So the challenge is simple. Play 10 games straight without using Demolisher or Major Rhymer and post your results!
With the new waves out you have far more options and so I put the challenge to all of you.
Mikael Hasselstein has taken the challenge and done great! Are you prepared to take the challenge?
Wonderbread has been doing this fur the better part of a month.
My buddy and I alternate each week, but today I'm chalking up a win for a non rhymer/demo list.
Vader Gozanti, ISD I Avenger and 3 ACM Raider swarm with 2 TIE-A, 2 TIE-Int vs a 6 act Ackbar list. The Gozanti narrowly avoided death twice and even scored the one hit needed to kill an Assault Frigate (after I suddenly realised it had one blue die at it! - I'm so used to choosing the unarmed rebel transports I almost forgot the Imp Flotilla had guns!).
Won with this last night. Kon Minefields are brutal. No chance to hide, move debris post mine, Titus for the lol and option to run Grav Well. Still prefer Grav Shift to hate on DT/CP. Getting the whole 3 Kon triggers on 3 ships at once was awesome. Your Raider goes to 1, your Goz can fly away and your turtled ISD at long is now speed 3 and flying into close range of everything as soon as it activates. Going to play this a bunch, never thought I'd be buying a VSD expansion this late into the game 
Opponent was Ozzel, ISD II, Rdr I, Goz, Goz, Advanced, Vader, FireS, Bobba, Mauler, Sontir
Kon 3 Medium Attempt Mk1
Author: Trizzo134
Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 398/400
Commander: Admiral Konstantine
Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush
Navigation Objective: Minefields
[ flagship ] Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Admiral Konstantine ( 23 points)
- Interdictor ( 3 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Projection Experts ( 6 points)
- G-8 Experiemental Projector ( 8 points)
- Grav Shift Reroute ( 2 points)
= 139 total ship cost
Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Captain Needa ( 2 points)
- Veteran Gunners ( 5 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 87 total ship cost
Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Veteran Gunners ( 5 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 87 total ship cost
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Admiral Titus ( 2 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 31 total ship cost
3 TIE Interceptor Squadrons ( 33 points)
1 IG-88 ( 21 points)
Edited by Trizzo2Won with this last night vs a lib/af/bright hope and bombers. It was fun, but ultimately suffered from the same thing Vic's had before and that was getting flanked. I want to try the next go around with Konstantine to see if I can bring them to me rather than chase them and get looped around (played their CO). Also want to drop to suppression for the grav shift reroute, they are just so buttery for certain objectives.
Fleet Summary Page (399 of 400 pts) Faction: The Empire Commander: Admiral Screed (26 pts)
Flagship: (114 pts)Interdictor Combat Refit (93 pts) Interdictor (3 pts) Wulff Yularen (7 pts) Projection Experts (6 pts) Targeting Scrambler (5 pts)
Fleet Ship 1: (94 pts) Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts) Intel Officer (7 pts) Fire Control Team (2 pts) XX-9 Turbolasers (5 pts) Assault Concussion Missiles (7 pts)
Fleet Ship 2: (94 pts) Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts) Intel Officer (7 pts) Fire Control Team (2 pts) XX-9 Turbolasers (5 pts) Assault Concussion Missiles (7 pts)
Squadrons (71 of 134 pts): 1x Mauler Mithel Tie Fighter Squadron (15 pts) 1x Punishing One - Dengar (20 pts) 3x Tie Fighter Squadron (24 pts) 1x Tie Advanced Squadron (12 pts) Objectives: Most Wanted , Fire Lanes , Minefields
I traded a Vic for his Liberty and ended with three tokens to his zero so it ended 7-4. Got the XX-9 ACM combo off once vs his lib when I popped it, would have had another vs bright hope but those fickle reds failed to produce the needed accuracy so the would be one shot was scattered.
There are great lists that can be built around any of the superior Imperial ships. Do not let these rebel scum tell you what to run! Run what you need to run. The good Major Rhymer needs (and is) support! Demo cannot win a match all by himself. The rebels love to speak of all the Imperial rule breaking that Demo and Rhymer cause and then use Yavaris and Luke and Rieekan and... and... and...
Use any and all the tools that you require to crush this insignificant rebellion into the little ants that they are!
There are great lists that can be built around any of the superior Imperial ships. Do not let these rebel scum tell you what to run! Run what you need to run. The good Major Rhymer needs (and is) support! Demo cannot win a match all by himself. The rebels love to speak of all the Imperial rule breaking that Demo and Rhymer cause and then use Yavaris and Luke and Rieekan and... and... and...
Use any and all the tools that you require to crush this insignificant rebellion into the little ants that they are!
^This.
It's like declaring you won't use Yavaris in a squad-centric rebel list. Sure, it can be done, but why would you do it? I mean, unless running something like Matt's Ackbar AFs w/YTs.
The challenge was made to get players to develope new tactics and try new cards. Like the guy who found out "Wow, didn't realize Bossk was that good."
Rebel players should absolutely do the same. The standout Rebel cards/ships aren't as distinct as Rhymer/Demo, so it gets less press.
Also, my default with is a 2xMC80, 133 points of squads, Dodonna list. The way it plays, Yavaris is al ost a liability.
Bossk is good. He was in my fleet of 2 GSD-II, one Raider one Assault Carrier yesterday.
Both GSD titles in play. Because why would I not take them?
It was definitely an out of the box type list. Not taking Demo would just make it worse. Not break it. Just make it worse.
As some have stated, it limits your overall ability in the game. Not using demolisher and or Rhymer means that you have to be more creative and learn different tricks.why handicap myself?So the challenge is simple. Play 10 games straight without using Demolisher or Major Rhymer and post your results!
With the new waves out you have far more options and so I put the challenge to all of you.
Mikael Hasselstein has taken the challenge and done great! Are you prepared to take the challenge?
they are obviously good. its like going to a job and leaving your best tool for it at home cuz you like challenges.....
If winning 90% of the time is limiting myself, I'll take it!!
Seriously, I've tried this simply because with all the new toys I wanted to try them out. I think Demo is going to become more of a support ship than the knock out punch it has been. And I never used Rhymer much to begin with.
This Challenge is set to a specific type of Imperial Player.
This Challenge is to the Imperial Braggart who is oft saying "Pft. I just take Demolisher and Smash Face. Win Button, Dude." or some variety...
This Challenge is to the Imperial Player who has been overheard to mutter "Never play without Major Rhymer, total Win Button, man." or some variety...
Yes, I have heard them, and yes, I am all for those people to take their Demo, Take their Rhymer, and shove them somewhere dark..
Like the bottom of their Foam bag...
Because they're getting complacent. Its not that they're winning all the time, its just that they are taking what is comfortable and familiar and not seeing anything else that is available... I mean, in a massive tournament, a Regionals, you should take what is familiar to you, because its game-freaking-on at that point..... But the rest of the time, you should at the very least consider removing what is familiar from the table before you... So you can experiment, and become a better overall player...
Because, eventually, people are going to work out, or be given the tactics and equipment to remove your advantage in using these singular pieces repeatedly.... Would you prefer not to be prepared at that point, rather than be trying to come to grips with it at some major tournament?
...
I mean, the other side of it is... I'm not a good player. Really, I'm average, at best. (Great at important things like maneuver, horrible at other more important things like Rolling Dice!)... But I at least understand how everything works. I mean, I play Rebels almost exclusively, and the amount of Imperial exclusive players who come to get advice from me is staggering, some days...
So no, this Challenge is not for everyone. If you're insulted over this challenge, then, y'know what, fair call. I can't tell you to not be insulted. But I at least ask that you take a few seconds to see if its even applicable to you before venting frustration, or dismissal...
I'm guilty of not doing that.
im totally a person who said you should play demo or rhymer at the very least to be competitive at armada.... I do not feel I was wrong.
Now my rhymer was never bomber centric and in fact just enabled a swarm of cheap ties to harass ships after I won squadron combat.
i get what the OP is trying to do, inspire new ideas and fleets. Rhymer and Demo are simply too strong and if you don't think FFG is designing around these modes you are also wrong. upgrades and ships need to be balanced in conjunction with these options or else they become run away trains. They are very very good but Imperials are no where near being runaway trains, which means FFG is doing a good job. It also means that its ok to take rhymer and or demo. In a lot of ways they are newb stompers and if you've been playing the game since wave 1 when demo hit and havn't figured out how to beat it.... maybe demo isn't the issue.....
no offense meant but i see these complaints in other games sometimes the correct answer is get better.
no offense meant but i see these complaints in other games sometimes the correct answer is get better.
But on the flipside of that, "lol l2p n00b" shouldn't be the answer, either.
Get better seriously shouldn't ever be the response. Not if you want to foster a community. Although yeah, we all know that that doesn't always work out according to plan.
no offense meant but i see these complaints in other games sometimes the correct answer is get better.
But on the flipside of that, "lol l2p n00b" shouldn't be the answer, either.
It shouldn't be the only answer......
sometimes your list is bad, and sometimes you are bad, and sometimes your dice are bad.
I have a local player that always has the most balls busting out of left field lists when I face him in tournaments... On paper I should never beat him. Then you look at his command dials during the game and realize why I win and he doesn't. Great dude, nice guy, maybe isn't the best at playing the game....
I approach a lot of fleet/list building like I was making a 5man raid for a MMO after wae 3/4. Gozanti/Interdictor offer healing. ISD offers tanking (assuming you ram it down your opponents throat and force them to shoot it over other targets), and Rhymer/GSD offer DPS.... now Demo is essentially the best DPS model in the game. Highest burst damage potential.... anyone who's played any sort of PVP MMO/MOBA knows burst > Sustained as burst is harder to heal. These same principles apply to a lot of miniature games. Sure you can try to nickle and dime a ship down but you offer your opponent more chances to repair and shunt shields. If you roll up pop cool downs and drop that ship in 1-2 activations in the same turn.... its a wrap. I still believe armada is a game of risk vs reward and if the reward is worth the risk you take it. If it works you win.
For rebels you get the skirmisher play style. they are the rogue.. hunter.. mage.. they kite you, they dance around they are hard to catch and they hurt. If you do catch them, they crumble. the new MC80 may offer them some tanking potential and TRC spam makes there DPS very very good, arguably better than Demo as they can take multiples of it.
I am not saying that imps NEED Rhymer or Demo to win, but not taking them is clearly handicapping yourself, especially if you want to go win tournaments and get sweet swag.
Get better seriously shouldn't ever be the response. Not if you want to foster a community. Although yeah, we all know that that doesn't always work out according to plan.
dudes been playing armada for 2 weeks.... wants to know how to beat X or Y.... play more, get better should be the first advice. not in the satirical GET GID NEWB way, in the you need more than 4 games under your belt before you worry about countering specific trends in the meta. Until 80% of your command dials are what they should be at all times, don't worry about meta trends. you win and lose games based on those dials.
that said, you wouldn't shun and berate him for not being a top notch player, right? I mean last night I played against a guy who posts videos on Youtube. I'm sure I made an ass of myself (more than normal here) getting beaten like I did. It was still fun, and I did learn enough to never do it again.....but there's always that chance I might.
I try to make the game fun for everyone.....especially with terrible commentary.
play more
, get bettershould be the first advice.
There you go.
The Advice is not GET BETTER
Its PRACTICE MORE.
There is a VERY distinct difference there...
I am not saying that imps NEED Rhymer or Demo to win, but not taking them is clearly handicapping yourself, especially if you want to go win tournaments and get sweet swag.
I'm going to disagree with you here. In my mind the situation is the opposite - one handicaps himself by always taking a Demo and/or Rhymer, cause as a result he limits himself to a subset of Imperial builds.
And in my mind this is what this challenge is about - go out, experiment and discover that there are strong competitive builds without them.
I am not saying that imps NEED Rhymer or Demo to win, but not taking them is clearly handicapping yourself, especially if you want to go win tournaments and get sweet swag.
I'm going to disagree with you here. In my mind the situation is the opposite - one handicaps himself by always taking a Demo and/or Rhymer, cause as a result he limits himself to a subset of Imperial builds.
And in my mind this is what this challenge is about - go out, experiment and discover that there are strong competitive builds without them.
while only doing this on the dojo.... i found point for point demo outshines almost every other option... sure 2 control dictors with an ids is good.. but its better with demo cuz now i get 40pts of other stuff...
do you limit yourself to a play style or tactic the majority of players should be ready to face? sure. the benefits of taking it are simply better than not.
I am also talking from a more competitive mindset. are there builds that can win without rhymer and/or demo.. sure.... regionals proved otherwise IIRC.
play more
, get bettershould be the first advice.
There you go.
The Advice is not GET BETTER
Its PRACTICE MORE.
There is a VERY distinct difference there...
you can practice and never take anything away from it and simply stagnate..... there is a distinct difference which i why I mentioned it. I see it a lot in WMH where people play 6 games a week but never put any post game thought into it and they see no results.
should you get better simply by playing more? yes. does that mean you will? no. More important than playing 20 games a week is sitting down and thinking about the game and identifying what went right what went wrong... were your command dials perfect? why? manuevers good or bad? did the risks you take pay of? if not, why?
Its clear that we are at a differnce in terminology, and I guess that's okay...
Telling someone to "Get Better" does nothing towards that end, because it provides no pathway for that to happen...
"Practice", "Put thought into your post game", "ask yourself where you went wrong"... These are all better suggestions than "Get better" with nothing appended to it. - And they are all suggestions you made 
You seem to wrap all of those up in "Get better", which is okay... But someone has to know that.
because if its not specified in some time, or place, or position.... All they hear is "Get Better."
Edited by Drasnighta
I am not saying that imps NEED Rhymer or Demo to win, but not taking them is clearly handicapping yourself, especially if you want to go win tournaments and get sweet swag.
I'm going to disagree with you here. In my mind the situation is the opposite - one handicaps himself by always taking a Demo and/or Rhymer, cause as a result he limits himself to a subset of Imperial builds.
And in my mind this is what this challenge is about - go out, experiment and discover that there are strong competitive builds without them.
Which is exactly why you are exempt from it 
Its clear that we are at a differnce in terminology, and I guess that's okay...
Telling someone to "Get Better" does nothing towards that end, because it provides no pathway for that to happen...
"Practice", "Put thought into your post game", "ask yourself where you went wrong"... These are all better suggestions than "Get better" with nothing appended to it. - And they are all suggestions you made
You seem to wrap all of those up in "Get better", which is okay... But someone has to know that.
because if its not specified in some time, or place, or position.... All they hear is "Get Better."
fair... im speed posting at work so comprehensive thought translation isnt always on point.
I am not saying that imps NEED Rhymer or Demo to win, but not taking them is clearly handicapping yourself, especially if you want to go win tournaments and get sweet swag.
I'm going to disagree with you here. In my mind the situation is the opposite - one handicaps himself by always taking a Demo and/or Rhymer, cause as a result he limits himself to a subset of Imperial builds.
And in my mind this is what this challenge is about - go out, experiment and discover that there are strong competitive builds without them.
while only doing this on the dojo.... i found point for point demo outshines almost every other option... sure 2 control dictors with an ids is good.. but its better with demo cuz now i get 40pts of other stuff...
do you limit yourself to a play style or tactic the majority of players should be ready to face? sure. the benefits of taking it are simply better than not.
I am also talking from a more competitive mindset. are there builds that can win without rhymer and/or demo.. sure.... regionals proved otherwise IIRC.
The question is, are you limiting yourself by always thinking of Demo as the option? If you only ever play demo can you say that you know how to play the other ships? How will not taking Demo affect how those ships are played? How would you ever know?
I am not saying that imps NEED Rhymer or Demo to win, but not taking them is clearly handicapping yourself, especially if you want to go win tournaments and get sweet swag.
I'm going to disagree with you here. In my mind the situation is the opposite - one handicaps himself by always taking a Demo and/or Rhymer, cause as a result he limits himself to a subset of Imperial builds.
And in my mind this is what this challenge is about - go out, experiment and discover that there are strong competitive builds without them.
while only doing this on the dojo.... i found point for point demo outshines almost every other option... sure 2 control dictors with an ids is good.. but its better with demo cuz now i get 40pts of other stuff...
do you limit yourself to a play style or tactic the majority of players should be ready to face? sure. the benefits of taking it are simply better than not.
I am also talking from a more competitive mindset. are there builds that can win without rhymer and/or demo.. sure.... regionals proved otherwise IIRC.
The question is, are you limiting yourself by always thinking of Demo as the option? If you only ever play demo can you say that you know how to play the other ships? How will not taking Demo affect how those ships are played? How would you ever know?
depends. if you are only taking demo cuz the internet told you too then yes you are limited yourself.
if you only take demo because you understand how the game works, have looked at other options, and came the conclusion its balls good for all the reasons it is then no, you are not limiting yourself.