We're going to have to accept that we disagree about green dice.

I like the randomness they (and the red dice) bring to the game... Not to say I don't appreciate modifications - I like risk mitigation, too.

The trend is going in your favor.

the trend needs more guaranteed damage bombs

That is something I can get behind. But would rather my opponents' ships get behind. I've never had more fun than playing a 55 point Miranda. Protons and Connors ALL. ****. DAY.

Finally after 4 waves in a row hull and shields start to matter again instead of super-modified green dice and repositioning.

that's a breakthrough. we should be happy about that.

There's a large difference between hull and shields matter again and "unless you have obscene amounts of hull or green dice your ship might as well not exist"

Finally after 4 waves in a row hull and shields start to matter again instead of super-modified green dice and repositioning.

that's a breakthrough. we should be happy about that.

There's a large difference between hull and shields matter again and "unless you have obscene amounts of hull or green dice your ship might as well not exist"

Anything's better than the PS9+ 3+ agility 2+ action ace party where hp matters not because you're not landing any hits unless you can repeatedly 4/4, crackshot or you're omega level troll

We're going to have to accept that we disagree about green dice.

I like the randomness they (and the red dice) bring to the game... Not to say I don't appreciate modifications - I like risk mitigation, too.

The trend is going in your favor.

the trend needs more guaranteed damage bombs

That is something I can get behind. But would rather my opponents' ships get behind. I've never had more fun than playing a 55 point Miranda. Protons and Connors ALL. ****. DAY.

Like better bomb on Resistance Han with Sabine and Slam?

We're going to have to accept that we disagree about green dice.

I like the randomness they (and the red dice) bring to the game... Not to say I don't appreciate modifications - I like risk mitigation, too.

The trend is going in your favor.

the trend needs more guaranteed damage bombs

That is something I can get behind. But would rather my opponents' ships get behind. I've never had more fun than playing a 55 point Miranda. Protons and Connors ALL. ****. DAY.

Like better bomb on Resistance Han with Sabine and Slam?

Maybe. Han can't take Extra Munitions, though - so that's two one-time tricks. I prefer my bombs come in pairs (if not quintuplets)

Homers are probably better on Miranda anyway.

Homers are probably better on Miranda anyway.

My favorite build:

Miranda Doni

- Twin Laser Turret

- Extra Munitions

- Homing Missiles

- Proton Bomb

- Conner Net

- Sabine Wren

- Advanced Slam

Finally after 4 waves in a row hull and shields start to matter again instead of super-modified green dice and repositioning.

that's a breakthrough. we should be happy about that.

There's a large difference between hull and shields matter again and "unless you have obscene amounts of hull or green dice your ship might as well not exist"

Anything's better than the PS9+ 3+ agility 2+ action ace party where hp matters not because you're not landing any hits unless you can repeatedly 4/4, crackshot or you're omega level troll

I'm confused as to why you think that stuff is gone

Finally after 4 waves in a row hull and shields start to matter again instead of super-modified green dice and repositioning.

that's a breakthrough. we should be happy about that.

There's a large difference between hull and shields matter again and "unless you have obscene amounts of hull or green dice your ship might as well not exist"

Anything's better than the PS9+ 3+ agility 2+ action ace party where hp matters not because you're not landing any hits unless you can repeatedly 4/4, crackshot or you're omega level troll

I'm confused as to why you think that stuff is gone

It's not gone - it's being mitigated by the Scum releases in the last two waves. A few pages back will catch ya up.

Agreed. On all points.

There's a distinct lack of respect for green dice nowadays

nowadays?

excuse me while I laugh myself to death

Are you laughing while asking yourself if green dice have become more or less relevant in light of the last two waves? Because if you aren't, you should be.

I'm laughing at the notion that green dice are something that should be respected

in any sense of the term "respected"

It is all about the numbers of them and the numbers of modifications you can have to make them statistical smoother. You are well aware that Palpatine, Autothrusters, Stim, Countermeasures and Lonewolf are all those tools which make even 2 green dice on Dengaroo super reliable. That's is indeed a development which gets pushed in the last waves more, mainly because of Autothrusters + Palpatine + Stealth Device on ships with token stacks and high base agility.

Same has for red dice if you think about it, torp scouts bring 19 out of 20 cases 4 hits. Palp Aces defend against that once per turn in 17 out of 20 cases too and take zero damage. That is indeed the opposite of fickle dice, flukes happen, especially to you, but fickle dice mechanics you can find on old stuff like Biggs, a lot of ships these day work because their dice ain't fickle. Which is the usual case with competitive games as the players always seek to eliminate the random out of their game.

Fair. Sorry I got a bit zealous. How about I retract "respected" for "mechanically relevant and/or significant"? Now answer the question: Have green dice become more or less mechanically relevant and/or significant as a result of the last few waves? Has their value as a defensive mechanism increased or diminished?

Both? If you can modify the hell out of them (Autothrusters, Palp, Dengaroo), they're great. If you can't, you'd much rather trade your one or two green dice in for more hp.

What wave did Palp and Autothrusters come out?

Palp: Who knows... Not in the last "few" waves

Star Viper: Wave 6... Not in the last "few" waves

I'm asking about a recent trend. More recent than Wave 6.

Fickle dice can become statistical mostly reliable if you roll of them often enough. Low amounts of dice per roll need tons of rolls to achieve this (or tons of modifications), which means rebel regen kept before fickle dice relevant. The emergence of super accurate offensive dice and alpha strikes removed all ships which rely on fickle dice out of favor. So yeah that trend of hyper reliable green dice or no green dice at all is new. They were avaible before, but they were not the only viable form of green dice before.

Though even back in the old days, C3PO was exclusively used to make your green dice reliable. ;-)

It is all about the numbers of them and the numbers of modifications you can have to make them statistical smoother. You are well aware that Palpatine, Autothrusters, Stim, Countermeasures and Lonewolf are all those tools which make even 2 green dice on Dengaroo super reliable.

Very reliable, but still vulnerable to the occassional streak of improbable fortune. E.g., practicing Palp Aces (for like my fourth time ever) against Dengaroo the other day Whisper and Omega across two turns rolled something like 12 hits while Dengar got, uh, two usable results out of his Lone Wolf and infinifocus.

And then it was still a nightmare because intelligence agent on Manaroo is the last you want to see when you're rocking four whole hitpoints and she's got painbot and feedback.

Finally after 4 waves in a row hull and shields start to matter again instead of super-modified green dice and repositioning.

that's a breakthrough. we should be happy about that.

There's a large difference between hull and shields matter again and "unless you have obscene amounts of hull or green dice your ship might as well not exist"

Anything's better than the PS9+ 3+ agility 2+ action ace party where hp matters not because you're not landing any hits unless you can repeatedly 4/4, crackshot or you're omega level troll

I'm confused as to why you think that stuff is gone

With Partybus being able to push through all the sh#$ defence layers, at PS2, PS3 Uboats laying enough hate to make rebel uber-regen-aces squeal, and new PS5-6 Defender being able to out-chew even old PS9-dodgy-aces, more Illicits being able to DERP damage over all the super-mitigation, and the Ghost with it's grand ace slapper Autoblaster turret?

I think it's now definitely not THE ONLY WAY

Definitely. Lots of options for Scum faction to ignore defense. You'd think the balance would come in the form of arc-limitations but the flag ships for Scum are all large-based and either have 180° or 360° arcs.

Large bases are seemingly more and more agile than even some Aces. And **** is the Shadow Caster fast.

And don't bother saying U-Boats need arc to unload ordinance. If you can't sweep the map with three large-base, white s-looping PwT then you're not worthy.

And don't bother saying U-Boats need arc to unload ordinance. If you can't sweep the map with three large-base, white s-looping PwT then you're not worthy.

Primary 2

Let that sink in.

And don't bother saying U-Boats need arc to unload ordinance. If you can't sweep the map with three large-base, white s-looping PwT then you're not worthy.

Primary 2

Let that sink in.

Yeah, it's really holding them back....

And don't bother saying U-Boats need arc to unload ordinance. If you can't sweep the map with three large-base, white s-looping PwT then you're not worthy.

Primary 2

Let that sink in.

Yeah, it's really holding them back....

Rinzler considers them to be overpowered partycrashers without urdnance usage.

Well, I just want to take some popcorn and watch him shoot at Defenders. Just for the hilarity of it.

And don't bother saying U-Boats need arc to unload ordinance. If you can't sweep the map with three large-base, white s-looping PwT then you're not worthy.

Primary 2

Let that sink in.

Yeah, it's really holding them back....

Rinzler considers them to be overpowered partycrashers without urdnance usage.

Well, I just want to take some popcorn and watch him shoot at Defenders. Just for the hilarity of it.

I guess I read it as "even when they aren't unloading torps, they're still getting shots" which is true and one of the reasons they're strong. If he's just saying their primary guns can win games alone, they can't, no.

Defenders can't do **** against Zuckuss + 4-Lom.

Ordinance doesn't even matter! The YV-666 has a 180 arc and covers the whole mat from turn to turn.

Works great right up until it explodes kn the second round of taking fire. Or you get behind it.

Works great right up until it explodes kn the second round of taking fire. Or you get behind it.

Are you talking about the YV-666?

If so, you're saying you're doing 12 points of damage + whatever the YV-666 rolls with its 1 defense dice in two rounds? With what?

Also, good luck "getting behind it" and focus-firing it down (again, 12 points of damage in two rounds - very impressive. What's you secret?) while also dealing with two Torp Boats or Dengar hunting you down from your own rear...

Works great right up until it explodes kn the second round of taking fire. Or you get behind it.

Are you talking about the YV-666?

If so, you're saying you're doing 12 points of damage + whatever the YV-666 rolls with its 1 defense dice in two rounds? With what?

Many top tier lists can do 6+ damage per round much issue: u-boats and crack swarms are self-explanatory, brobots do that as well with ease, most stuff with a VCX as well etc. Hell, any list that boasts more than 8-9 attack dice total should be able to two-round an YV-666 without singificant trouble.

Only top-tier lists I think would struggle with doing that are Dengaroo and some versions of Palp Aces.

Works great right up until it explodes kn the second round of taking fire. Or you get behind it.

Are you talking about the YV-666?

If so, you're saying you're doing 12 points of damage + whatever the YV-666 rolls with its 1 defense dice in two rounds? With what?

Many top tier lists can do 6+ damage per round much issue: u-boats and crack swarms are self-explanatory, brobots do that as well with ease, most stuff with a VCX as well etc. Hell, any list that boasts more than 8-9 attack dice total should be able to two-round an YV-666 without singificant trouble.

Only top-tier lists I think would struggle with doing that are Dengaroo and some versions of Palp Aces.

There are a ton of assumptions in your case.

Let's use U-Boats as an example: All three Boats get to focus-fire on one target with their ordinance for two rounds (in a row)? And they get all hits/crits? And, this is my favorite, you were able to set up the last two caveats in a way that your squad isn't a) depleted from taking one ship (in this case, a YV-666) off the board, and b) not screwed because you spend the first X rounds chasing one ship that is definitely firing back at you?

Guess Scum is a lot more powerful than I thought originally - thanks for proving my point.

Works great right up until it explodes kn the second round of taking fire. Or you get behind it.

Are you talking about the YV-666?

If so, you're saying you're doing 12 points of damage + whatever the YV-666 rolls with its 1 defense dice in two rounds? With what?

Also, good luck "getting behind it" and focus-firing it down (again, 12 points of damage in two rounds - very impressive. What's you secret?) while also dealing with two Torp Boats or Dengar hunting you down from your own rear...

I was posting in response to the comment about defenders against zuckuss and 4lom. My triple defender list has 9 -attack dice (or 12 at range 1) and 2/3 of the ships have bith focus and target lock. Doing 12 damage to a 1 agility ship in 2 rounds is easy. And defenders are fast. I could get behind a yv666 without taking more than one round of shooting if i race in close for the first round of combat to ensure I dont bump if it stops (which it cant if it used zuckuss unless it has ID). Or just let it bump so it cant shoot anyway and kturn behind the next round.

Dengar following me is rather less than scary if he doesnt have zuckuss. Torp boats slightly more so, but only until they run out of torpedoes. And with focus/tl its entirely possible to survive some of those too. After that, 2 attack primaries have a rather difficult time hitting 3 agility behind 2 tokens

Works great right up until it explodes kn the second round of taking fire. Or you get behind it.

Are you talking about the YV-666?

If so, you're saying you're doing 12 points of damage + whatever the YV-666 rolls with its 1 defense dice in two rounds? With what?

Many top tier lists can do 6+ damage per round much issue: u-boats and crack swarms are self-explanatory, brobots do that as well with ease, most stuff with a VCX as well etc. Hell, any list that boasts more than 8-9 attack dice total should be able to two-round an YV-666 without singificant trouble.

Only top-tier lists I think would struggle with doing that are Dengaroo and some versions of Palp Aces.

There are a ton of assumptions in your case.

Let's use U-Boats as an example: All three Boats get to focus-fire on one target with their ordinance for two rounds (in a row)? And they get all hits/crits? And, this is my favorite, you were able to set up the last two caveats in a way that your squad isn't a) depleted from taking one ship (in this case, a YV-666) off the board, and b) not screwed because you spend the first X rounds chasing one ship that is definitely firing back at you?

Guess Scum is a lot more powerful than I thought originally - thanks for proving my point.

Exactly what tons of assumptions? Only assumption I made was that YV-666 will be focused by all available ships for 2 rounds and that they will get shots (or at least most of them for crack swarms) both rounds (not a huge problem given YV's dial).

Also, I made exactly 0 considerations regarding how smart of an idea is to focus the YV or how the game would go from there. You claim focusing down an YV-666 in 2 rounds, I merely rebutted your point by giving you a bunch of lists that, under most normal game circumstances, can do that.

Also, you seem to think u-boats would need 2 rounds of torp shots to finish off an YV. That's cute 3 boats with proton/plasma/plasma roll 3 dice, usually scoring a combination of 4,4,3 hits/crits (odds of 4 hits on each are about 74%). That's 11 damage total but at least 1 plasma will do 1 more damage due to going into an YV's 6 shields so 12 damage total on average. you get 3 rolls of 1 green, rolling 1 evade on average. This means that, after a round of 3 torps you'll be at 1 hp (with a not so small chance of dead if you didn't roll your evade or he got any Direct Hits). 2 rounds was a generous estimate assuming a couple of torps and a couple of turret shots.