely love Interceptors. But as stated before, in wave one and even two, I didn't really see them be effective. Now, however, I am somewhat revising that estimate as the meta changes and adapts. There's no doubting that a well handled Rebel bomber centric fleet has now become a viable threath, while before it was a walk; and the Rhymer Fireball is definitely a thing I'm myself experimenting with now.

I think a well maneuvered all ship Imperial fleet can still be very effective....but I'm starting to lean towards taking at least a token screening CAP to avert those bombers. Bwings are to be respected lol.

Agree with the "effectiveness" of Interceptors... Even now. Tissue Hull is a liability in every circumstance other than an absolute overwhelming alpha strike - and even then, you need to basically fly them away from enemy ships if you intend to not lose the points for them...

Had another loss last night playing Imps.

My fleet:

ISD II (Screed, Relentless, Yularen, Gunnery Team, Tractor Beams, ECM, Leading Shots, XI7)

Raider I (Instigator, Titus, OE, APT)

Raider I (Impetuous, Kallus, OE, APT)

Gozanti (Vector, Flight Commander, Expanded Hanger, Jamming Field)

Howlrunner

4x Interceptor

Enemy fleet was

MC80 Assault Cruiser (Dodonna and heavy combat upgrades)

3 transports (decked out for fighter support)

Luke, Wedge, Jan Ors, 2 x-wing, 3 b-wing.

We both brought exactly 400 points and my opponent won the coin flip and chose 1st player.

The ISD and MC80 were non-factors in the game. Rebel fighters easily destroyed the tie fighters and moved on to kill the anti-fighter raiders before they ever fired a shot. In the end I only killed a single b-wing and did 2 damage to one transport.

I've only got one battle left without the Imp specials. I'll be glad to go back. This has been a valuable lesson in how to lose often and stay cheerful.

Things that worked:

• Using tractor beam to slow down the middle ship in a conga line (collisions ensued)
• Using the ISD as an intimidation factor (forcing enemy capital ship to veer off)

Things that didn't:

• Pushing the Raiders forward to try and engage the enemy fighters (move-then-shoot makes AA Raiders a sketchy concept)
• Using Howlrunner without an Escort (burned down by 2 x-wings rolling accuracies)
• Using a relatively small fighter screen (Howl + 4 Int) against massive enemy squadron presence

Lessons learned:

• Don't lead with Raiders, they blow up too easy.
• 1st player is very powerful in a squadron heavy list
• Fleet Ambush is a terrible Objective for 2nd player if your opponent has a bomber list
• Even at speed 3 you can't get a decisive engagement with an ISD unless your opponent allows it

Sounds like you sent your TIE's out and then tried to support them. Try it the other way around. Keep your TIE's in and have them support you.