I like to use intel officer after the spend defence tokens step, makes it easier to pick a target.

It IS after the rolling the dicepool afterall.

Except Intel Officer stipulates that if the token is spent it is discarded, so just exactly how are you using it after they spend defense tokens?

Come on guys...this is a simple one. RRG says after is immediately after. So grab dice, roll dice...and IO. Now or never.

I like to use intel officer after the spend defence tokens step, makes it easier to pick a target.

It IS after the rolling the dicepool afterall.

Except Intel Officer stipulates that if the token is spent it is discarded, so just exactly how are you using it after they spend defense tokens?

They did spend it during the attack in which intel was used.

Glad we agree timing isnt an issue though.

The |Problem| here is the word, "After".

There are two definitions of the word "After"

One is the colloquial english language definition, in which something happens in a period of time beyond what was being talked about...

One is the rules defined version, which is "immediately, before anything else occurs."

I am using the Rules Definition. Immediately, Before anything Else Occurs.

You are using the English Definition, in which is must happen in a period of time (however defined or not that may be), beyond the event happening...

Yes exactly, and that is why I think it is ambiguous, it is very hard to word the card in another way, but say the same thing.

I mean it is not the first time people have thought something was ambiguous and questioned it, sometimes they are right, and sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are right, and FFG say they are right, and then FFG change their minds about it, and suddenly they are wrong.

I like to use intel officer after the spend defence tokens step, makes it easier to pick a target.

It IS after the rolling the dicepool afterall.

Except Intel Officer stipulates that if the token is spent it is discarded, so just exactly how are you using it after they spend defense tokens?

They did spend it during the attack in which intel was used.

Glad we agree timing isnt an issue though.

fine

I have said my piece, Dras has said his. I really am done with this topic.

While attacking, during the modify step...if that's what's meant, it's not what's written.

Intel Officer: While attacking, after you roll your attack pool, you may exhaust this card to choose 1 defense token. If that token is spent during this attack, discard that token.

Effects use and Timing: p5. An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

Step 2 of Attack: p2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.

Does the Intel Officer then get used in Step 2, rather than step 3? Most people seem to play him as part of the modify dice step, which if I have put this together with some semblance of logic would imply I have been doing it wrong with many others.

Wow. Excellent catch, I don't think I've seen anybody who didn't play that wrong. But I'm pretty sure you're right.

That is it.

Not debating the merits of it being in Step 2, rather than Step 3...

But its certainly in Step 2, for a reason ... That reason just may not make sense to us, but we're not FFG who made it that way.

"Yes exactly, and that is why I think it is ambiguous, it is very hard to word the card in another way, but say the same thing."

By this logic, literally every card is ambiguous and should be clarified, because "maybe this one doesn't actually mean what it says."

Give it up man, you're very clearly in the wrong here.

"Yes exactly, and that is why I think it is ambiguous, it is very hard to word the card in another way, but say the same thing."

By this logic, literally every card is ambiguous and should be clarified, because "maybe this one doesn't actually mean what it says."

Give it up man, you're very clearly in the wrong here.

So we don't have ambiguity? in wording on cards? have you read this sub forum recently?

Disagree with me by all means, but do not make statements like I am the only person around here who questions wording and intent on cards.

And no in fact most cards are worded perfectly clearly, with no ambiguity.

The irony being if I am wrong, everyone else was confused by the ambiguity of the wording on Intel Officer, because no one questioned it till now.

"Yes exactly, and that is why I think it is ambiguous, it is very hard to word the card in another way, but say the same thing."

By this logic, literally every card is ambiguous and should be clarified, because "maybe this one doesn't actually mean what it says."

Give it up man, you're very clearly in the wrong here.

So we don't have ambiguity? in wording on cards? have you read this sub forum recently?

Disagree with me by all means, but do not make statements like I am the only person around here who questions wording and intent on cards.

And no in fact most cards are worded perfectly clearly, with no ambiguity.

The irony being if I am wrong, everyone else was confused by the ambiguity of the wording on Intel Officer, because no one questioned it till now.

*sips tea* I will just be ignored but I think you are trying to nuke the situation down to the minutia.

Amanal is likely right and all of us were doing it wrong but that is likely do to the combination of it being a While and After ability. lesson learned.

SO the proper timing is directly after the roll before modification. Leave it at that and move on. Even FFG has not corrected people it seems at their own tournaments.

Keep in mind I was doing it wrong too. I just noticed the text on he card that changed when it was to be used and for some reason a little light came on with the realisation I was doing it wrong.

The thing is though often we just skim read these things: "Intel officer = discard a defense token to spend it." so simple and easy right? So you then don't read it close enough to see it isn't quite like that.

# Took out third person in text and corrected a spelling error.

Keep in mind Amanal was doing it wrong too. I just noticed the test on he card that changed when it was to be used and for some reason a little light came on with the realisation I was doing it wrong.

The thing is though often we just skim read these things: "Intel officer = discard a defense token to spend it." so simple and easy right? So you then don't read it close enough to see it isn't quite like that.

It was the "While" I think. That is what we have trained our mind to read. I don't think there are very many cards with multiple keyword rules.

I think people are misunderstanding what I said?

Everything has a timing window, everything tells you when it can or cannot be used? no?

Can you Engine Tech at any time?

Can you Tarkin at any time?

Can you Han Solo at any time?

That is what I meant with everything has a timing window.

Intel Officer must be used after you roll the dice (You cannot use it before you roll the dice), and before the defender spends Defense tokens (it is to late to use it now). that is its timing window, honestly thought I was explaining what I meant better, clearly I was not.

Timing Window, what is that? Please provide a page number and reference, this is a rules discussion and you should really be able to use terms used in the rulebook to explain your opinions. Why does the dice roll start in step 2 of an attack and end when you start step 4? Why is step 2 not completed and resolved when you start step 3? How do you resolve step 2 if it "co-exists" with step 3?

Am I to understand that you are referring to the rules for "Effect and Timing on Page 5"? If that is our "window" then we have 5 "window" like effects that seem to be relevant to this topic:

Page 5, Effects and Timing:

Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve. This timing is usually specified within the effect, though some effects use the more specific timing described in this section.

• A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

• A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

• A “before” effect occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

• An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

So Tarkin, Han Solo, Redundant Shielding and so on resolves at the timing specified.They are covered by the initial statement in the section.

Engine Techs: After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a 1-speed maneuver. So you have to use Engine Techs right after the initial Maneuver and before you allow the game to proceed to either the next ships activation or we start the Squadron Phase. Can I use Engine Techs after you reveal a Command Dial or move a Squadron? That is still immediately after the maneuver, even though it is in the next step of the game.

This is what most of us are struggling with in your reply. If I rolled my dice and then played "Leading Shots" you would allow me to use Intel Officer yet I suspect that after you had moved one of your Squadrons or Flipped a Dial on a ship you would protest my use of Engine Techs.

Another way to look at it:

If IO was meant to be used at any time during the modify dice step, wouldn't it say, y'know, "While attacking, during the modify dice step ,"?

The modify dice step is a distinct, well-defined time window. There is no basis anywhere in the rules for equating this step to simply "what happens after rolling dice", which is what TEK seems to be arguing. Adding, rerolling and spending dice doesn't happen "after you roll your attack pool", it happens "during the modify dice step".

Per the RRG and per common sense, "after you roll your attack pool," can only be read as meaning "before you do anything else", i.e. "before you proceed to the modify dice step".

I have certainly been doing IO wrong - applying it in the modify step.

But the game text is clear enough, so I'll do it right from now.

Likewise.

THIS is what should be faqed. Not because its unclear, but because bad habits need correcting worldwide.

Its not surprising that eastern is entrenched on not changing. He wont be the only one.

Per the RRG and per common sense, "after you roll your attack pool," can only be read as meaning "before you do anything else", i.e. "before you proceed to the modify dice step".

Or you can read the first bit and see that it says to resolve the following steps. Resolve in this context is probably meaning that you complete each step. So I am not convinced need you need common sense.

Per the RRG and per common sense, "after you roll your attack pool," can only be read as meaning "before you do anything else", i.e. "before you proceed to the modify dice step".

Or you can read the first bit and see that it says to resolve the following steps. Resolve in this context is probably meaning that you complete each step. So I am not convinced need you need common sense.

I agree - you don't need it. I only meant that a strict reading of the RRG, and a "common sense" / "natural language" / "logic" interpretation approach, each carried out independently, would both invariably lead to the same conclusion.

Eastern, maybe it would be easiest for you to think of it as upgrades creating their own timing window at the specified point in the turn timing. Think of it as each card can do this and you must apply the timing of it's effect as literally as possible from the instructions on the card.

Hello. I have a different question concerning the use of the Intel Officer:

The card says that you may 'choose 1 defense token'. Does it mean 1 type of defense token or one specific defense token? For example, if you use IO against an MC30c and target the redirect token, can the MC30c use the other redirect token and not discard anything, or must it discard a redirect token regardless of which is used?

One specific defense token. It need not belong to the defending ship or squadron.

Very interesting. That means Demo with IO and Ordnance Experts + Screed has always been played wrong.

So you must roll, use IO, and THEN use OE and Screed. This can really make a difference on the second and third taps.

This can really make a difference on the second and third taps.

Kind of. I mean, if you're going for the one-shot*, you should pretty well always IO on the first and second tap. That's the only way to ensure they only use brace (or redirect if brace is redundant) once through all three taps. The only exception would be, I guess, an MC30 or something where the IO didn't matter much anyway.

That said, if you don't one-shot the target, then yes, the outcome is different in that it comes out the other side with brace intact.

_{*inb4 nomenclature argument}