@zerotc Thanks for the write-up and PSA - you're a gentleman and a statistician
A Warning on Weighted 3rd Party Dice
31 minutes ago, Wiredin said:well since this thread is back from the dead...
I recently bought these off Amazon and I am awaiting delivery. bought 6x6 of them
They look pretty cool, a little larger than the normal dice and a bit more rounded, and come from the UK... they may run into the same issues as the original dice mentioned in this post.
That being said, a bunch of locals have bought into the Nerd-X dice ( http://nerd-x.de/Wuerfel/X-Wing/transparent-X-Wing-dice-1-set-new-Design::1076.html?language=en ) and they seem to roll pretty average for the ones that use them. One guy can't get a break with them to save his life, so I have no problems with him using them.
I also ordered a 3x3 set of these.
https://www.dieharddice.com/products/Star-Wing-Dice-Set-Battleworn-p76840741
My FFG coredice have been pretty good though. I wouldn't say they betray me a lot... however I do think I got 2-3 green dice that are just constantly in my favor. They have kept me alive longer than I should have in most games because I fly like a doofus. I have no experience with regional dice as I haven't flown in one yet.
The nerd-x ones are really good, and gorgeous. I have a couple sets myself of those! They seem to roll pretty fair.
I also have some of the die hard dice - they REALLY have some heft! To the point of it feeling weird rolling plastic dice after. Just be careful on the Die Hard ones, don't grab a handful and shake them up too much, the points on each die will eventually dig out the plastic coloring in the other dice. Tough lesson, I roll them one at a time or with separate hands now. Also, don't roll them onto the battlefield near ships... enough heft to really move things around!
1 hour ago, jonnyd said:The nerd-x ones are really good, and gorgeous. I have a couple sets myself of those! They seem to roll pretty fair.
I also have some of the die hard dice - they REALLY have some heft! To the point of it feeling weird rolling plastic dice after. Just be careful on the Die Hard ones, don't grab a handful and shake them up too much, the points on each die will eventually dig out the plastic coloring in the other dice. Tough lesson, I roll them one at a time or with separate hands now. Also, don't roll them onto the battlefield near ships... enough heft to really move things around!
Yea, the Nerd-X ones seem really average for rolling, but they sure are pretty.
For the Die Hard dice I plan on using the dice rolling trays because I don't want to damage or move ships around. A lot of us have custom painted ships and we all agreed not to allow metal templates for the possible damage to the mini's if they accidentally get bumped (it does happen).
The weighted dice have no effect on short game i.e. a few rolls. But after 90 minutes of rolls, if you change 1 blank to an evade or hit, that can change the game. Kill a ship before it fires, or survive a round longer. That slight edge is all professional gamblers look for in Vegas. Craps players practice over and over tossing dice just right. "A Golden Shooter" is what they are called. They arent force users able to go on 50+ rolls every time before seven-out, but the house edge is so small, that if you can change 1 roll out of I think 47. The edge dips into the players favor. That's it. 1 out of 47 rolls. If you can change that everytime you play, then in the long run, you win. Some days you lose everything, some days you win everything, but when all said and done, math says you win.
3 hours ago, Wiredin said:Yea, the Nerd-X ones seem really average for rolling, but they sure are pretty.
The Nerd-X black dice are gorgeous. They're the only third-party dice I have that I sincerely wish I could use in official events. (The white ones are good, too, but ... ) I'm glad I play a good amount of casual, so I can use them.
I have 12/12 transparent red/green from a fairly early Kickstarter. I like them, too, but the [evade], in particular, is a little hard to parse quickly.
All of my third-party dice seem to roll pretty fair ... but, given it's me that mostly rolls them, that probably means they're weighted heavily in my favor.
23 minutes ago, wurms said:Craps players practice over and over tossing dice just right.
That's because craps players are superstitious morons. (I'm allowed to say that, because I'm a craps player.)
There's very little worse than having fun at a hot-rolling table, and having it griii-iii-iii-iiind to slow-mo in molasses because some idiot thinks he can manipulate the dice. Like a casino is really going to allow you to stack the dice, if there were actually any possible way to manipulate them. If it were even conceivably possible, casinos would mandate a five-second time limit on throws so fast it would spin the roulette wheel.
Quotethe house edge is so small, that if you can change 1 roll out of I think 47. The edge dips into the players favor.
That may (or may not) be true. (As an absolute, it's certainly not true, because different bets on the spread, and different overall strategies, have different house edges.) But it doesn't matter if it's true, because it isn't possible to manipulate 1-in-1000 rolls, much less 1-in-47.
Stop wasting time, stupid superstitious craps players, and roll the **** dice.
12 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:If it were even conceivably possible, casinos would mandate a five-second time limit on throws so fast it would spin the roulette wheel.
Next you're going to tell me I can't outsmart doctors by clicking on sketchy internet ads.
5 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:That's because craps players are superstitious morons. (I'm allowed to say that, because I'm a craps player.)
There's very little worse than having fun at a hot-rolling table, and having it griii-iii-iii-iiind to slow-mo in molasses because some idiot thinks he can manipulate the dice. Like a casino is really going to allow you to stack the dice, if there were actually any possible way to manipulate them. If it were even conceivably possible, casinos would mandate a five-second time limit on throws so fast it would spin the roulette wheel.
That may (or may not) be true. (As an absolute, it's certainly not true, because different bets on the spread, and different overall strategies, have different house edges.) But it doesn't matter if it's true, because it isn't possible to manipulate 1-in-1000 rolls, much less 1-in-47.
Stop wasting time, stupid superstitious craps players, and roll the **** dice.
I hear ya! Last time I was in Vegas, some dude set the dice, drew a circle with them 5 times, tapped 3 times, then mumbled some prayer, then shot the dice. WTF! Think he rolled like 12 times in 30 minutes. I couldnt take it and had to move to another table.
Basically dice controllers want to, for instance, have the 6 comes up as often as the 7.
Math says a 6 comes up five times for every six times a 7 comes up. A Place6 bet of $6 wins you $35 ($7winnings x 5), but the Casino wins $36 ($6 bet x 6) for a $1 loss for you.
If the 6 and the 7 come up equally (six times each), you win $42 and the casino wins $36. A profit of $6 for you.
So, if you can manipulate the dice enough, so you win in the long run, the edge is for you. Im not saying its possible, just pointing out that is what those crazy bastards try to do!
Back to weighted dice. It is the same concept, changing just a small percentage over the entire game, enough so that one roll is in your favor, could swing the edge to you instead of it being equal for both opponents. It won't be noticeable to the eye, but it can be a problem.
1 hour ago, wurms said:Back to weighted dice. It is the same concept, changing just a small percentage over the entire game, enough so that one roll is in your favor, could swing the edge to you instead of it being equal for both opponents. It won't be noticeable to the eye, but it can be a problem.
Fully agree. I do wish it weren't so arbitrary (but I don't really have a better idea). My 2014 Regionals dice are riddled with bubbles. I find it difficult to believe they are inherently less biased than my black Nerd-X dice. But I'm allowed to use the bubbled dice, and not allowed to use the black dice. C'est la vie.
1 hour ago, mxlm said:Next you're going to tell me I can't outsmart doctors by clicking on sketchy internet ads.
One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite books regarding probability and statistical anomaly.
"Simple mathematics tells us that the population of the Universe must be zero. Why? Well given that the volume of the universe is infinite there must be an infinite number of worlds. But not all of them are populated; therefore only a finite number are. Any finite number divided by infinity is as close to zero as makes no odds, therefore we can round the average population of the Universe to zero, and so the total population must be zero". - The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams.
I personally do not believe that any legitimate third party dice a inherently "loaded", I do believe it is possible to obtain them for X-Wing and also believe that anyone that uses them should be tied to a stake and forced to "appreciate" 48 non-stop hours of Vogon poetry.
1 hour ago, mxlm said:Next you're going to tell me I can't outsmart doctors by clicking on sketchy internet ads.
I'm not going to say it, because Doctors don't want you to know it...
I have a couple of sets of translucent 3rd party dice, from 2 different places (6 of each from each), and they seem to be no better nor any worse than any of my FFG dice (starters or Regionals). My brother has the same number of 3rd party dice, in the same amounts as I do, and his experiences are the same: no better, no worse.
Some of my 'hottest' dice are from starter boxes.
Sometimes dice are skewed - that's just part of mass production. If you are 'lucky' enough to get several that seem unbalanced then I'd say disperse them or switch them out, but that's up to each player.
4 hours ago, thatdave said:Some of my 'hottest' dice are from starter boxes.
Do people really attempt to select biased dice to play with? Might be time to start insisting on a shared dice pool when I play ...
On 5/19/2017 at 7:33 PM, Danomight said:Do people really attempt to select biased dice to play with? Might be time to start insisting on a shared dice pool when I play ...
I'm not saying I personally have sorted thru my dice trying to find ones with a bias. What I'm saying is, based on my experiences with my assortment of dice - from basic box dice to 3rd party to dice won at regionals - that the basic box dice are 'at least as good' we'll say, as any of my dice.
But I am sure there are some out there that have done the very thing you are implying. NONE of the dice we use in this game are precision manufactured and tested for balance a la Vegas craps dice. My main point is that there are variances in all the dice, regardless of their sources . Some players are going to seek to take advantage of this. Most are not. But to try to deny or justify one dice set over another, and try to claim fairness, is an unfair assessment - unless the dice manufacturing follows very strict protocol. But that won't happen as it is a relatively costly endeavor.
Shared dice pools is an option and allowable under the rules. And, certainly at FFG sanctioned events, 3rd party dice are technically illegal for use. If you think something is sketchy, then by all means insist on sharing. I will gladly share my dice, and have, regardless of which ones I happen to be playing with (though they are typically regionals dice admittedly).
My first set of Battleworn Die Hard dice showed up as well as the Amazon black sparkle dice....
The Amazon dice are larger than the factory dice, a lot lighter, and in general feel cheap. I straight up don't like them. Without doing the math I can honestly say they seem to roll in my favor exceeding well. I ditched them after the second game I played with them this past weekend as I was rolling triple crit way too often to feel like they are fair. A fistfull of them is also a little unwieldy due to the larger size.... yea I just straight up don't like these.
The Die Hard Battleworn dice are beautiful and closer to the FFG dice in terms of size. They roll incredibly average on the offense side, once again just from observing during play. The evade dice love to roll blanks... rolled trip blanks at least twice a game out of 7 so far...the green dice are always fickle, but this is terrible. I do love the feel of them, the quality of the product, and the weight. I ordered another set and have been in contact for a third set so I have one in each finish. They do hit the table with a good thunk, and I'm worried about the additional wear on the playmats. I have brought out a plastic tub from my small part organizer I use to transport my stuff just to roll the dice in. The locals have had no issues with me using these dice at this time.
I was going to order up some Nerd-X dice, but for the price of a complete set of Nerd-X transparent dice shipped to me here in Canada I can order 3 sets of 6 (so 18 total dice) of the Die Hard Dice.