You know, what I find ironic is, after all the saying "No" to contributions from fans and licensees, all the back and forth writers have had to go through with GW while working for Flame, Hogshead, BL, FFG. After all that energy in approvals, disapprovals, modifications and sign-off to achieve what in terms of the IP? To preserve or maintain what?

Would GW have actually done itself a disservice _at all_ if they had said "Yes go for it, make it your own, just remember to say thanks, we retcon everything periodically anyway and the IP boat sailed years ago anyway with the likes of Blizzard"

Could it be any more of a limping zomboid RPG legacy than it is now? Great job GW (thumbs up)

Hi all,

Well the inevitable has happened. Lessons learned:

1. The dice mechanic is extremely good but not necessary for Warhammer. Having played Star Wars a lot, I can honestly say that 3rd edition is far too clunky and the card bloat was terrible and badly managed. I have been GMing 2nd edition and really enjoying it again.

2. The Old World is where it should be set, the Age of Sigmar has no roleplaying value whatsoever, nada, nil, zippo!

3.Unfortunately the Star Wars RPG's are what 3rd edition should have been.

4. Maybe GW will look at RPG's again, but I wouldn't hold out much hope. The only question is whether anybody can afford to take on the license fees and come up with completely new products to make the fees worthwhile. A big ask in my opinion!

I think this is a very shallow assessment, its the "logical" conclusion but it's actually not at all what the problem with WFRPG was. We were just talking about this in another threat but there was no issue with cards, components, dice or anything else. This game could have been very successful exactly as it is right now and in fact would have been had it not been for some poor business decisions which is where most of the failure took place.

For one the game was way too expensive. In gaming terms this made the game inaccessible to a lot of people, in particular young people. The gaming community is very fickle, make something expensive (inaccessible) and they will crap all over your product out of spite and that is EXACTLY what happened with WFRPG. Up until the day the core set was actually released the excitement and anticipation of the game was insane, there wasn't a negative word printed about the game anywhere. The moment the price for the core set was released, the internet went crazy. People where giving the game terrible reviews before it was physically possible to own a copy.

The next thing was what you actually got for your money. To have a game that costs hundreds of dollars that only supports a group of 3 players was just icing on the stupidity cake. It was like a RPG with micro-transaction where not only was it expensive to buy, but you didn't get enough supplies to play it when you did and you need to spend over twice as much money to get a actual full game going. It was a ridiculous business model that was doomed for failure.

Finally and this was probably the biggest offender was that the books without the components where as expensive as the core sets with components which was just outrageous, especially since you ultimately ended up needing the books even after you bought the core sets.

When it was all said and done getting a proper game going cost about 3 to 5 times (depending on how many players you had) then even the most expensive RPG ever released to date. WFRPG is in fact the single most expensive RPG ever sold and in the end it was really nothing that amazingly special. It was interesting, different and certainly better than many, but not as good as some, but it was insanely expensive.

This was the entire issue with WFRPG. If it costs half as much to get into the game, they would have had no problems getting people to buy into it and play it.

I think this is a very shallow assessment, its the "logical" conclusion but it's actually not at all what the problem with WFRPG was. We were just talking about this in another threat but there was no issue with cards, components, dice or anything else.

If the inclusion of cards, dice and chits raises the price of the core box to the point where it's prohibitively expensive, isn't that a problem with the components? Surely FFG can't be expected to sell their games at a loss. Maybe 3e should be considered a luxury RPG product.

Several years ago we discussed the "hassle factor" of the components, and IIRC those who didn't mind them tended to have strong collector/sorter personalities in other areas of their gaming. Trust me, for many people who don't enjoy sorting and collecting it feels like a hassle.

Several years ago we discussed the "hassle factor" of the components, and IIRC those who didn't mind them tended to have strong collector/sorter personalities in other areas of their gaming. Trust me, for many people who don't enjoy sorting and collecting it feels like a hassle.

This "hassle factor" was actually a bigger factor for me than the cost. The stuff just didn't seem to me to add enough value to the game to make them worthwhile.

Several years ago we discussed the "hassle factor" of the components, and IIRC those who didn't mind them tended to have strong collector/sorter personalities in other areas of their gaming. Trust me, for many people who don't enjoy sorting and collecting it feels like a hassle.

This "hassle factor" was actually a bigger factor for me than the cost. The stuff just didn't seem to me to add enough value to the game to make them worthwhile.

Just curious, if cost was not a factor, did you buy into the game.. get a core set, the books and kits?

Just curious, if cost was not a factor, did you buy into the game.. get a core set, the books and kits?

I received a comp core box for writing and playtesting, and read friends' copies of several supplements. The people who I played with didn't find the components added much, so given my aversion to tidying and sorting I wasn't especially motivated to make it work. It's quite probable that I didn't get as much from the 3e system as a someone who's determined to adopt it, or who enjoys managing the components (I've GM'd about 6 sessions using just the core box, and played 2 sessions).

Hi all,

Well the inevitable has happened. Lessons learned:

1. The dice mechanic is extremely good but not necessary for Warhammer. Having played Star Wars a lot, I can honestly say that 3rd edition is far too clunky and the card bloat was terrible and badly managed. I have been GMing 2nd edition and really enjoying it again.

2. The Old World is where it should be set, the Age of Sigmar has no roleplaying value whatsoever, nada, nil, zippo!

3.Unfortunately the Star Wars RPG's are what 3rd edition should have been.

4. Maybe GW will look at RPG's again, but I wouldn't hold out much hope. The only question is whether anybody can afford to take on the license fees and come up with completely new products to make the fees worthwhile. A big ask in my opinion!

I think this is a very shallow assessment, its the "logical" conclusion but it's actually not at all what the problem with WFRPG was. We were just talking about this in another threat but there was no issue with cards, components, dice or anything else. This game could have been very successful exactly as it is right now and in fact would have been had it not been for some poor business decisions which is where most of the failure took place.

For one the game was way too expensive. In gaming terms this made the game inaccessible to a lot of people, in particular young people. The gaming community is very fickle, make something expensive (inaccessible) and they will crap all over your product out of spite and that is EXACTLY what happened with WFRPG. Up until the day the core set was actually released the excitement and anticipation of the game was insane, there wasn't a negative word printed about the game anywhere. The moment the price for the core set was released, the internet went crazy. People where giving the game terrible reviews before it was physically possible to own a copy.

The next thing was what you actually got for your money. To have a game that costs hundreds of dollars that only supports a group of 3 players was just icing on the stupidity cake. It was like a RPG with micro-transaction where not only was it expensive to buy, but you didn't get enough supplies to play it when you did and you need to spend over twice as much money to get a actual full game going. It was a ridiculous business model that was doomed for failure.

Finally and this was probably the biggest offender was that the books without the components where as expensive as the core sets with components which was just outrageous, especially since you ultimately ended up needing the books even after you bought the core sets.

When it was all said and done getting a proper game going cost about 3 to 5 times (depending on how many players you had) then even the most expensive RPG ever released to date. WFRPG is in fact the single most expensive RPG ever sold and in the end it was really nothing that amazingly special. It was interesting, different and certainly better than many, but not as good as some, but it was insanely expensive.

This was the entire issue with WFRPG. If it costs half as much to get into the game, they would have had no problems getting people to buy into it and play it.

Also, the supplements were 50 bucks, MSRP. Other systems have 40 dollar supplements. So it's 10 extra dollars and again you get a bunch of components for your money. WFRP was expensive, yes, but it's not actually that much more expensive than other games. I know people complain about them putting rules for certain things in supplements, but it's usually ironically in the same rant about wanting to pay money for new supplements for the older edition.

Everyone who sustained a campaign with it needed to develop their own styles of haptic strategies to manage the (literally) moving parts. And if not inclined to, motivation would soon dwindle. I would be surprised to hear anyone disagree with that.

This version was a grand experiment. For me its several flavours of awesome but I always appreciate the dismay of others that WFRP was taken on such a detour. Though now it seems FFG's treatment of grognard sensibilities seems mild compared to GW's concluding agenda.

When 4th edition came out to get what you need to play it cost 114$ for the core books and came with no dice. (although you as many people as you want can play at a time.) Right now 5th ed. would be 150$ retail.

Just talk to SWRPG complestionist fans about price.

Core book, $60

GM screen, $20

6 x career books $180

Multiple Region Books $40 each (some of the best books, 3 at least, $120)

Adventures $30 each (2-3 so $60)

Total: $440... for 1 of the game lines!

All there is $1320 (great number) approximately, once the entire line is complete, if you get everything

Oh, better get dice too $15each set (need 3-4 minimum) $60

Adversary decks are good too, there's $90 or more

Beginner boxes are great, there's another $120

Let's call it a round $1700... not everyone is that crazy, but if you want to get the full library then there you have it.

I have never understood the complaint of the games components being in the way. Have these people never played an RPG before? The components were little more than text blocks for available actions and a way to keep track of what your character had access to, what they don't have access to (recharging) their HP pool, fatigue, stress, and distance all at a glance. For every single person at the table. It ate up more table space, I will give you that, especially if people played with all their skill cards laid out in front of them (protip: only charging skills and cards you are actively playing should hit the table in front of you, the rest should be in your hand). In short, all the bits and bobs for the most part were just modular character sheets with all the reference work removed so you know exactly what did what at any point in time. The stand-up pieces were nice for knowing who was tangling with what in an abstract, the location cards were great for reminding people that they were fighting somewhere special and that it can effect their battle in someway. The initiative track is something that you have to deal with in every RPG I have played, so complaining about here seems odd.

The timer mechanic being used to advance mysteries and chases was fantastic. The extra abilities people gained for characters were also great. The social skills were exceptionally well done with things like 'I Know a Guy' getting ridiculous levels of use by my more roguish players.

WHFRP handled a lot of things really well. Combat though, while highly narrative, was probably one of the weakest parts of the system. (Stat+wep+bonuses) - (tough+soak+bonuses) = Wound result (minimum of 1 on a hit). To be fair, once you understood that two of those basically don't change for a character much at all if they are using a weapon they like it still makes a bit clunky. Once you get the hang of it, it is fast paced enough and some of the situations are truly memorable, but the flow is a bit off. Having a dwarf bury a hand axe in a troll's skull and finishing it off with a triumphant yell as a couple of Ungors look on in horror shaking their moral is great, then having those same hand axes get stuck in the troll's head so he can't pull them out (curse you chaos star) adds to the fun. Luckily his partners managed to drop a couple of Ungors causing the rest to flee, but that could have turned nasty.

All in all, WFRP 3e is probably the absolute best fantasy themed RPG I have played.

What hurt it was not how the components were used though. It was two things mainly. 1. The price for entry when it first came out drug its name through the mud especially given the limited amount of support available for a steady group (three players). 2. The EXISTENCE of those physical components for so long with no real alternative to play without them when the world was moving to pdf and heavy virtual table top use.

This "hassle factor" was actually a bigger factor for me than the cost. The stuff just didn't seem to me to add enough value to the game to make them worthwhile.

Just curious, if cost was not a factor, did you buy into the game.. get a core set, the books and kits?

No, I never did. Like I said; based on what I knew of it (which I admit was almost entirely 2nd-hand), it just didn't seem to me that it would add enough value to the game to be worth dealing with.

This "hassle factor" was actually a bigger factor for me than the cost. The stuff just didn't seem to me to add enough value to the game to make them worthwhile.

Just curious, if cost was not a factor, did you buy into the game.. get a core set, the books and kits?

No, I never did. Like I said; based on what I knew of it (which I admit was almost entirely 2nd-hand), it just didn't seem to me that it would add enough value to the game to be worth dealing with.

Its kind of my point though, this game has been reviewed and talked about to death, but very few people actually purchased and played it. That hassle factor being the key point of every review, but its really not an issue, its actually a convenience that speeds up the game and makes it easier to run. It doesn't seem like it and people come to the logical conclusion that it doesn't but in practice, it works great, you just have to give it a try.

This "hassle factor" was actually a bigger factor for me than the cost. The stuff just didn't seem to me to add enough value to the game to make them worthwhile.

Just curious, if cost was not a factor, did you buy into the game.. get a core set, the books and kits?

No, I never did. Like I said; based on what I knew of it (which I admit was almost entirely 2nd-hand), it just didn't seem to me that it would add enough value to the game to be worth dealing with.

Its kind of my point though, this game has been reviewed and talked about to death, but very few people actually purchased and played it. That hassle factor being the key point of every review, but its really not an issue, its actually a convenience that speeds up the game and makes it easier to run. It doesn't seem like it and people come to the logical conclusion that it doesn't but in practice, it works great, you just have to give it a try.

I'll agree with this completely. Out of play managing the cards is a pain, but during play they are awesome. The mechanic of Reckless/Conservative with the double sided cards is fantastic, easy to use, quick to reference yet provides a depth of complexity to each card that simply doesn't fit on a single sheet of paper easily.

Its kind of my point though, this game has been reviewed and talked about to death, but very few people actually purchased and played it. That hassle factor being the key point of every review, but its really not an issue, its actually a convenience that speeds up the game and makes it easier to run. It doesn't seem like it and people come to the logical conclusion that it doesn't but in practice, it works great, you just have to give it a try.

I never read any reviews of it. I got a PDF of the main rulebook, read it, and promptly deleted it. My decision to stick with 2nd Edition would later be reinforced by two people who did play it; both of whom I'd played with for years, both of whom had similar mindsets to my own with regard to RPG's, and both of whom had likewise decided that it wasn't their cup of tea.

Now let me be clear about something: I'm not one of these people who goes around saying that 3rd Edition was an abominable ball of fail. Ok, maybe once or twice; but I'll freely admit that I was being hyperbolic and cranky because I, like many 2nd Edition fans, was really hoping that 3rd would just be an improvement to 2nd; bringing it more in line with the 40K RPGs (more varied weapon stats, more flavorful talents, etc). But I digress.

I can absolutely see and concede how the system would appeal to many gamers. I just didn't happen to be one of them. The main compliment I always hear about all the bits and bobs was that it made the game 'faster' and 'easier'. Well, neither myself nor my players ever found 2nd Edition to be 'slow' or 'difficult', so there wasn't a whole lot of incentive to spend a bunch of money and clutter up the table.

There's also the fact that the system seemed a little too compartmentalized for my tastes, but here I must emphasize the word 'seemed' as I never actually read through the myriad of cards. I concede that it might have been more fluid than it looked like; but again, I'd seen nothing in the system to make me believe that it was worth finding out.

I never read any reviews of it. I got a PDF of the main rulebook, read it, and promptly deleted it... saying that 3rd Edition was an abominable ball of fail. Ok, maybe once or twice;

I couldn't resist misquoting that forgive me. .

Its kind of my point though, this game has been reviewed and talked about to death, but very few people actually purchased and played it. That hassle factor being the key point of every review, but its really not an issue, its actually a convenience that speeds up the game and makes it easier to run. It doesn't seem like it and people come to the logical conclusion that it doesn't but in practice, it works great, you just have to give it a try.

Uh no, there are lots of people who bought and played the game and found it wasn't for them after giving it a fair chance. To claim otherwise is classic 3e fanboy denial.

Its kind of my point though, this game has been reviewed and talked about to death, but very few people actually purchased and played it. That hassle factor being the key point of every review, but its really not an issue, its actually a convenience that speeds up the game and makes it easier to run. It doesn't seem like it and people come to the logical conclusion that it doesn't but in practice, it works great, you just have to give it a try.

I never read any reviews of it. I got a PDF of the main rulebook, read it, and promptly deleted it. My decision to stick with 2nd Edition would later be reinforced by two people who did play it; both of whom I'd played with for years, both of whom had similar mindsets to my own with regard to RPG's, and both of whom had likewise decided that it wasn't their cup of tea.

Now let me be clear about something: I'm not one of these people who goes around saying that 3rd Edition was an abominable ball of fail. Ok, maybe once or twice; but I'll freely admit that I was being hyperbolic and cranky because I, like many 2nd Edition fans, was really hoping that 3rd would just be an improvement to 2nd; bringing it more in line with the 40K RPGs (more varied weapon stats, more flavorful talents, etc). But I digress.

I can absolutely see and concede how the system would appeal to many gamers. I just didn't happen to be one of them. The main compliment I always hear about all the bits and bobs was that it made the game 'faster' and 'easier'. Well, neither myself nor my players ever found 2nd Edition to be 'slow' or 'difficult', so there wasn't a whole lot of incentive to spend a bunch of money and clutter up the table.

There's also the fact that the system seemed a little too compartmentalized for my tastes, but here I must emphasize the word 'seemed' as I never actually read through the myriad of cards. I concede that it might have been more fluid than it looked like; but again, I'd seen nothing in the system to make me believe that it was worth finding out.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that but my experience is that very few people who speak about the game do so from personal experience. On the surface in particular if you just read the PDF/books the picture you get is very different from how the game actually plays out. Many of the components in the game where unnecessary and their are a few fiddly bits but it was a first go at new modern way of looking at RPG's. Just like 4th edition D&D was. Both games kind of failed but most of the ideas that have come out of these failed games are effectively the new standard in modern RPG design. Narrative Dice, background mechanics, components like cards for simpler rules reference, heavy streamlining. These are things you will see more and more.

The old school movement is strong out there, a lot of people much rather play archaic 15 year old games then join us in the 21st century but that is something that has always existed in the RPG community. The resistance to change is bizarrely strong in RPG's and you really have to wonder why. I mean these old school games had their time and they were brilliant back then, but lets be realistic. 2nd edition is a godawful mess of a game. Trying to play it today is really only possible for people who played it way back when and its really not unlike D&D. I mean I LOVED AD&D, but after playing 3rd, 4th and 5th edition, trying to go back to that old mess is ... well, not desirable. Those games had their time but its come and gone.

WFRPG was by no means perfect and I can relate to some of the issues with it, but compared to 1st or 2nd edition.. man its no contest, those games have absolutly nothing on WFRPG 3.0. I mean just the writing alone is so terrible, its hard on the eyes.

Its kind of my point though, this game has been reviewed and talked about to death, but very few people actually purchased and played it. That hassle factor being the key point of every review, but its really not an issue, its actually a convenience that speeds up the game and makes it easier to run. It doesn't seem like it and people come to the logical conclusion that it doesn't but in practice, it works great, you just have to give it a try.

Uh no, there are lots of people who bought and played the game and found it wasn't for them after giving it a fair chance. To claim otherwise is classic 3e fanboy denial.

I didn't suggest or claim anything... you quoted me, perhaps you should read it again.

2nd edition is a godawful mess of a game. Trying to play it today is really only possible for people who played it way back when and its really not unlike D&D. I mean I LOVED AD&D, but after playing 3rd, 4th and 5th edition, trying to go back to that old mess is ... well, not desirable. Those games had their time but its come and gone.

I abandoned D&D completely while 2nd edition was still going, so I have very little familiarity with the later editions with which to make a comparison. Could you give me some examples of what made 2nd edition such a 'godawful mess' and how the later editions objectively improved upon those things? Not trying to be combative or start an edition war; I'm genuinely interested in your perspective.

I didn't suggest or claim anything... you quoted me, perhaps you should read it again.

You said that components actually make the game easier, and that people claiming otherwise are wrong. I suppose, there's an argument that 3e is easier to play with components than on paper, but that's kind of a moot point considering the system was designed for components. If someone finds the components a hassle, it's cold comfort knowing that the game is even more clunky without them, that's not a selling point.

Trying to play it today is really only possible for people who played it way back when and its really not unlike D&D.

I find that notion laughable. If that statement was remotely true, then I shouldn't be GMing a 2nd edition game, with players who have never played 2nd edition before. I've been gming 2nd edition for 2 years now which certainly does not constitute as 'way back then' and I have been playing 2nd edition for even less than that time.

Now I get it; you don't like 2nd edition, which is perfectly fine, it's not for everyone. I say this cause I am the exact opposite of you, and because of that, I'm going to treat your opinion and view with respect. But I will call out statements such as 'trying to play it is only possible for people who played it way back when, and its not really unlike D&D'... Which is a very generalizing statement your making there.

As someone who has played 2nd Edition, Gm'ed 2nd edition, played D&D 3.5 (and hated every bit of it), played WFRP 3rd edition, and played (5e D&D) I can say with hand on heart that there's nothing remotely D&D about 2nd edition, if you've ever played 2nd edition then I'm confused how you could think that. Maybe its the dice system... 2nd ed uses percentile dice = D&D. D&D uses a horrible amount of dice. Even 5e which goes a long way to removing the clutter still is very math heavy and dice heavy. 2ndEd uses 1d10/2d10 and 1d100. That's it, those are the primary dice. It's not even remotely on the same level of D&D for being math heavy, not to mention all the variant attacks/abilities and damage types in D&D.

Now I've got to say that 3rd edition is very component heavy, and uses quite a lot of dice compared to other systems. I actually like the narrative dice, although I feel the Star Wars system perfected it, it's not that bad, and I would say IF it was backed by good mechanics, I'd use narrative dice over percentile dice any day. Unfortunately, when I played 3rd edition, I didn't enjoy any of the mechanics. I did not enjoy the way combat was dealt with and I absoloutely hated the butchering of the career system, bringing it down to a paltry amount. Worse offense was the treatment of magic in it, it really declawed magic. In my opinion I view the 3rd edition as a complete mess. And how anyone can spend a fortune on a component heavy system that doesn't even provide you with all the said necessary components is beyond my comprehension.

One of the GM's who was running a 3rd edition game (I was in 3 separate 3rd edition games ran by 3 different people at different periods), who had all the books and all the components, was slowly getting fed up with the system. In the end he switched over to running a 2nd edition game for the first time and commented that there was just so much more content and smoother mechanics. And he enjoyed running it.

I honestly can't go back to a 3rd edition game, I just don't get enjoyment out of it. It's the same reason why I'll not ever play in a D&D game that predates 5e, and I am still finding 5e a daunting task to get my head around, not only as a player but also as a new DM for that ruleset. Right now my favorite system out of the lot is FF Star Wars. I just love it. If there was a way to bring the narrative dice into 2nd edition without disrupting the core mechanics, I'd probably do that, and its the only part of the 3rd edition that I liked.

Again this is my opinion. 3rd edition is simply not for me... same way 2nd edition is not for you. But I'll not have it said that its similar to D&D in any way - That's just an outright blatant lie.

Hmmm v2 and v3 are quite different beasts, don't know I could say one is better than the other, not beyond personal opinion. Though this discussion does wet my appetite to try a WFRPv4 just to see where things go next.

****. I guess that means Im hooked.

Now I've got to say that 3rd edition is very component heavy, and uses quite a lot of dice compared to other systems. I actually like the narrative dice, although I feel the Star Wars system perfected it, it's not that bad, and I would say IF it was backed by good mechanics, I'd use narrative dice over percentile dice any day. Unfortunately, when I played 3rd edition, I didn't enjoy any of the mechanics. I did not enjoy the way combat was dealt with and I absoloutely hated the butchering of the career system, bringing it down to a paltry amount. Worse offense was the treatment of magic in it, it really declawed magic. In my opinion I view the 3rd edition as a complete mess. And how anyone can spend a fortune on a component heavy system that doesn't even provide you with all the said necessary components is beyond my comprehension.

I think that is kind of the point, the overwhelming majority of players didn't spend a fortune on a component heavy system that doesn't even provide you with all the said necessary components to play. Its ultimately why the game kind of failed.

Its sad really, because in the end there was a good system there and I think just like 4th edition D&D, had it been released as a non-franchise related system it actually would have been far more successful. The existing fan base really held it back because it was constantly being compared to past version rather than being judged on its own merits.

4e D&D had the same issue, it was actually a very inventive and fun approach to role-playing, the problem was that it had the D&D logo and had to contend with 30 years of player history and half a dozen past versions of the game. People where incapable of picking it up, playing it and deciding whether or not it was a good system, "it was a bad system because in X edition they did it better" was the standard paraphrased comment and if you read through the comments here you will find the same thing.

WFRPG was a unique take on the genre, it did things differently and while it wasn't successful, the EXACT same system was used in Star Wars Edge of the Empire and people loved it. I find it strange that someone can complain about the narrative dice in WFRPG but like it in Star Wars... these are very similiar dice systems, they made some alterations to the odds of different dice but you can practically use WFRPG dice to play Star Wars.

WFRPG was a unique take on the genre, it did things differently and while it wasn't successful, the EXACT same system was used in Star Wars Edge of the Empire and people loved it. I find it strange that someone can complain about the narrative dice in WFRPG but like it in Star Wars... these are very similiar dice systems, they made some alterations to the odds of different dice but you can practically use WFRPG dice to play Star Wars.

1) It wasn't really the exact same system. EotE got rid of the party sheets, the action cards, the talent socketing, and a number of other things which some people hadn't liked.

2) Star Wars is a significantly more popular IP than the Warhammer Fantasy setting. That alone was likely to boost sales regardless of the game's mechanics.

3) This last one is nothing more than my opinion, but I personally find that certain mechanical systems are more appropriate for some settings / genres / tones than they are for others.