So I've had a lot of problems running into things in the past, and I just want to point out, respectfully, that I think issues with overlapping are something that a lot of players don't know (most people actively avoid the issue when possible). The number of odd things that can potentially happen with overlapping another ship are rather numerous, but I saw at GenCon that a lot of players didn't seem to realize that overlapping does some odd, important things to your maneuver tool and card effects at times. I actively exploited some of these effects to reposition myself and players were constantly calling over judges. I even made a massive mistake and unintentionally interfered with another game remarking on the scenario.

Carefully read over the overlapping rules for ships and obstacles and the cards that affect them. They have some critical caveats that players should understand.

What if the Flotilla blocked the VSD, so the VSD ends its movement on an obstacle?

Then the flotilla would take 1 damage for the ram.

The victory would take 1 hull damage as the crit card effect for overlapping a ship.

The victory would take 1 face up card for the asteroid.

The victory would take 1 hull damage as the crit card effect for overlapping an obstacle.

Wait. I think this is false. So flotilla blocks victory, that then back tracks and lands on obstacle, while affected by damaged controls, right?

Flotilla takes a face down for being rammed.

Victory takes obstacle damage.

Victory takes a face down for the damaged controls, which triggers once for the maneuver, per damaged control card if multiple.

Yeah that sounds right. I'm pretty sure damaged controls only triggers once for an entire maneuver, regardless of how many ships or obstacles you would have overlapped.

Nope. No limit on the number of times damaged controls csn trigger.

... So like, without setting it up to check, it would be possible to take 6 damage or so from overlapped ships, 4 from debris fields, 2 face ups from asteroids, and then tack onto that another 10 from damaged controls... All while only dealing a single point to the first ship you would have touched. I don't buy it. That doesn't make sense at all. This sounds like wishful thinking and I've never seen it ruled that way.

How?

You can only ever overlap the CLOSEST ship (final position).

Plus whatever obstacles you land on (any number, theoretically, but in practice rarely more than 1).

Force, if you land on five obstacles at once, the ship screwed with or without the crit.

And the two identical crits do 'stack'. Not that it mattered here.

I beg to differ on this because of the "When" keyword on the card:

• A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specificevent occurs and cannot occur again for that instance ofthe event.

Because of that, two "whens" cannot stack effects because the second one would be a reoccurrence of the effect.

Incorrect.

There are two when effects, one from each card.

I still beg to differ. In this example, there are two separate cards meaning two separate effects that happen simultaneously upon occurrence. Because of the "When" on the cards, only one effect is resolved. The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

A View of Which the Designers themselves have said is incorrect - the Intention is for bomber command and targeting scramblers to stack...

The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

A View of Which the Designers themselves have said is incorrect - the Intention is for bomber command and targeting scramblers to stack...

Not only that, but I thought that there was an email regarding doubled up identical crits, no?

The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

A View of Which the Designers themselves have said is incorrect - the Intention is for bomber command and targeting scramblers to stack...

Not only that, but I thought that there was an email regarding doubled up identical crits, no?

Also correct.

Confirmed that an Engineering Crit that halves your Engineering value, if doubled, will halve your value twice.

Remember, only the ship moving is considered to be overlapping. The other ship is being overlapped

You're making the case that overlap isn't a state and instead is an action. Again I point to the rules which treat it as a state. Likewise the crit card text at the top of this point also treats it like a state, not a verb. It doesn't say overlapping, it doesn't say overlapped, it says overlap.

Anyway, we'll see if this ends up in the next updated FAQ....

When it comes to ships, overlapping can only be an action, not a state (to use your terms) in Armada, because you don't end up touching like you do in X-Wing, you go back to the last joint on your movement tool. There will always be clear space between you and the ship you overlapped. There's no concept of ships remaining in a state of overlapping.

If the TO was asked about this, he was wrong (I've no idea about the crits stacking).

The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

A View of Which the Designers themselves have said is incorrect - the Intention is for bomber command and targeting scramblers to stack...

Which would violate their own rules. Both upgrades have "While":

• A “while” effect can be resolved during the specific

event and cannot occur again during that instance of the

event.

Therefore... two Bomber Commands, or Targeting Scramblers, may not stack effects because that would violate the 'cannot' golden rule.

Doesn't sound like the TO actually was asked about that point though, just the stacking critical card text one.

The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

A View of Which the Designers themselves have said is incorrect - the Intention is for bomber command and targeting scramblers to stack...

Which would violate their own rules. Both upgrades have "While":

• A “while” effect can be resolved during the specific

event and cannot occur again during that instance of the

event.

Therefore... two Bomber Commands, or Targeting Scramblers, may not stack effects because that would violate the 'cannot' golden rule.

They could argue the "effect" is per card. First card's effect is a separate phenomenon from second card's effect, even if the text is the same.

If they went down that route though, it would have repercussions for the "cannot apply the same critical effect twice in one attack" rule. I'd be able to attach two of the same weapon and use it's new special critical effect twice.

The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

A View of Which the Designers themselves have said is incorrect - the Intention is for bomber command and targeting scramblers to stack...

Which would violate their own rules. Both upgrades have "While":

• A “while” effect can be resolved during the specificevent and cannot occur again during that instance of theevent.

Therefore... two Bomber Commands, or Targeting Scramblers, may not stack effects because that would violate the 'cannot' golden rule.

Because there are two cards, each card is considered a different event.

" I'd be able to attach two of the same weapon and use it's new special critical effect twice."\

False Argument.

You cannot equip the same upgrade twice on the same ship. Even if you did have the slot, like a Liberty and its Turbolasers.

The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

A View of Which the Designers themselves have said is incorrect - the Intention is for bomber command and targeting scramblers to stack...

Not only that, but I thought that there was an email regarding doubled up identical crits, no?

Also correct.

Confirmed that an Engineering Crit that halves your Engineering value, if doubled, will halve your value twice.

But for that crit, there is no "when", "while", "before", or "after" keyword, so yes their crit effects do stack up.

The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

A View of Which the Designers themselves have said is incorrect - the Intention is for bomber command and targeting scramblers to stack...

Which would violate their own rules. Both upgrades have "While":

• A “while” effect can be resolved during the specificevent and cannot occur again during that instance of theevent.

Therefore... two Bomber Commands, or Targeting Scramblers, may not stack effects because that would violate the 'cannot' golden rule.

Because there are two cards, each card is considered a different event.

The cards aren't the event, the attack is the event. The cards modify the event.

Separate Cards = Separate Effects.

Supported by both Rules as Written, and as Rules as Intention by the designers themselves.

In the case of two Copies of Damaged Controls.

The OVERLAP is the Event. Yes.

You overlap.

The First Damaged Controls triggers, and then you take a Damage.

The Second Damaged Controls triggers, and then you take a Damage.

The rule triggers "while" and "When" exist for two reasons:

1) They tell you when to do it. (Either immediately, or anytime during).

and
2)

They stop you from triggering the same card (not a different copy of the same card), the same way.

Here's the problem:


YOU ARE ARGUING A POINT AS FACT, WHEN THERE IS NO DESIGNATION OF FACT EITHER WAY AT THIS TIME.

The Rules support BOTH positions....

So, disregarding that, what else do you have to back up your Rule decision? as Your Argument is IDENTICAL to my argument... Only I have something else.

I have Designer Intent.

If you want to tell the Designers they are wrong. Be My Guest. You can find the Contact form Here:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/contact/

But I am not wrong by quoting the designers and the feedback when it comes out... In fact, that is what you are supposed to do in the rules Sub-Forum.

Speaking of which, that is where I will be.

And the two identical crits do 'stack'. Not that it mattered here.

I beg to differ on this because of the "When" keyword on the card:

• A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specific

event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of

the event.

Because of that, two "whens" cannot stack effects because the second one would be a reoccurrence of the effect.

It says "A "when" effect" meaning, singular. This is a rule regarding single cards and their triggers and has nothing to do with multiple cards triggering at the same time.

And the two identical crits do 'stack'. Not that it mattered here.

I beg to differ on this because of the "When" keyword on the card:

• A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specificevent occurs and cannot occur again for that instance ofthe event.

Because of that, two "whens" cannot stack effects because the second one would be a reoccurrence of the effect.

Incorrect.

There are two when effects, one from each card.

I still beg to differ. In this example, there are two separate cards meaning two separate effects that happen simultaneously upon occurrence. Because of the "When" on the cards, only one effect is resolved. The same reason multiple Bomber Commands cannot be used on the same attack.

Except they can. Multiple bomber commands that is. Same effect, yes, but different source.

Separate Cards = Separate Effects.

Supported by both Rules as Written, and as Rules as Intention by the designers themselves.

In the case of two Copies of Damaged Controls.

The OVERLAP is the Event. Yes.

You overlap.

The First Damaged Controls triggers, and then you take a Damage.

The Second Damaged Controls triggers, and then you take a Damage.

The rule triggers "while" and "When" exist for two reasons:

1) They tell you when to do it. (Either immediately, or anytime during).

and

2)

They stop you from triggering the same card (not a different copy of the same card), the same way.

Here's the problem:

YOU ARE ARGUING A POINT AS FACT, WHEN THERE IS NO DESIGNATION OF FACT EITHER WAY AT THIS TIME.

The Rules support BOTH positions....

So, disregarding that, what else do you have to back up your Rule decision? as Your Argument is IDENTICAL to my argument... Only I have something else.

I have Designer Intent.

If you want to tell the Designers they are wrong. Be My Guest. You can find the Contact form Here:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/contact/

But I am not wrong by quoting the designers and the feedback when it comes out... In fact, that is what you are supposed to do in the rules Sub-Forum.

Speaking of which, that is where I will be.

Question has been submitted, along with a request for a definition of what "the event" means in the Effects Timing section.

In addition, one nice thing about playing regularly at FFGC is more indirect interfacing with the designers. And the not stacking of bomber commands is the latest guidance from them. While that may change once the FAQ gets updated, for now, since that is the latest 'ruling' I have received about it, that is what I will be going with.

" I'd be able to attach two of the same weapon and use it's new special critical effect twice."\

False Argument.

You cannot equip the same upgrade twice on the same ship. Even if you did have the slot, like a Liberty and its Turbolasers.

Ah, I didn't know that!

Separate Cards = Separate Effects.

Supported by both Rules as Written, and as Rules as Intention by the designers themselves.

In the case of two Copies of Damaged Controls.

The OVERLAP is the Event. Yes.

You overlap.

The First Damaged Controls triggers, and then you take a Damage.

The Second Damaged Controls triggers, and then you take a Damage.

The rule triggers "while" and "When" exist for two reasons:

1) They tell you when to do it. (Either immediately, or anytime during).

and

2)

They stop you from triggering the same card (not a different copy of the same card), the same way.

We agree that overlap is the triggering event.

Here is where we disagree, and where I do believe you are wrong is on your 2nd point. It is written with multiple copies of the same card in effect. From the RRG:

• A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specific event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

The key part here is the "cannot occur again for that instance of the event".

We have already established the event is the overlap. Since it is an identical effect from the second card, employing the effect the second time would violate the "cannot occur again for that instance of the event" part of the rule.

In addition, one nice thing about playing regularly at FFGC is more indirect interfacing with the designers. And the not stacking of bomber commands is the latest guidance from them. While that may change once the FAQ gets updated, for now, since that is the latest 'ruling' I have received about it, that is what I will be going with.

Wait a second, Terry, which dev said that? Moreover, I don't think any of the Armada devs play Armada, do they? I know a couple of employees do, but the devs specifically said at Gen Con that BCCs do stack.

In addition, one nice thing about playing regularly at FFGC is more indirect interfacing with the designers. And the not stacking of bomber commands is the latest guidance from them. While that may change once the FAQ gets updated, for now, since that is the latest 'ruling' I have received about it, that is what I will be going with.

Wait a second, Terry, which dev said that? Moreover, I don't think any of the Armada devs play Armada, do they? I know a couple of employees do, but the devs specifically said at Gen Con that BCCs do stack.

This came thru an FFG employee who asked them about this. I did include it (BCCs) in part of my rules question to them.

This is a most instructive thread, and I can't wait to see the official answer.

In addition, one nice thing about playing regularly at FFGC is more indirect interfacing with the designers. And the not stacking of bomber commands is the latest guidance from them. While that may change once the FAQ gets updated, for now, since that is the latest 'ruling' I have received about it, that is what I will be going with.

Wait a second, Terry, which dev said that? Moreover, I don't think any of the Armada devs play Armada, do they? I know a couple of employees do, but the devs specifically said at Gen Con that BCCs do stack.

Terry and I had brought up BCC as part of this one when we were both laughing at we were experiencing on the table top and wondering how to sort it out. It was a heck of a fun game. I mean come on, who can't laugh at the prospect of a GR75 taking out a VSD!?!

My poor poor VSD, good thing Motti wasn't aboard that one.....