I didn't say it was likely or even realistic but there is the potential
All true, however my point was that ISD1 has a chance to one shot GSD/AFMK2 that is high enough to not be discounted and is very likely to kill an MC30 (even Admonition) in one shot. ISD2 can't do that.
I love the ISD-1. I personally use it as a massive Gladiator (Relentless) that can take a beating in return. I have found it combos very nicely with the Interdictor G8 and tractor beams to pin down its prey and unload a double arc. Bigger ships will survive but be pretty crippled in the process.
My main issue is getting rerolls. Leading shots works on the front arc mainly (no blues on the side, few shots from the rear) and ordnance experts doesn't allow a reroll of the red dice.
That is why for me, Vader is the best Admiral for an ISD-1. Lots of tokens to spend, and the ability to maximise damage across all dice. Veteran gunners is also good, but one use only (as it exhausts after use).
It's been covered here numerous times already, but I'll add my vote for "cheap short-ranged bruiser or carrier" as the uses for an ISD-I.
When I see people disappointed with ISD-Is, it's because they're trying to run them as cheaper ISD-IIs. They then run the ISD-I at speed 1 or 2 primarily, they get frustrated by the lack of ECMs, they get frustrated by the lower red and blue dice count. An ISD-I when used like an ISD-II is a strictly worse ship. You need to crank the speed up, Navigate to get into position, and start rolling flanks or getting into head-on collisions with weaker ships (where you're stuck ramming one another until your front arc attack finally blows them apart and you sail on to the next task). Basically the ISD-II is heavy artillery. The ISD-I is heavy cavalry.
It is important to keep it cost-effective, however. To that end, I'd strongly recommend starting off with an Intel Officer and some source of rerolls (Ordnance Experts, Leading Shots, or Vader) as the only "guaranteed" upgrades. It generally doesn't want Gunnery Teams nearly so much as an ISD-II (due to its black dice) and it makes for a great Advanced Gunnery recipient (two front arc close range ISD-I shots = dead just about anything, barring extenuating circumstances).
Edit: I expect we'll see the ISD-I come more into its own as more worthwhile Offensive Retrofit upgrades are released (as right now the double-slot is mostly just a way to run Boosted Comms and Expanded Hangar Bays together, which isn't how everyone wants to use an ISD-I) as well as when Moff Jerjerrod is available. Speed 3 ISD-Is with a Nav command get 2 clicks + 1 + 1 with an extra one on one of the last two segments. That's brutal when it comes to the ISD-I performing in its preferred "super Gladiator" role.
This is where I am at now with my ISD-I list. The whole list is designed to close with the enemy quickly, slow down and pound them, then get the hell out before dying.
Fighter cover is good and stays in close, no running around, let them send fighters to me.
The fleet is designed for a coordinated strike, not piecemeal attacks. I may drop Leading Shots for a title or Agent Kallus on the Raider.
Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 399/400
Commander: Admiral Ozzel
Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory
Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 89 total ship cost
[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)
- Relentless ( 3 points)
- Admiral Chiraneau ( 10 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 168 total ship cost
Raider-II Class Corvette (48 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
= 52 total ship cost
1 Soontir Fel ( 18 points)
1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)
1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)
It is important to keep it cost-effective, however. To that end, I'd strongly recommend starting off with an Intel Officer and some source of rerolls (Ordnance Experts, Leading Shots, or Vader) as the only "guaranteed" upgrades. It generally doesn't want Gunnery Teams nearly so much as an ISD-II (due to its black dice) and it makes for a great Advanced Gunnery recipient (two front arc close range ISD-I shots = dead just about anything, barring extenuating circumstances).
All true and a valuable advice, however XI7 may be a better call compared to an Intel officer. It all depends on what your objective is: Intel is better for prolonged battles and long-range shooting and XI7 is better to one-shotting things. Another good upgrade for ISD1 that is often overlooked is High-capacity Ion turbines as it makes side arcs deadly for corvettes and raiders.
I agree with everything Snipa said above. They are ridiculously good when used as roided out gladiators. With a kitted out Demo, you usually will have to trade it for one of your opponents biggest ships before it gets blown up itself (if your opponent knows what they are doing). I've found that an ISD-1 can chew through two assault frigates, MC80's, and even rival ISD's (trust me, I've done it), before it succumbs to enemy fire. And make no joke, it WILL eventually crumble (which is why I run em cheap, Intel Officer and OE, LS or XI7 if I have the points to spare), the trick is, how many of your enemies ships can it take during its berserker run?
It is important to keep it cost-effective, however. To that end, I'd strongly recommend starting off with an Intel Officer and some source of rerolls (Ordnance Experts, Leading Shots, or Vader) as the only "guaranteed" upgrades. It generally doesn't want Gunnery Teams nearly so much as an ISD-II (due to its black dice) and it makes for a great Advanced Gunnery recipient (two front arc close range ISD-I shots = dead just about anything, barring extenuating circumstances).
All true and a valuable advice, however XI7 may be a better call compared to an Intel officer. It all depends on what your objective is: Intel is better for prolonged battles and long-range shooting and XI7 is better to one-shotting things. Another good upgrade for ISD1 that is often overlooked is High-capacity Ion turbines as it makes side arcs deadly for corvettes and raiders.
Heavy Turbolasers anybody?
If you are very brave, two, with a Gladiator is mad-good in close....
It is important to keep it cost-effective, however. To that end, I'd strongly recommend starting off with an Intel Officer and some source of rerolls (Ordnance Experts, Leading Shots, or Vader) as the only "guaranteed" upgrades. It generally doesn't want Gunnery Teams nearly so much as an ISD-II (due to its black dice) and it makes for a great Advanced Gunnery recipient (two front arc close range ISD-I shots = dead just about anything, barring extenuating circumstances).
All true and a valuable advice, however XI7 may be a better call compared to an Intel officer. It all depends on what your objective is: Intel is better for prolonged battles and long-range shooting and XI7 is better to one-shotting things. Another good upgrade for ISD1 that is often overlooked is High-capacity Ion turbines as it makes side arcs deadly for corvettes and raiders.
Ultimately that comes down to what you are facing heavily in your meta. Big ships? Intel Officer that brace away. Swarms? XI7 and now I DGAF about your 11 shields on your MC-30, that puppies toast.
It is important to keep it cost-effective, however. To that end, I'd strongly recommend starting off with an Intel Officer and some source of rerolls (Ordnance Experts, Leading Shots, or Vader) as the only "guaranteed" upgrades. It generally doesn't want Gunnery Teams nearly so much as an ISD-II (due to its black dice) and it makes for a great Advanced Gunnery recipient (two front arc close range ISD-I shots = dead just about anything, barring extenuating circumstances).
All true and a valuable advice, however XI7 may be a better call compared to an Intel officer. It all depends on what your objective is: Intel is better for prolonged battles and long-range shooting and XI7 is better to one-shotting things. Another good upgrade for ISD1 that is often overlooked is High-capacity Ion turbines as it makes side arcs deadly for corvettes and raiders.
Heavy Turbolasers anybody?
And then you face a rebel swarm with no braces across the whole fleet, and you are left with wasted points and a slot that could have been much more useful. XI7 almost ALWAYS helps, as do many other turbolasers. HTT is a very niche card that works in only against very specific fleets
Hmm... I like ISDI's over ISDII's primarily because it's easier to put 3 of them into a 400 point list.
Hmm... I like ISDI's over ISDII's primarily because it's easier to put 3 of them into a 400 point list.
This. My most successful triple ISD list was two ISD 1's with Intel Officer and Ordinance Experts, and Ozzel on an ISD 2 with ECM, Xi7, Leading Shots. The pincer moves you can pull with that list.... The board control... THE AREA DENIAL!!!!
Sorry, I'm getting myself all worked up...
Heavy Turbolasers anybody?
If you are very brave, two, with a Gladiator is mad-good in close....
Ultimately that comes down to what you are facing heavily in your meta. Big ships? Intel Officer that brace away. Swarms? XI7 and now I DGAF about your 11 shields on your MC-30, that puppies toast.
Ran one with xi7 and oe the other day... didn't get any accs, it just couldn't burn down the opposing ship fast enough to survive... leading shots may be important nite with all the flotillas running around as well... going to try Intel, xi7, oe, ls... May be too much upgrades, but sometimes the best defense is a good offence
Ran one with xi7 and oe the other day... didn't get any accs, it just couldn't burn down the opposing ship fast enough to survive... leading shots may be important nite with all the flotillas running around as well... going to try Intel, xi7, oe, ls... May be too much upgrades, but sometimes the best defense is a good offence
Who needs Gladiators when there are RaidersIf you are very brave, two, with a Gladiator is mad-good in close....
I second PT106 here. An ISD-1 plus two Raiders and a squadron ball fitted to taste can be extremely effective. It is one of the only lists I will run in my meta without a full CAP wing because the Raiders can be devastating anti-bomber screens (and occasionally haul around their own fighters to boot). The Star Destroyer closes menacingly, flinging bombers left or right, whichever way to get clean shots (thank the Emperor for Rhymer), and usually grabs all the Rebel attention like the diva it is. This leaves the Raiders to close in on its flanks, shredding squadrons and dealing Ordnance crits as they go. I've never quite replicated the feat (tricks like this tend to be one-shot ideas), but my first Wave 2 game, my opponent tried to make high-speed runs with his MC30s on the closing ISD. The Raiders, each equipped with OE and APT, rammed the MC30 successively and destroyed it with APT crits, much to the shock of my opponent before the hapless 30 ever fired its weapons. The synergy at close range is incredible, as the Raiders clean up for the ISD to barrel through, dealing damage and generally wreaking havoc. This is probably my favorite list, since I am not the Clonisher sort (I don't quite have that level of funding, not yet...).
It is important to keep it cost-effective, however. To that end, I'd strongly recommend starting off with an Intel Officer and some source of rerolls (Ordnance Experts, Leading Shots, or Vader) as the only "guaranteed" upgrades. It generally doesn't want Gunnery Teams nearly so much as an ISD-II (due to its black dice) and it makes for a great Advanced Gunnery recipient (two front arc close range ISD-I shots = dead just about anything, barring extenuating circumstances).
All true and a valuable advice, however XI7 may be a better call compared to an Intel officer. It all depends on what your objective is: Intel is better for prolonged battles and long-range shooting and XI7 is better to one-shotting things. Another good upgrade for ISD1 that is often overlooked is High-capacity Ion turbines as it makes side arcs deadly for corvettes and raiders.
Heavy Turbolasers anybody?
And then you face a rebel swarm with no braces across the whole fleet, and you are left with wasted points and a slot that could have been much more useful. XI7 almost ALWAYS helps, as do many other turbolasers. HTT is a very niche card that works in only against very specific fleets
I like the HTT artwork better ^^ ... But true - XI7 is more useful in most situations - HTT should be less points then XI7.
It depends on the opposing ship. XI7/OE with agressive rerolls and ram can kill a lot of ships in a single activation. If you have OE, leading shots is an unneeded luxury, I think. HCT is better. ISD1 can only be used as a secondary flotilla hunter (and only with Intel officer present).Ran one with xi7 and oe the other day... didn't get any accs, it just couldn't burn down the opposing ship fast enough to survive... leading shots may be important nite with all the flotillas running around as well... going to try Intel, xi7, oe, ls... May be too much upgrades, but sometimes the best defense is a good offence
I saw your build for ISD on vassal and I was like "what is going on here?!" Lol ion turbine??? Quad laser turrets??? Hogwash!!! But then I thought who knows more about ISD's than this guy??
Question, what about h9's along with the turbines?, you will always have an acc
I saw your build for ISD on vassal and I was like "what is going on here?!" Lol ion turbine??? Quad laser turrets??? Hogwash!!! But then I thought who knows more about ISD's than this guy??
Question, what about h9's along with the turbines?, you will always have an acc
(I recently had a game where ISD1 with HCT, XI7, OE flew against Rieekan TRC swarm and in two rounds of shooting killed 3 corvettes and Salvation before dying). And QLT together with Agent Kallus is a solid upgrade against Yavaris in general and Rieekan aces in particular.
I tried H9 and found that in current meta it's just not worth it. XI7s are better, and even with guaranteed accuracy from a side arc you end up not having enough damage to kill stuff. Instead I prefer to stash/Comm Net CF token early to reroll a blue die for flotilla encounter (And it helps in general as well)
Comparative uses :
- ISD 2 : Generalist gunboat for superiority on smaller class vessels, using blue range to counteract their maneuvrability. Good for attrition.
- ISD 1 : Brawler for superiority against ships of an equivalent class, because it has more optimal damage and you can only reliably (as in easily) place double arc shots with black dice on the larger ships.
In general, I find that II class Imperial ships are very more generalists while I class Imperial ships are more specialized in one duty, the duty being determined by their dice pooll, base size and speed 
Moffzen - good analysis, although I'd expand the ISD2s usage with the "Apex predator" role - if you push it up to 150+ points (intel, gunnery, ecm, xi7, leading shots) it will solo anything else in the game, and can burn down multiples of anything else that take it on. Its only limitation is getting to grips with a worthwhile target!
Moffzen - good analysis, although I'd expand the ISD2s usage with the "Apex predator" role - if you push it up to 150+ points (intel, gunnery, ecm, xi7, leading shots) it will solo anything else in the game, and can burn down multiples of anything else that take it on. Its only limitation is getting to grips with a worthwhile target!
Thanks for the kind words
Regarding the different ISD 2 builds, I currently am working on a new fleet design framework where upgrades have a lower role. I've seen people build fleets and strategies around upgrade cards and thinking about the ships as just a way to carry the cards. My analysis is that cards don't change a ship's role, except for title cards. The ship is instead flown based on his ununpgraded value (or role given by the title), and upgrade cards just add performance.
The ISD2 build you've quoted for example doesn't really change the role of the ship, and the upgrade cards on it will only provide marginal increase. For instance, ECM might save the Brace from large dice pools, but the ISD2 will be as vulnerable as unupgraded against multiple shots from smaller vessels Gunnery Team will not bring much if the enemy doesn't put 2 ships in your optimal zone, which is easy to do. Engineering Commands when put in a dual will likely mitigate the efficiency of XI7 (example : at a tourney, I used an ISD2 to duel a MC80 with XI7, and just cycling shields towards the front hull zone meant that at each activation, he was basically losing the benefit of XI7 because he would have to start drilling through the shields all over again Result : neither died while I killed the rest of his fleet, hehe).
This fleet building doctrine is based on the idea that it's more important to fly the ship to diminish the enemy's effectiveness while increasing yours rather than than planning pregame for something and trying to make it happen. Not saying the christmas tree ISD2 is a bad build, just saying that I don't think these upgrades are super mandatory to make it work or change its role ^^ Hence why I wrote my post talking about the uses of the base hull.
A long long time ago I used to play a 3 raider ( instigator) 1 demo, 1 ISD one and 4 ties, leader was ozzel. I did not loss a game with it, very nice little fleet. Instigator, a second raider and the ties would hang out waiting to jump any bomber wing that formed up against my ships, demo would last first in to maul a major target, demo jumps out just as the ISD one Rams strait in for another last first (aiming for a double arc), demo comes around behind for the clean up......it works because Ozzel lets you bring in each ship at the point you want it in.....
Imo, the isd1 is the best and most points effective carrier damage dealer battleship in the game. It hits really hard at the right ranges and have insanely good value for issuing squadron commands.
Imo, the isd1 is the best and most points effective carrier damage dealer battleship in the game. It hits really hard at the right ranges and have insanely good value for issuing squadron commands.
Building a ship around which orders you will give before the game begins is a great way to telegraph what you want to do and have the enemy build around that. When building a carrier, most people are excluding useful commands like Engineering from their cycle, and the carriers usually tend to go down very fast. It then leaves the squadrons in the open without anyong to boss them around. It doesn't make much sense to plan for a ship being a carrier pregame, and it makes the lists very unflexible if you don't plan to issue squadron commands with any other ship 