While most of this discussion has focused on determining exactly how useful Finn will be on non-Rey ships, can we take a moment to talk about how freaking good he will be on Rey?

no because that's way too obvious

forced synergy like that, where it's only good on one thing (so far), isn't a sign of good game design imo

I like when thematic combinations are actually incentivized (Kyle/Jan anyone?). I don't see how making a game that reflects the source material is "forced" or not good game design.

Granted, that doesn't mean making it so restrictive other combinations are not possible, which I can see that argument being made against Finn in the current state of the game. However, as mentioned above, Finn is an upgrade that very clearly WILL be good in other combinations, once a few things inevitably fall into place.

I'm going to laugh (and necro this thread) when the "nerf Rey/Finn combo" threads start popping up.

Finn is not an instant/easy upgrade like Predator or PTL. But we shouldn't be comparing him EPTs. Crew usually needs other abilities to truly shine. Again, Finn is not as straight forward as something like Recon Specialist. He carries with him a higher risk/reward factor. I'm looking forward to trying him out and testing some new combos.

Imp and Scum have been getting instant/easy upgrades lately, though. Rebels have gotten garbage like R3 and overpriced upgrades like Finn.

It's been mentioned already, but it bears repeating. Unlike R3, there are existing upgrade combos that make Finn worth his cost but are simply waiting for a chassis. Sensor Cluster and Autothrusters would make Finn's defensive benefit easier to trigger. Once we have a Rebel crew carrier with a tech slot or native boost, Finn's cost will be more appropriate. Until then he has his place on Rey and Lone Wolf Falcons.

I can think of an (quite expensive) Ibtisam build with Finn alongside Jan Ors. Should be fun, though. 5 primary attack (6 at range 1)? Yes, please.

I'm going to laugh (and necro this thread) when the "nerf Rey/Finn combo" threads start popping up.

Finn is not an instant/easy upgrade like Predator or PTL. But we shouldn't be comparing him EPTs. Crew usually needs other abilities to truly shine. Again, Finn is not as straight forward as something like Recon Specialist. He carries with him a higher risk/reward factor. I'm looking forward to trying him out and testing some new combos.

Imp and Scum have been getting instant/easy upgrades lately, though. Rebels have gotten garbage like R3 and overpriced upgrades like Finn.

It's been mentioned already, but it bears repeating. Unlike R3, there are existing upgrade combos that make Finn worth his cost but are simply waiting for a chassis. Sensor Cluster and Autothrusters would make Finn's defensive benefit easier to trigger. Once we have a Rebel crew carrier with a tech slot or native boost, Finn's cost will be more appropriate. Until then he has his place on Rey and Lone Wolf Falcons.

Assuming that ever happens. Instead we could have something like Zuckuss that Just Works.

Zuckuss needs lots of help to really work actually >_>

While most of this discussion has focused on determining exactly how useful Finn will be on non-Rey ships, can we take a moment to talk about how freaking good he will be on Rey?

no because that's way too obvious

forced synergy like that, where it's only good on one thing (so far), isn't a sign of good game design imo

I like when thematic combinations are actually incentivized (Kyle/Jan anyone?). I don't see how making a game that reflects the source material is "forced" or not good game design.

Granted, that doesn't mean making it so restrictive other combinations are not possible, which I can see that argument being made against Finn in the current state of the game. However, as mentioned above, Finn is an upgrade that very clearly WILL be good in other combinations, once a few things inevitably fall into place.

incentivized combos aren't a problem

the problem is he's so goddamn pricey that said incentivized combo is about the only effective use of him

so far

we're waiting for things we don't know exist to make him decent outside of the one combo they clearly designed him for

which, imo, is bad design

Hm....good thought catching Sensor Cluster and Weapons Guidance. As yet, there's no rebel ship with crew and a tech slot - I'd imagine the Resistance Transport (the Mk2 B-wing thing) would be your candidate.

At the same time; I'm kind of amused that people are declaring Finn 'dead on arrival'. Yes, if you want to use him with no extra work, he's limited to going with Rey on the Falcon. But firstly that is, narratively, where he should be, and secondly, there are other cards which rarely see use other than with a specific pilot. When's the last time anyone but Biggs took R4-D6 out of the shop, for example?

Even if you consider him to be 'Rey Only', the fact remains that with Rey he's bloody good. For 5 points, turning the Millenium Falcon into a 4-dice attack, agility 2 ship is really not bad, especially since it still leaves both modification slot, elite pilot talent, and action free for you to do other shenanigans with.

And, as noted, there are other uses. I can see Ibitsam being one, and the Ghost (bugger the defence die and just take a 5-dice attack) as the other.

It's not the same as a 4 dice attack, because a 4 dice attack doesn't automatically have one blank die. It also only works in arc.

Agreed. But so does a cannon, or a missile, or most weapon upgrades. Punishing One gives you an idea how much you should be paying for a flat extra die one a 360' attack, and that's without the 'side benefit' of improved agility.

While most of this discussion has focused on determining exactly how useful Finn will be on non-Rey ships, can we take a moment to talk about how freaking good he will be on Rey?

no because that's way too obvious

forced synergy like that, where it's only good on one thing (so far), isn't a sign of good game design imo

I like when thematic combinations are actually incentivized (Kyle/Jan anyone?). I don't see how making a game that reflects the source material is "forced" or not good game design.

Granted, that doesn't mean making it so restrictive other combinations are not possible, which I can see that argument being made against Finn in the current state of the game. However, as mentioned above, Finn is an upgrade that very clearly WILL be good in other combinations, once a few things inevitably fall into place.

We've reached a point in the game where the majority of cards released, if they aren't straight terrible, will fit into a niche or obvious build. Finn will be a very good card in just a few places, and that's good. The design needs to continue down this path. Otherwise we get omniversatile upgrades like push the limit or Predator or Zuckuss that can be used on the majority of craft with the slot and that leads to counters like Black Market Slicer Tools because those ships become really prevalent.

It's 100% okay that this is best in Rey and Old Han. It will still find a place on ships with Target Lock and a few other niches, but that's a hallmark of careful design. If this were 2 or 3 points like everyone is crying out for it to be, we'd see it everywhere, aND we have enough cards like that.

Granted, that doesn't mean making it so restrictive other combinations are not possible, which I can see that argument being made against Finn in the current state of the game. However, as mentioned above, Finn is an upgrade that very clearly WILL be good in other combinations, once a few things inevitably fall into place.

We've reached a point in the game where the majority of cards released, if they aren't straight terrible, will fit into a niche or obvious build.

not necessarily

for example, Rey (crew) is a very solid card that can slot into a quite a few ships

and any number of x7 defenders (From 1-3) are a good inclusion in most squads

plus the bevy of very useful 1 point illicit upgrades

Agreed. But so does a cannon, or a missile, or most weapon upgrades. Punishing One gives you an idea how much you should be paying for a flat extra die one a 360' attack, and that's without the 'side benefit' of improved agility.

Also, at a certain point, extra dice on top of high dice totals are just devastating, because you enter the realm of throwing so many dice that even perfect defensive rolls cannot save high defense ships.

Indeed. The ability to go to 5 or more attack dice needs to be treated very carefully indeed.

I missed if this was mentioned in the 9 pages so far, but once we see some TFA-era Rebel crew ships (ie. Tech capable), that will open up Sensor Cluster or Weapons Guidance + Finn for either a guarenteed +1 Hit or +1 Evade for a Focus token. 7pts + crew and tech slot for a ship to do "X dice + 1 Hit" primary attacks. Hmm.

Really seems like FFG is pushing for the TFA-era ships "thing" is to do stuff with blanks.

Also, at a certain point, extra dice on top of high dice totals are just devastating, because you enter the realm of throwing so many dice that even perfect defensive rolls cannot save high defense ships.

FFG have been improving in this area to some extent as more recent "tough" ships like /x7 Defenders are very durable but can be worn down with weight of conventional fire. However, since FFG don't like to errata cards and would rather issue counter cards, the fact remains that appetite will remain for high-dice attacks, regardless of their impact on the rest of the meta.

BMST is a much more elegant fix than "moar dice!" as it gets around the high defense problem (there is no evading it, no arc needed, just be in range and stressed) however it still has the mechanics of an attack (must roll a hit/crit on an attack die, much like any normal attack)

Moar dice just ends up in an arms race that would make Oppenhiemer cry and ends up with Decimators and Ghosts being relegated to showpieces or just melted on the battlefield.

there really shouldn't be any appetite for high-dice attacks after torp scouts and fixed ordnance

like kris said, stuff like BMSTs are a much better solution (as all "high-dice" do is **** over non-aces worse)

but if you don't actually have to roll dice, though, like with the good bombs

How is this being compared to things like an extra attack on a PWT, like the punishing one title? It's in arc only, and it adds a blank. A blank guys. In arc. Treating this card like it just adds +1 attack and +1 agility to whatever ship it's on doesn't make sense.

I missed if this was mentioned in the 9 pages so far, but once we see some TFA-era Rebel crew ships (ie. Tech capable), that will open up Sensor Cluster or Weapons Guidance + Finn for either a guarenteed +1 Hit or +1 Evade for a Focus token. 7pts + crew and tech slot for a ship to do "X dice + 1 Hit" primary attacks. Hmm.

Really seems like FFG is pushing for the TFA-era ships "thing" is to do stuff with blanks.

Mentioned on last page (these threads are getting really long and talking in circles, wouldn't expect you to read whole thing)

Sensor cluster is the way to go. You need some way to take advantage of Finn's defensive benefit (TL takes care of offense). If you have system slot take FCS, if another crew take Rey. Should hit hard and be tanky regardless. Definitely worth the 7 points.

How is this being compared to things like an extra attack on a PWT, like the punishing one title? It's in arc only, and it adds a blank. A blank guys. In arc. Treating this card like it just adds +1 attack and +1 agility to whatever ship it's on doesn't make sense.

Finn is an oddball card. Adding dice (even blanks) to both firepower and agility is potentially powerful if you have rerolls. But as has already been discussed, defensive rerolls are thin on the ground. Finn is extremely situational. When the stars align, he can really boost the ship he is on, otherwise he is gonna be expensive and sucky.

This is why there is such a debate, Finn's situationalness (if that is even a word) makes it hard to value him objectively. If you believe that you can pull off Finn's requirements more than a couple of times per game, he is a pretty powerful card. If you don't then he is pretty much an expensive waste of a crew slot.

If I had to guess I'd say there's another card in the HotR pack that gives us rerolls of one kind or another. There's still cards here that we don't know anything about.

we're missing

1.) trick (would be my guess as to the synergy with blank dice)

2.) snap shot

3.) prow? thrusters

4.) what's his face resistance droid (Finn on ARCs plzplzplzplz)

5.) and Hot(?) Copilot(?)

everything else we know or can read from the front row

I'm going to laugh (and necro this thread) when the "nerf Rey/Finn combo" threads start popping up.

Finn is not an instant/easy upgrade like Predator or PTL. But we shouldn't be comparing him EPTs. Crew usually needs other abilities to truly shine. Again, Finn is not as straight forward as something like Recon Specialist. He carries with him a higher risk/reward factor. I'm looking forward to trying him out and testing some new combos.

I don't think that anyone is saying that Rey/Finn won't be an awesome combo. The complaints about Finn are all based on trying to use him on something other than Rey. Rey (and possible future ships/pilots) seem to be the reason that he is as expensive as he is.

Even if you consider him to be 'Rey Only', the fact remains that with Rey he's bloody good. For 5 points, turning the Millenium Falcon into a 4-dice attack, agility 2 ship is really not bad, especially since it still leaves both modification slot, elite pilot talent, and action free for you to do other shenanigans with.

And, as noted, there are other uses. I can see Ibitsam being one, and the Ghost (bugger the defence die and just take a 5-dice attack) as the other.

IMO Lando is still better than the finn/rey combo defensively. With lando you are still rolling two dice looking for evades and arent reliant on the arc. Plus you get the evade if you take the title. Plus lando is 2 points less. I guess those two points go into the attack die in this situation but you need something outside rey to combo with that.

But I also think lando is drastically under valued in this game to players. I prefer him over C-3PO

Even if you consider him to be 'Rey Only', the fact remains that with Rey he's bloody good. For 5 points, turning the Millenium Falcon into a 4-dice attack, agility 2 ship is really not bad, especially since it still leaves both modification slot, elite pilot talent, and action free for you to do other shenanigans with.

And, as noted, there are other uses. I can see Ibitsam being one, and the Ghost (bugger the defence die and just take a 5-dice attack) as the other.

IMO Lando is still better than the finn/rey combo defensively. With lando you are still rolling two dice looking for evades and arent reliant on the arc. Plus you get the evade if you take the title. Plus lando is 2 points less. I guess those two points go into the attack die in this situation but you need something outside rey to combo with that.

But I also think lando is drastically under valued in this game to players. I prefer him over C-3PO

green dice are never undervalued enough

honestly, Finn's defensive effect is the same as Lando's effect for me except it doesn't waste an action

Even if you consider him to be 'Rey Only', the fact remains that with Rey he's bloody good. For 5 points, turning the Millenium Falcon into a 4-dice attack, agility 2 ship is really not bad, especially since it still leaves both modification slot, elite pilot talent, and action free for you to do other shenanigans with.

And, as noted, there are other uses. I can see Ibitsam being one, and the Ghost (bugger the defence die and just take a 5-dice attack) as the other.

IMO Lando is still better than the finn/rey combo defensively. With lando you are still rolling two dice looking for evades and arent reliant on the arc. Plus you get the evade if you take the title. Plus lando is 2 points less. I guess those two points go into the attack die in this situation but you need something outside rey to combo with that.

But I also think lando is drastically under valued in this game to players. I prefer him over C-3PO

Lando is at most going to give you two tokens. Usually, you'll end up with one. Sometimes you'll end up with none. He takes an action to use. The Rey/Finn combo can work multiple times in a round and is action independent.

If you are using the new Falcon title on Rey, you are probably going to end up with a lot of rounds that you don't get an action while trying to keep your target in arc. Kanan should get around this, but I'd rather spend my action on a single sure thing focus token than taking a gamble with Lando.