Well it just so happens that I've been playing Imperial games without Demolisher or Rhymer as there's no room for them in the list I'm trying to improve with.

As it stands I'm at 1 win and 3 losses and I'll work my way towards the full 10 games. Though I base my loses not so much on my list build (and lack of Demolisher and/or Rhymer), but because I'm playing against really good Armada players. And I myself am still pretty novice at the strategy aspect of it.

Good! Keep it up! If you have questions take pictures of your turns and post them and ask questions.

Wouldn't mind some input on my list and tips on strategies. Obviously I'll get better with it the more I play, but would be nice to get some constructive criticism on it too.

I'll post it in the Fleet Builds sub-forum.

So the challenge is simple. Play 10 games straight without using Demolisher or Major Rhymer and post your results!

With the new waves out you have far more options and so I put the challenge to all of you.

Mikael Hasselstein has taken the challenge and done great! Are you prepared to take the challenge?

Counter-challenge: If you play rebel go ten games without whining about Demolisher or Rhymer.

I have wanted to try something bonkers like this for a while. Now, if having no squadrons proves a bit to silly, I may swap out a Glad for some Aggressors....

Imperial Mad Science

Author: Englishpete

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 399/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost

Navigation Objective: Minefields

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)

- Relentless ( 3 points)

- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

= 143 total ship cost

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Skilled First Officer ( 1 points)

- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

= 121 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)

- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

= 69 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

= 66 total ship cost

The list like this may work, however fifth activation and Motti would be nice (I did run squadronless double ISD list at NOVA) I would also consider adding OE instead or LS on ISD's.

Yeh, OE may be the better option. The trick will be supporting each ship so squadrons take multiple ship shots.

Counter-challenge: If you play rebel go ten games without whining about Demolisher or Rhymer.

I'm at 22.

Does that mean I can whine now?

(Only lost one ship to a demo recently, and it was an Admo that I deliberately put in its way, while I had Rieekan, so I'd take it out in return... SkyCake'll back me up, as it was his Demo...)

So the challenge is simple. Play 10 games straight without using Demolisher or Major Rhymer and post your results!

With the new waves out you have far more options and so I put the challenge to all of you.

Mikael Hasselstein has taken the challenge and done great! Are you prepared to take the challenge?

I am not sure if I have used them ten times ever, so easy to do.

Counter-challenge: If you play rebel go ten games without whining about Demolisher or Rhymer.

I'm at 22.

Does that mean I can whine now?

(Only lost one ship to a demo recently, and it was an Admo that I deliberately put in its way, while I had Rieekan, so I'd take it out in return... SkyCake'll back me up, as it was his Demo...)

I think i am at 50 something. . . I know how to deal with Demo and Rhymer so I have no issues but they are STRONG board presence and will change how a player plays pretty fast

Counter-challenge: If you play rebel go ten games without whining about Demolisher or Rhymer.

I'm at 22.

Does that mean I can whine now?

(Only lost one ship to a demo recently, and it was an Admo that I deliberately put in its way, while I had Rieekan, so I'd take it out in return... SkyCake'll back me up, as it was his Demo...)

Whine away! I have never known you to be a whiner...

Counter-challenge: If you play rebel go ten games without whining about Demolisher or Rhymer.

I'm at 22.

Does that mean I can whine now?

(Only lost one ship to a demo recently, and it was an Admo that I deliberately put in its way, while I had Rieekan, so I'd take it out in return... SkyCake'll back me up, as it was his Demo...)

I think i am at 50 something. . . I know how to deal with Demo and Rhymer so I have no issues but they are STRONG board presence and will change how a player plays pretty fast

You on the other hand...I am not so sure...I think you have whined too much about them lately.

To be fair and honest, I was pretty hard-up in the Fleet Builds a while ago, because I was struggling with Rhymer... A lot... Like, Taking 8 X-Wings and losing 7 of them, but only taking out 2 Advanced and not touching the Ball itself.... So I was pretty chip-on-shoulder-y for a while...

I'll take the challenge and revert back to Imps for a while: took a non-Rhymer, non-Demo Tagge list and won first place in a low attendance tournament. Went 1-1 and got a bye that ended up giving me the win... how I ended up winning is a matter of math and that feels bizarre as I only won my game by something like 20 points and lost by 10. The margins were all razor thin.

Lessons learned: ISD's are still great, VSD's I can use and like, Gozanti are nice, still no word on interdictors based on personal experience (they're interesting opponents), Raiders are good but got eclipsed by some flotillas AA which were on fire for everyone, and Imperial TIE Swarms are nice but still drop like flies to aces. Tagge did literally nothing but eat up points, and I had a flotilla scatter away an ISD 2 at close range despite leading shot rerolls... I rerolled -everything- and couldn't get that accuracy. Rerolling multiple double red hits and getting double red hits, only to realize it would all amount to nothing is heartbreaking. You know, on top of a CR90 surviving the same ISD's front arc in the same turn thanks to getting -all- the accuracies.. My gunners, my poor deluded, blind-drunk gunners. That was a pretty good laugh, I'll admit. What, nothing on GSD's? Well, I took 2 cheap GSD-I's and while I'm sure they're great if you can use them; I, apparently, still can't. Therefor, I remain committed to hating the Imperial Cheese Knives with a passion. One will remain in my registry for a while as I need to learn how to make them not suck; that is, after I try this dual ISD +Int 'bully' experiment list.

I miss Rebels so, so, so much.

I almost never use squadrons, and when I do, it's Firesprays. Oh, and drink dos Equis. Lol.

As far as Demo, haven't fielded her in a bit. My local meta is dead, so even playing one game is a challenge, but my last two games I didn't use Demo, instead going for plain Glads.

Learning to use Raiders effectively is quite the challenge. They are great anti-squadron platforms and can be fun APT carriers. But they wither under fire from heavy ships.

In my experience, the trick with Raiders is sleight of hand. The Raiders can't take fire, as you've discovered, so as a rule you need to either present a better (more tempting or more threatening, either works) target, or divert his attention in other ways. Ozzel is absolutely not required to use Raiders effectively, though he does help boosting into battle and slowing back down to dogfight. I would recommend either kitting out the Raiders as aggressive pickets (APT, ACM, Expanded Launchers etc) OR as anti-fighter screens (QLTs, EHB if you want pocket carriers that can actually fight and can drag a pair of squadrons around), but NOT as both. Every time I have tried that, I've ended up with dead Raiders that I never got my money's worth from. My favorite list to run is a pair of Raider-1s with OE and APT/ACM flanking an ISD-1 and a squadron ball (and officers and ISD upgrades) to taste. Double black fire shreds squadrons and the Raiders can hide in the Imperial's shadow until a target presents itself, like a Neb-B attempting to flee the Star Destroyer, but presenting that delicate flank arc to the picket screen. If you can learn to manage your opponent's attention, teams of Raiders can rival well-equipped Gladiators for destructive power. And you get an extra activation to boot.

Im going to try and get 2-3 games in this weekend with this list. I have a few variations I want to try, adding gunnery teams, gunnery/avenger, make one a IDS 1 one with OE/LS and avenger. I want to see how Tarkin/Defense Liaison does for tactical flexibility/repairing when need.

2 ISD Test

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 382/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost

Navigation Objective: Minefields

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)

- Defense Liaison ( 3 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

= 140 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)

- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)

- Defense Liaison ( 3 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

= 178 total ship cost

4 Aggressor Assault Fighters ( 64 points)

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

I have been essentially doing this, with some exceptions, since Wave 2 was released. Post Sullust I was gleefully tearing up space with an ISD paired with two VSDs. My battle squadron was unstoppable until I solo-played against an Ackbar list, which utterly destroyed it with no losses. I long to have that list be effective again.

There were only a handful of exceptions. One was a two ISD-I list with a rhymer-fighter ball that got ripped to shreds against Mythics and his stupid Yavaris-supported X-B cloud. Another was the first time I made my own remix of the Clonisher list and utterly destroyed my opponent with it.

They are exceptions because I see neither as being a fluffy strength of the Empire. Empire is about massive impervious space dreadnoughts crushing everything in their path, not one Hero bomber and a Cartoon Star Destroyer. So I'm stubbornly trying to find a satisfying, workable, list that does not include ither of these power cards.

My current list I'm refining is INT-S / 2x VSD-I / 3x GZ. Upgrades include Expanded Launchers on the VSD-Is, Repair team and 2x Comms Nets on the GZs. G-8s and Targeting Scramblers on the INT. Trial admiral is Konsantine, but I may switch him to Motti or drop the G-8s for Grav Shift Re-Routes.

Before I decide I need to have more than one game a week, which is killing me.

Seeing an Imperial list without those two is only slightly more rare than seeing a Reb list without TRC or Ackbar.

Man, I havn't seen Ackbar in months...

And the last time I saw TRC and Ackbar was Store Champs...

But I see as many TRCs on the Imperial Side as I do the Rebel Side...

Its usually only the one on a lone Corvette, or ISD...

Ten games? I'll let you know the results in December then.

Man, I havn't seen Ackbar in months...

And the last time I saw TRC and Ackbar was Store Champs...

But I see as many TRCs on the Imperial Side as I do the Rebel Side...

Its usually only the one on a lone Corvette, or ISD...

It's interesting to me how things vary SO much by location of play.

Man, I havn't seen Ackbar in months...

And the last time I saw TRC and Ackbar was Store Champs...

But I see as many TRCs on the Imperial Side as I do the Rebel Side...

Its usually only the one on a lone Corvette, or ISD...

It's interesting to me how things vary SO much by location of play.

Indeed. My community rebel players almost always field ackbar...

I am primarily an Imperial player, and I've never used Demo, and only used Rhymer once

Granted, the number of games I've played so far is in the single digits, but that's just a minor detail

Seeing an Imperial list without those two is only slightly more rare than seeing a Reb list without TRC or Ackbar.

I concur: regionalism! Around here in the SF Bay it's common to see Rieekan. Actually, Imperial players themselves are rather rare, I'm one of the only ones I know of personally (Thecactusman is the other).

One of my primary opponents (Mythics) relies on Yavaris more than Ackbar or TRCs. That I have this answer at least suggests that the Rebels have a lot of toys and things to built lists around and make fun, competitive lists. Meanwhile, here we are in a thread challenging Empire players to make good, working, fun lists not using Rhymer or Demo/DeMSU lists.

Seeing an Imperial list without those two is only slightly more rare than seeing a Reb list without TRC or Ackbar.

I concur: regionalism! Around here in the SF Bay it's common to see Rieekan. Actually, Imperial players themselves are rather rare, I'm one of the only ones I know of personally (Thecactusman is the other).

One of my primary opponents (Mythics) relies on Yavaris more than Ackbar or TRCs. That I have this answer at least suggests that the Rebels have a lot of toys and things to built lists around and make fun, competitive lists. Meanwhile, here we are in a thread challenging Empire players to make good, working, fun lists not using Rhymer or Demo/DeMSU lists.

Whereas the prevailing attitude here is quite the opposite.

The Rebels have all the options in the world, but they're hardly competitive with any of them...

Which is why for the big part of the past 12 months, I've been one of only two Rebel players.

The last tournament I attended in the past three months saw me as the only Imperial player, running 5x VSDs. Fought Mythic's MC30 APT spam list to a tie, but lost to a well-balanced rebel list. Got me really frustrated again that non-fighter non-DeMSU lists can't seem to work, and was starting to think about building fighter lists when Wave 3/4 dropped.

It IS telling that the two top lists were nearly identical at Gencon. And in spite of their toys, Rebels don't have easy workable counters to both of those cards except Rieekan to at least fight back. What I'm saying is, the Rebels can make more interesting working strategies and things they can do with their lists and have a reasonable chance of winning against non-power lists (like Empire players not running DeMSU and Rhymer). But I agree that the Empire can win power-game lists using those cards.

Seeing an Imperial list without those two is only slightly more rare than seeing a Reb list without TRC or Ackbar.

I concur: regionalism! Around here in the SF Bay it's common to see Rieekan. Actually, Imperial players themselves are rather rare, I'm one of the only ones I know of personally (Thecactusman is the other).

One of my primary opponents (Mythics) relies on Yavaris more than Ackbar or TRCs. That I have this answer at least suggests that the Rebels have a lot of toys and things to built lists around and make fun, competitive lists. Meanwhile, here we are in a thread challenging Empire players to make good, working, fun lists not using Rhymer or Demo/DeMSU lists.

Whereas the prevailing attitude here is quite the opposite.

The Rebels have all the options in the world, but they're hardly competitive with any of them...

Which is why for the big part of the past 12 months, I've been one of only two Rebel players.

Really? I mean I don't do touneys, but I am totally Rebel.

Its certainly a factional idea, based on Areas and Metas...

I can only speak to Hothgary in general... And evne then, in regard to the Sentry Box, which had a different subset of players than Myth Games, with a little, but not a lot, of crossover players...

Sentry Box was always High-Fighter. High Bomber. High Intel... Triple Vics with Flight Controllers and a 134 point Rhymer Ball operated quite effectively for a long time... Working up to Carrier ISDs with Demo Support, to DeMSUs on occasion... The Imperial-on-Imperial was always very catastrophically one-upping each other.

But I was the long Rebel for a long point of it, and I couldn't (and still can't) Roll Dice to Save my life... So despite me pulling out all of the stops, I wasn't getting very far in the ultra-competitive... its hardened to hte point that I am **** good at maneuver, but I can't roll a dice to save my life... So the Rebels got a bit of a stigma through that infamy (they lacked the die reliability that Imperials could abuse through Screed, Vader, OE, etc)., Which pushed more players to Imperial...

So yes. basically, because I sucked, Rebels sucked, for a long period.

But those times are changing with the new Waves... I just have to not suck.

I may have written a special edition article about this elsewhere......