Realizing this is likely arbitrary...
We are starting a new EDGE game, and I've decided to try my hand at a Togruta archaeologist.
What might be the appropriate skill check for knowing/finding information on an artifact? I can make an argument for Lore, Xenology, and Knowledge/Outer Rim.
Thoughts?
Lore would be the default, as history is its thing, and artifacts are a part of history, so... Education would be secondary, but probably at a steeper difficulty. Outer Rim/Core Worlds would only be if it can be directly tied to a location/culture, but I would still defer to Lore. Xenology is more biology-ish, so unless the artifact is organic in nature and can be analyzed that way, no.
Xenology can also include cultures, which is why I included it. Please assume the artifact was indeed discovered in the Outer Rim.
Thanks for your feedback.
Here's how I would divide it up: Lore will tell you legends about the artifact and its context. Outer Rim will tell you which planet it is probably on based on the vague descriptions in said legends. Xenology will tell you whether or not digging around the artifact will anger the natives and what you can do to gain their respect.
Thanks - interesting way to break things up.
Since this is a new game, I suggest that the most useful skill choice in this scenario is...
...The One that said character may actually succeed in knowing, based on their skills. As GMs, our jobs are to maintain and sustain longer play times. As long as the player could reasonably justify how any given skill may apply, say "yes" to their creative thinking.
As an example, I point to the broken, fallen Statue of Liberty from Planet of the Apes movies. Regarding the statue,
-- A Xenology check will tell us about US patriotism, economic values, and positive relationships this people attempted.
-- An Outer Rim check will confirm the item matches where it is supposed to be - yup, WE blew it up.
-- A Lore check uncovers more history about who made the statue, why, what its engravings mean, etc.
Your mileage may vary. For my group, I'd let any one of these rolls succeed in this scenario. Furthermore, since we want players to roll dice as they role play, I may even grant a boost die if the situations could be stacked. If players wanted to find out about French patriotism, finding the Statue of Liberty (Outer Rim) is a good start because it confirms their presence on this planet at some time. A Lore or Xenology attempt to find out more about the statue would likely get a boost die if they succeeded on an Outer Rim check moments earlier.
Great points
I think of Xenology as being equivalent to real-life Antropology (the study of humans), except that since you're studying more sentient species than humans, "anthropology" no longer works as a descriptor. So just look up "anthropology" and that's pretty much what Xenology will do. Except that there is a bit of biology mixed in as well. Which is confusing because that means that Xenology and Medicine overlap, a lot. Too much.
Honestly I think FFG really didn't give it much thought and screwed things up. Xenology should have no biological components to it, that should all fall under Medicine. Because now you need to figure out, if an alien is wounded, which skill do you use to heal them? How about supporting an alien's life, or putting them in a comfortable environment, or feeding them? And if Xenology is used for practical matters, like being able to save a creature's life, why is it a Knowledge rather than General skill? What if the doctor is an alien themselves, do they use Xenology for treating humans?
Frankly, if I ran a campaign I'd be inclined to rule that Medicine gives you biological knowledge of all species, and Xenology lets you know the habits, preferences, cultures, and history of various species throughout the galaxy. That's a clear and rational line drawn between what the two skills are for and how you use them. That's what FFG should have done in the first place.
Based on your Medicine v Xenology position, may I ask your thoughts on Athletics v Coordination?
Education v Lore?
Computers v Mechanics?
Streetwise v Underground?
Astrogation v Computers/Piloting (any)?
Based on your Medicine v Xenology position, may I ask your thoughts on Athletics v Coordination?
Education v Lore?
Computers v Mechanics?
Streetwise v Underground?
Astrogation v Computers/Piloting (any)?
Coordination is pretty specific. It's a combination of balance, contortion, and acrobatics. Crossing a tightrope, squirming out of bonds, squeezing through a hole. Just about anything else that requires a feat of physical ability falls under Athletics.
Lore involves old knowledge. Things people may have forgotten about. Stuff from the distant past. Newer information would fall under Education.
Computers involve anything software-related. That includes creating, modifying, or bypassing a program. It also involves repairing or augmenting a computer. Mechanics would involve any modification or repair of technology aside from computers.
Underworld is information about the seedy criminal parts of society. Streetwise is what you use when actually interacting with criminals. It's cleanly divided between knowledge and practice. For example, you want to fence some stolen weapon crystals. Underworld will let you know that Finkle the Finger is a (relatively) reliable way to turn those goods into credits. However, Finkle is hard to find, so you'd use Streetwise to track him down.
Astrogation is specific to plotting Hyperspace routes. Anything involved in that falls under this skill and nothing else (including Computers or Piloting).
There are a lot of skills that could potentially overlap, but it doesn't take much effort to divide them. Often times one skill is a specialized version of another (like Coordination and Athletics). But Xenology and Medicine blur in such a confusing way that I really struggle to figure out which would apply where. Of course, you can always say "let the GM decide" but that's a cop-out.
Frankly, if I ran a campaign I'd be inclined to rule that Medicine gives you biological knowledge of all species, and Xenology lets you know the habits, preferences, cultures, and history of various species throughout the galaxy. That's a clear and rational line drawn between what the two skills are for and how you use them. That's what FFG should have done in the first place.
In real-life, I doubt many people (even manufacturers) could explain the biological implications on branded aspirin products...but that doesn't stop people from buying Tylenol. Just because I know I need to solve my headache (medicine), I do not know how to perform brain surgery or even a basic appendectomy just because I know a little bit of medicine. This is reflected in my ranks; I'm not a veteran of medical school, so taking aspirin is the ceiling of my own medicine skill.
Then, with Xenology, I may know a lot about Native Americans, including their culture, tribes, artifacts, land, etc. Could I just as easily use Charm to get similar information from a Tribal member? I think this seems reasonable, depending on that member's connection to their own Tribe. In history, Coercion and Deception gave the US Gov't a cultural advantage, and I doubt many soldier would have held (m)any ranks in Xenology (as it would pertain to knowing Tribes).
At the end of the day, mechanics help tell a story. If a player wants to use their lightsaber skill to hack trees in a forest, why not let them? I'm sure there could be a million reasons why NOT to allow this trick, but a game is supposed to be fun, too. As long as we can agree how fun is our Number 1 Goal, then the rest is as subjective as adding table salt to a meal.
Based on your Medicine v Xenology position, may I ask your thoughts on Athletics v Coordination?
Education v Lore?
Computers v Mechanics?
Streetwise v Underground?
Astrogation v Computers/Piloting (any)?
Coordination is pretty specific. It's a combination of balance, contortion, and acrobatics. Crossing a tightrope, squirming out of bonds, squeezing through a hole. Just about anything else that requires a feat of physical ability falls under Athletics.
Lore involves old knowledge. Things people may have forgotten about. Stuff from the distant past. Newer information would fall under Education.
Computers involve anything software-related. That includes creating, modifying, or bypassing a program. It also involves repairing or augmenting a computer. Mechanics would involve any modification or repair of technology aside from computers.
Underworld is information about the seedy criminal parts of society. Streetwise is what you use when actually interacting with criminals. It's cleanly divided between knowledge and practice. For example, you want to fence some stolen weapon crystals. Underworld will let you know that Finkle the Finger is a (relatively) reliable way to turn those goods into credits. However, Finkle is hard to find, so you'd use Streetwise to track him down.
Astrogation is specific to plotting Hyperspace routes. Anything involved in that falls under this skill and nothing else (including Computers or Piloting).
There are a lot of skills that could potentially overlap, but it doesn't take much effort to divide them. Often times one skill is a specialized version of another (like Coordination and Athletics). But Xenology and Medicine blur in such a confusing way that I really struggle to figure out which would apply where. Of course, you can always say "let the GM decide" but that's a cop-out.
I agree about a cop-out, but not all rules are written in stone. Medicine RAW is established, but you don't like it. Per RAW, you can also change these things to expedite game play.
I challenge the adjective of old/new when referring to Education v Lore. When 800 years old you be...
How might you classify an Academy student learning about the Jedi Civil War? Lore? Education? Warfare?!?
Based on your Medicine v Xenology position, may I ask your thoughts on Athletics v Coordination?
Education v Lore?
Computers v Mechanics?
Streetwise v Underground?
Astrogation v Computers/Piloting (any)?
Coordination is pretty specific. It's a combination of balance, contortion, and acrobatics. Crossing a tightrope, squirming out of bonds, squeezing through a hole. Just about anything else that requires a feat of physical ability falls under Athletics.
Lore involves old knowledge. Things people may have forgotten about. Stuff from the distant past. Newer information would fall under Education.
Computers involve anything software-related. That includes creating, modifying, or bypassing a program. It also involves repairing or augmenting a computer. Mechanics would involve any modification or repair of technology aside from computers.
Underworld is information about the seedy criminal parts of society. Streetwise is what you use when actually interacting with criminals. It's cleanly divided between knowledge and practice. For example, you want to fence some stolen weapon crystals. Underworld will let you know that Finkle the Finger is a (relatively) reliable way to turn those goods into credits. However, Finkle is hard to find, so you'd use Streetwise to track him down.
Astrogation is specific to plotting Hyperspace routes. Anything involved in that falls under this skill and nothing else (including Computers or Piloting).
There are a lot of skills that could potentially overlap, but it doesn't take much effort to divide them. Often times one skill is a specialized version of another (like Coordination and Athletics). But Xenology and Medicine blur in such a confusing way that I really struggle to figure out which would apply where. Of course, you can always say "let the GM decide" but that's a cop-out.
I agree about a cop-out, but not all rules are written in stone. Medicine RAW is established, but you don't like it. Per RAW, you can also change these things to expedite game play.
I challenge the adjective of old/new when referring to Education v Lore. When 800 years old you be...
How might you classify an Academy student learning about the Jedi Civil War? Lore? Education? Warfare?!?
That depends on what the student is studying in that subject. Warfare is pretty self-explanatory, the student learns, among other things, about tactics and strategies, both good and bad. Lore might involve the study of Jedi/Sith philosophy in those respective orders' decision making, especially if the student is alive centuries after the Jedi Civil War. Education could involve learning about the economic and sociological pressures that were exerted by the many species and ideologies of that time.
I think of Lore as story-driven and Education as fact-driven. George Washington was President of the United States, that's fact-driven. But when he could not lie about chopping down a prized cherry tree, that's story-driven.
In A New Hope, Ben outs himself and Luke's father as Jedi Knights which is a fact but to Luke and even Han to an extent, the entirety of the Jedi Knights is Lore.
I challenge the adjective of old/new when referring to Education v Lore. When 800 years old you be...
That's RAW. Everything in the description of the skill emphasizes that it's solely for old knowledge. It talks of "lost cultures and ancient legends", an "ancient piece of writing", an "ancient hero", and so on. It's pretty explicit, and challenging that is pretty much ignoring the book.
...except the parts where the books suggest ignoring RAW to facilitate game play.
Let's not keep poking each other in the eyes, here, man; we'd both be blind.
I think of Lore as story-driven and Education as fact-driven. George Washington was President of the United States, that's fact-driven. But when he could not lie about chopping down a prized cherry tree, that's story-driven.
---
<<scratches head>>
...and it's also 200+ years old information, which relatively speaking, may qualify as 'lore,' right?
Having trouble imagining a formal educational source that could teach a lot about Washington and completely ignore story elements, like the chopping of a cherry tree or pitching a coin across the Deleware River. Wouldn't Harvard and Yale house some of those stories?
I guess what I am really struggling to write/express is:
Many skills seem like they have multiple applications. To pinpoint one use above all other and ignoring players' creativity may threaten a game by being so uncomfortably inflexible.
For example, in one game, my Gungan was under attack by Imperial Forces. To escape, I wanted to use my Survival skill to spot where any fleeing animals go.
Perception check? Anything?
N.O.P.E. I feel bad that my skill(s) aren't as useful as I hoped, perhaps because of RAW on skill interpretations. If there were no critters to spot, that news would have been helpful to share, thus gently guiding me to reconsider my options.
Your mileage may vary...
In real-life, I doubt many people (even manufacturers) could explain the biological implications on branded aspirin products...but that doesn't stop people from buying Tylenol.
To be pedantic, Tylenol is not Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid). Tylenol is acetaminophen, which is a painkiller that is not a Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflamatory Drug. The NSAID family includes aspirin, Ibuprofen, Naproxen, and others.
For my part, I like to give players multiple options for skills to use in a given circumstance, and let them convince me which one would be best for them to use and why.
IMO, there is a lot of overlap between most skills, and two different people might know the same critical piece of information through two totally different channels/methods.
So, give the players options. Maybe some skills are more natural or primary, and the difficulty would be lower. Maybe some skills are less natural and secondary or tertiary, but could still be applicable — with higher difficulty.
You’re trying to interactively create a story that is interesting and entertaining for yourself and everyone else at the table, so I’d encourage you to try to find ways to include them and let them try to bring their creativity to whatever the situation might be, and do so frequently.
At the end of the day, mechanics help tell a story. If a player wants to use their lightsaber skill to hack trees in a forest, why not let them? I'm sure there could be a million reasons why NOT to allow this trick, but a game is supposed to be fun, too. As long as we can agree how fun is our Number 1 Goal, then the rest is as subjective as adding table salt to a meal.
Funny you should mention that... when I was much younger I decided that I was willing to be a lumber jack if I got to use a lightsaber to cut down trees.
...except the parts where the books suggest ignoring RAW to facilitate game play.
Let's not keep poking each other in the eyes, here, man; we'd both be blind.
Totally agree! That's why I said in my first post that I would ignore RAW and do a house rule to make things more clear. Nobody should ever feel like they need to stick to the rules 100%. Just know that when you're deviating from the rules that you're deviating from the rules, that's all.
(Honestly I don't think I've ever run or played in a game where we didn't at least tweak something here or there. It's natural to do so, and usually positive, since every group is different and some things work better with different people.)
Honestly I think FFG really didn't give it much thought and screwed things up. Xenology should have no biological components to it, that should all fall under Medicine. Because now you need to figure out, if an alien is wounded, which skill do you use to heal them? How about supporting an alien's life, or putting them in a comfortable environment, or feeding them? And if Xenology is used for practical matters, like being able to save a creature's life, why is it a Knowledge rather than General skill? What if the doctor is an alien themselves, do they use Xenology for treating humans?
I do not see this as a problem. You might as well say that Medicine and Biology are the same thing in the real world, but no matter how much I love David Attenborough (and I really, really do love David Attenborough) I'm not going to let him operate on me!
Medicine IRL encompasses a number of areas of knowledge, many of which are, of course, biological in nature (it's pretty important to know how the human body works before you try to remove an appendix) but just as many of which are chemical (pharmacology, for example, or toxicology).
Biology, on the other hand, encompasses not only the internal workings of organisms but also genetics, evolution, zoology, ecology, botany, marine biology, even things like paleontology and conservation.
Is there an overlap? Of course - it falls under what we might call "biomedical sciences". But (going back to the game) a doctor with no Xenology isn't going to be able to land on a strange planet and understand where a large predator might be living, or how an Imperial plan to dam the river might impact life for hundreds of miles around, or how laying down poison for pests might cause the food chain to collapse, removing the locals' source of nutrients.