There are a lot one-factor ships that would nothing without that one thing. Just like there are countless ships that would be meta-defining with the addition of that one thing.

We don't have the luxury of choosing which ships get that perfect combination. But I'll be ****ed if I won't complain about an insane alpha strike at an unprecedented price point and a statistically perfect list that allows one its two ships to solo half of the X-Wing universe. Then there's Zuckuss. Ships don't even need to be great - they just need a crew slot. And, wow - brace yourself - that same ships used in both of those lists have a crew slot.

U-Boats are great for the game.

No more TLT's.

No more obnoxious regen ****.

Finished off the last of the fat turret players.

Once Palp Aces is eliminated from the meta, it'll be perfect. Then you'll be free to simply fly quad PS 4 TIE Bomber and blow U-Boats away.

TIE Defenders perform very well against U-Boats and Imperial 2 hard green to victory babies are still crying, this is how greedy they are. A ship that gets assigned an evade token for doing a white K-Turn and that's not good enough for them, have to nerf everything that could ever possibly kill Soontir.

Remember: Imperial players are so greedy that they whined about the stresshog during the wave 7 meta.

Sooooo...you're calling something even the game devs considered broken, so much so that they actually erraraed a part of it, a good thing? You realize it's because of that list you're rubber stamping that the lists that preyed on Palp Aces, your pet peeve (expect you use it), were pushed out? How can something that strengthened the list you campaign against nonstop be good?

Because the stresshog isn't that effective of a counter to Palp Aces, especially now that Defenders are good.

One of the easiest ships to arc dodge is a BTL-A4 Y-Wing, and with Autothrusters and x7 Evades and Palpatine, Palp Aces is pretty good against the stresshog.

And PS 10 Poe doesn't count as a Palp Aces counter. That's just the obnoxious rebel equivalent of Palp Aces. Besides, Inquisitor takes him out pretty easily, no Autothrusters.

So sacrificing a more diverse meta of ships that weren't 100% effective against Palp Aces for a more homogenized meta of ships....that aren't 100% effective against Palp Aces is worth it?

Let's use some of your words and logic here, shall we? You keep claiming Palp Aces are invincible, therefore the U-boats do just about as much good against it as the previous lists. So, U-Boats only limit competitive lists that aren't Palp Aces, pushing more people to use the "no skill" and "invincible" Palp Aces. You want that? Yeah, it killed some other lists you find annoying, but it also caused the increase of popularity of a list you call broken. Is that really worth it?

I'm still waiting on your comment on my point on the devs.

I'm trying to put forth the argument that Palp Aces should be nerfed so that U-Boats won't dominate so hard. Palp Aces eliminates all U-Boat counters and U-Boats eliminate all Palp Aces counters.

But U-Boats can be more easily countered with PS bids and Biggs and asteroid placement and just general in-game tactics. Palp Aces counters are things like autoblaster weapons and Vader crew and Feedback Array and Conner Nets, stuff that's finicky and not very useful against ships that aren't worth 7-8 points per hit point.

So if we're going to nerf one of the two, we nerf Palp Aces. Preferably by replacing him with Tarkin in the standard game. Tarkin would also fix some other problem builds/ships, like Poe and Dengaroo and Deadeye U-Boats.

Now, you argue that the U-Boats are more easily countered by certain things, but they work on Palp Aces too.

You out PS an Ace, you can try to keep them in arc. Got multiple higher PS ships? Then you can coordinate fire, and Palp only works once. No, it's not assured, but that's the point of dice in the game.

Biggs just works everywhere, buying your heavy hitters time to chew through defenses.

I'll admit that Palp Ace's don't care as much about Asteroids, but the shuttle can still get screwed if it lands on one and heaven help you if a maneuver is miscalculated and an Ace ends up on a rock. Again, Palp only works once. If you're using "general in-game tactics", you can get multiple guns on a stranded Ace. Not always, but if you've predicted your opponent's moves right, it can happen.

And finally, general in-game tactics. That means using what you have to overcome your opponent. You say that U-Boats are easier to counter with conventional tactics. But that all depends on play style and knowledge. I would rather take on a Palp Aces list then U-Boats because I know how to use general in-game tactics to beat them. And I've done it with lists not built to do so. The tactics depend on the player.

You bring Tarkin up again. And I'll say again, I would love him in standard play. I'm just sad you are using him as a pawn in your pet peeve.

I've heard you "put forth" your arguments many, many times. If you actually debated rather than spam your opinions, then ignore the points that disprove your thesis, I might be more convinced. But you don't. Sad. You can actually bring some interesting ideas and points from time to time. But those times tend to get buried in your crusade against a list you have used to your advantage. Again, you want to put more credibility to your cries? Stop using Palp Aces. And hey, since you don't have a beef with them, use U-Boats. At least then, your actions will agree with your words.

Now, about that devs point...

lands on one and heaven help you if a maneuver is miscalculated and an Ace ends up on a rock. Again, Palp only works once. If you're using "general in-game tactics", you can get multiple guns on a stranded Ace. Not always, but if you've predicted opponent's moves right it can happen

Regarding predicting an ace's moves, unless it's for a block it's not very helpful. Everyone and their dog can predict when the average Soontir will do a 2 turn. Ut's semi useless though because he will do a boost and barrel roll after he knows where most/all of your ships ended up. Predicting U-boats helps a lot more, because they lack high ps repositioning and their low ps repositioning comes at the cost of their torp shot.

Most of what you said is equally applicable to u-boats and Palp aces

Most of what you said is equally applicable to u-boats and Palp aces

There are a lot one-factor ships that would nothing without that one thing. Just like there are countless ships that would be meta-defining with the addition of that one thing.

We don't have the luxury of choosing which ships get that perfect combination. But I'll be ****ed if I won't complain about an insane alpha strike at an unprecedented price point and a statistically perfect list that allows one its two ships to solo half of the X-Wing universe. Then there's Zuckuss. Ships don't even need to be great - they just need a crew slot. And, wow - brace yourself - that same ships used in both of those lists have a crew slot.

U-Boats are great for the game.

No more TLT's.

No more obnoxious regen ****.

Finished off the last of the fat turret players.

Once Palp Aces is eliminated from the meta, it'll be perfect. Then you'll be free to simply fly quad PS 4 TIE Bomber and blow U-Boats away.

TIE Defenders perform very well against U-Boats and Imperial 2 hard green to victory babies are still crying, this is how greedy they are. A ship that gets assigned an evade token for doing a white K-Turn and that's not good enough for them, have to nerf everything that could ever possibly kill Soontir.

Remember: Imperial players are so greedy that they whined about the stresshog during the wave 7 meta.

Sooooo...you're calling something even the game devs considered broken, so much so that they actually erraraed a part of it, a good thing? You realize it's because of that list you're rubber stamping that the lists that preyed on Palp Aces, your pet peeve (expect you use it), were pushed out? How can something that strengthened the list you campaign against nonstop be good?

Because the stresshog isn't that effective of a counter to Palp Aces, especially now that Defenders are good.

One of the easiest ships to arc dodge is a BTL-A4 Y-Wing, and with Autothrusters and x7 Evades and Palpatine, Palp Aces is pretty good against the stresshog.

And PS 10 Poe doesn't count as a Palp Aces counter. That's just the obnoxious rebel equivalent of Palp Aces. Besides, Inquisitor takes him out pretty easily, no Autothrusters.

So sacrificing a more diverse meta of ships that weren't 100% effective against Palp Aces for a more homogenized meta of ships....that aren't 100% effective against Palp Aces is worth it?

Let's use some of your words and logic here, shall we? You keep claiming Palp Aces are invincible, therefore the U-boats do just about as much good against it as the previous lists. So, U-Boats only limit competitive lists that aren't Palp Aces, pushing more people to use the "no skill" and "invincible" Palp Aces. You want that? Yeah, it killed some other lists you find annoying, but it also caused the increase of popularity of a list you call broken. Is that really worth it?

I'm still waiting on your comment on my point on the devs.

I'm trying to put forth the argument that Palp Aces should be nerfed so that U-Boats won't dominate so hard. Palp Aces eliminates all U-Boat counters and U-Boats eliminate all Palp Aces counters.

But U-Boats can be more easily countered with PS bids and Biggs and asteroid placement and just general in-game tactics. Palp Aces counters are things like autoblaster weapons and Vader crew and Feedback Array and Conner Nets, stuff that's finicky and not very useful against ships that aren't worth 7-8 points per hit point.

So if we're going to nerf one of the two, we nerf Palp Aces. Preferably by replacing him with Tarkin in the standard game. Tarkin would also fix some other problem builds/ships, like Poe and Dengaroo and Deadeye U-Boats.

Okay. Better. Still haven't truly answered the part about the devs, but I can work with what you gave me. Nice to see you admit Palp Aces aren't invincible and have things that work against them.

Now, you argue that the U-Boats are more easily countered by certain things, but they work on Palp Aces too.

You out PS an Ace, you can try to keep them in arc. Got multiple higher PS ships? Then you can coordinate fire, and Palp only works once. No, it's not assured, but that's the point of dice in the game.

Biggs just works everywhere, buying your heavy hitters time to chew through defenses.

I'll admit that Palp Ace's don't care as much about Asteroids, but the shuttle can still get screwed if it lands on one and heaven help you if a maneuver is miscalculated and an Ace ends up on a rock. Again, Palp only works once. If you're using "general in-game tactics", you can get multiple guns on a stranded Ace. Not always, but if you've predicted your opponent's moves right, it can happen.

And finally, general in-game tactics. That means using what you have to overcome your opponent. You say that U-Boats are easier to counter with conventional tactics. But that all depends on play style and knowledge. I would rather take on a Palp Aces list then U-Boats because I know how to use general in-game tactics to beat them. And I've done it with lists not built to do so. The tactics depend on the player.

You bring Tarkin up again. And I'll say again, I would love him in standard play. I'm just sad you are using him as a pawn in your pet peeve.

I've heard you "put forth" your arguments many, many times. If you actually debated rather than spam your opinions, then ignore the points that disprove your thesis, I might be more convinced. But you don't. Sad. You can actually bring some interesting ideas and points from time to time. But those times tend to get buried in your crusade against a list you have used to your advantage. Again, you want to put more credibility to your cries? Stop using Palp Aces. And hey, since you don't have a beef with them, use U-Boats. At least then, your actions will agree with your words.

Now, about that devs point...

What I mean by general in-game tactics is rule of 11, asteroid placement, bumping, etc.

Those have much more of an effect against U-Boats than Palp Aces. Triple Scout is just a large based version of 3x Dagger Squadron, 3x FCS, 3x HLC that /actually/ works.

U-Boats want to concentrate their fire, so they want to stay close to each other in order to better facilitate that. They need to get something in arc, and they're large bases. U-Boats are one of the easiest lists to screw with by using asteroids against them.

You can use the rule of 11 against them. They're jousters.

You think Palp Aces gives a **** about asteroid placement? No.

Think they care about the rule of 11? No.

Think they care about bumping? No. Defenders certainly don't (especially Vessery with x7 and Juke), and a Soontir with only 4 agility and Palpatine has a 48% chance of taking no damage from a 3/3 hit attack, that's IF you get 3 hits. Not to mention that the ship that was used to bump is one less gun shooting at the ace.

The devs point? I was going to respond, but refrained from doing so because I think the current design team is the reason why this game is so obnoxious. They're the reason the Phantom was so obnoxious, they're to blame for wave 5 turretwing and Super Dash and saturating the game with turrets, they're to blame for Autothrusters which are almost as bad as turrets, they're to blame for (quad) TLT which was is only moderately less worse than fat turretwing, they're responsible for Palpatine. They're responsible for the Inquisitor and all green dial super dash what skill WOW. And for you jumpmaster haters, yes, U-Boats and Dengaroo.

They're buffoons. They nerfed TLT/Cluster Missiles and Tactician. They nerfed U-Boats. But the ability to pull 3 evades out of your *******? Not seeing the problem here!

Game would be much better with Majorjuggler in charge.

Game would be much better with Majorjuggler in charge.

I think this has been addressed in various places: FFG is unwilling/unable to pay the kind of cash a professional number cruncher would require.

Game would be much better with Majorjuggler in charge.

I think this has been addressed in various places: FFG is unwilling/unable to pay the kind of cash a professional number cruncher would require.

I'm aware of this, I just used Majorjuggler as an example of a non-buffoon.

c3po specifies before dice modifiers (even though he himself is a dice modification, so Omega L laughs at him)

so he happens before either attacker or defender modifies

ie before zuckuss

also before juke

The text for c3p0 (off x-wing wiki which usually inclydes latest FAQ):

Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of evade results. If you roll that many evade results (before modifying dice), add 1 evade result.

Has there ever been an FAQ that the adding of evades (and not just the guessed number) happens before modifying dice?

The FAQ is explicit that you can Juke the extra die from C3PO, so you can Zuckuss it as well, because Zuckuss and Juke have the same timing.

c3po specifies before dice modifiers (even though he himself is a dice modification, so Omega L laughs at him)

so he happens before either attacker or defender modifies

ie before zuckuss

also before juke

The text for c3p0 (off x-wing wiki which usually inclydes latest FAQ):

Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of evade results. If you roll that many evade results (before modifying dice), add 1 evade result.

Has there ever been an FAQ that the adding of evades (and not just the guessed number) happens before modifying dice?

The FAQ is explicit that you can Juke the extra die from C3PO, so you can Zuckuss it as well, because Zuckuss and Juke have the same timing.

I think that settles it then, thanks.

What I mean by general in-game tactics is rule of 11, asteroid placement, bumping, etc.

Those have much more of an effect against U-Boats than Palp Aces. Triple Scout is just a large based version of 3x Dagger Squadron, 3x FCS, 3x HLC that /actually/ works.

U-Boats want to concentrate their fire, so they want to stay close to each other in order to better facilitate that. They need to get something in arc, and they're large bases. U-Boats are one of the easiest lists to screw with by using asteroids against them.

You can use the rule of 11 against them. They're jousters.

You think Palp Aces gives a **** about asteroid placement? No.

Think they care about the rule of 11? No.

Think they care about bumping? No. Defenders certainly don't (especially Vessery with x7 and Juke), and a Soontir with only 4 agility and Palpatine has a 48% chance of taking no damage from a 3/3 hit attack, that's IF you get 3 hits. Not to mention that the ship that was used to bump is one less gun shooting at the ace.

The devs point? I was going to respond, but refrained from doing so because I think the current design team is the reason why this game is so obnoxious. They're the reason the Phantom was so obnoxious, they're to blame for wave 5 turretwing and Super Dash and saturating the game with turrets, they're to blame for Autothrusters which are almost as bad as turrets, they're to blame for (quad) TLT which was is only moderately less worse than fat turretwing, they're responsible for Palpatine. They're responsible for the Inquisitor and all green dial super dash what skill WOW. And for you jumpmaster haters, yes, U-Boats and Dengaroo.

They're buffoons. They nerfed TLT/Cluster Missiles and Tactician. They nerfed U-Boats. But the ability to pull 3 evades out of your *******? Not seeing the problem here!

Game would be much better with Majorjuggler in charge.

Everything cares about asteroid placement. I've seen Aces trapped in asteroids, unable to boost or barrel roll because they'll hit something. And I still stand by the Shuttle being vulnerable to it. That factored into a victory I had against a Palp Aces list. So, everything cares about asteroid placement. Some just find it more bothersome then others.

So you're saying the X-Wing is run by idiots who keep messing up? Then why are you playing? The game has had troubles since the beginning, compounded by the wave 2 introduction of PWTs (and according to you, the introduction of Fel). And that wasn't the current design team. They are trying to make interesting ships and combos to make this game more fun, but they don't have all the time in the world to check every combo of cards to see what is game breaking. Some get through (like Phantoms and U-Boats) and they have attempted to solve the problem. And you are discounting some of their accomplishments. The fix titles for the Defenders are fantastic. They took a ship that saw limited use and made it the power house it should have been from the beginning. And neither title is without its weakness.

And finally, it wraps back around to Palp. You wanna know why he hasn't been nerfed? Because he's working like he was designed to. They made him to be a powerful presence on the battlefield, because it fit the character. You keep claiming he's broken, but I've seen again and again people proving you wrong. Part of your list of dev mess ups (i.e. AT, The Inquisitor, Super Dash) is just spiteful whining. They're great, don't get me wrong, but they also have their weaknesses that can be exploited by "general in-game tactics". Same with Palp Aces.

Your arguments are still need work.

If palp aces is so no talent unbeatable, what is a team that beats it consistantly called then?

A counter.

Good job, everyone. You begged and begged and your overlords obliged.

Whisper. Nerfed, softly. Dies to Zuckuss and stress.

Fel, Inquisitor. Dies to Zuckuss, Slicer Tools and stress.

I'd go on but my plane is about to take off.

Tell me I'm wrong while I'm in the air.

A bunch of greedy Imperial players who are mad that something can actually hit Soontir for once. And a bunch of no-skill rebel players angry that they can't play Poe Han or Super Dash or something else obnoxious and dominate. I honestly don't know which group I hate more.

I mean top of worlds when palpatine hit the scene was 2 regen rebel lists right? I don't think the ridiculously broken palpatine aces has taken a worlds title yet.

Agreed. On all points.

There's a distinct lack of respect for green dice nowadays (a boomerang from the Aces days recent past) and if your list cannot push through 3+ damage per ship, consistently, each round, chances are you're DOA. The ships that run the meta now - excluding the almighty Imperials - are 10+ hull/shields deep and putting out alpha strikes or 3/4-5 dice primaries with sooo many modifications... and these modification don't just effect their own red dice (Dengar, Glitterstim, Guidance Chips, ...) but also your opponents' greens (surprise: Zuckuss and 4-LOM).

Furthering the power-creep and straying away from the agility mechanic, Feedback Array (surprisingly quiet but potent) now has a counterpart - Black Market Slicer Tools. For the ships that can't get roll with the fast or strong, there is a way to by-pass all the things that make up space-dog-fighting - arc, firepower, agility, and shields. Just roll a dice and spend the action that would've went to focus or a fruitless target lock (because your Binyare Pirate just got arc-dodged, you can keep your Concussion Missiles). If anyone should be happy about BMST and the Latts crew it's PGS. These two were made to counter PtL Aces.

To my benefit, though, they can also be used against Dengaroo and the Over-Clocked JM-5Ks. BUT THEY'RE STILL SCUM ONLY.

Obviously I'm harping on Scum but the VCX-100 shares a lot of similarities with the above gripes. It's just not as cool to rip on a faction that can only win Worlds and literally (not literally) nothing else.

someone clearly mistakens partybus for some pagan god that dominates the meta

hint. it doesn't

Agreed. On all points.

There's a distinct lack of respect for green dice nowadays

nowadays?

excuse me while I laugh myself to death

more seriously, if you're relying on agility as a balancing mechanic, don't. It's utterly random and a holdover from freaking 40k of all games. X-wing would be better without it (ie it could learn from Armada)

someone clearly mistakens partybus for some pagan god that dominates the meta

hint. it doesn't

Someone clearly doesn't read.

Palp Aces is loved or hated but hasn't won the "meta"-defining event (Worlds) since when? Oh, right.. So when I say Scum is taking the place of Palp Aces, where do you fancy this rears its face in "the meta"? As ClanofWolves points out, no one is really cramping up because Poe won World's last year. People are sick of having the Jumpmaster and now the Party Bus slammed down their throat, eliminating some fun lists from local or regional metas. Just like Palp Aces stifled list building, and PwT before them.

Someone clearly mistakens (sic) a lot.

Agreed. On all points.

There's a distinct lack of respect for green dice nowadays

nowadays?

excuse me while I laugh myself to death

Are you laughing while asking yourself if green dice have become more or less relevant in light of the last two waves? Because if you aren't, you should be.

Agreed. On all points.

There's a distinct lack of respect for green dice nowadays

nowadays?

excuse me while I laugh myself to death

Are you laughing while asking yourself if green dice have become more or less relevant in light of the last two waves? Because if you aren't, you should be.

I'm laughing at the notion that green dice are something that should be respected

in any sense of the term "respected"

Agreed. On all points.

There's a distinct lack of respect for green dice nowadays

nowadays?

excuse me while I laugh myself to death

Are you laughing while asking yourself if green dice have become more or less relevant in light of the last two waves? Because if you aren't, you should be.

I'm laughing at the notion that green dice are something that should be respected

in any sense of the term "respected"

Fair. Sorry I got a bit zealous. How about I retract "respected" for "mechanically relevant and/or significant"? Now answer the question: Have green dice become more or less mechanically relevant and/or significant as a result of the last few waves? Has their value as a defensive mechanism increased or diminished?

Fair. Sorry I got a bit zealous. How about I retract "respected" for "mechanically relevant and/or significant"? Now answer the question: Have green dice become more or less mechanically relevant and/or significant as a result of the last few waves? Has their value as a defensive mechanism increased or diminished?

Both? If you can modify the hell out of them (Autothrusters, Palp, Dengaroo), they're great. If you can't, you'd much rather trade your one or two green dice in for more hp.

Fair. Sorry I got a bit zealous. How about I retract "respected" for "mechanically relevant and/or significant"? Now answer the question: Have green dice become more or less mechanically relevant and/or significant as a result of the last few waves? Has their value as a defensive mechanism increased or diminished?

Both? If you can modify the hell out of them (Autothrusters, Palp, Dengaroo), they're great. If you can't, you'd much rather trade your one or two green dice in for more hp.

What wave did Palp and Autothrusters come out?

Palp: Who knows... Not in the last "few" waves

Star Viper: Wave 6... Not in the last "few" waves

I'm asking about a recent trend. More recent than Wave 6.

Agreed. On all points.

There's a distinct lack of respect for green dice nowadays

nowadays?

excuse me while I laugh myself to death

Are you laughing while asking yourself if green dice have become more or less relevant in light of the last two waves? Because if you aren't, you should be.

I'm laughing at the notion that green dice are something that should be respected

in any sense of the term "respected"

Fair. Sorry I got a bit zealous. How about I retract "respected" for "mechanically relevant and/or significant"? Now answer the question: Have green dice become more or less mechanically relevant and/or significant as a result of the last few waves? Has their value as a defensive mechanism increased or diminished?

well that's the thing

every meaning of "respected" includes relevancy in game mechanics

Defense Dice are a horrible, antiquated means of mitigating damage and honestly I don't think this game benefits from a mechanic that can win and lose games entirely based on dice rather than player involvement. It sometimes leads to horribly uninvolved wastes of time rather than actual games

so, **** em

I think Zuckuss is aokay because if you were relying on green dice rather than guaranteed defenses, then you were going to be disappointed sooner or later. Now you're just getting disappointed sooner

the only real problem with zuckuss and 4lom is they don't have in-arc restrictions, which kinda runs counter to the Jm5k's entire theme of arc matters (torps and dengar)

Finally after 4 waves in a row hull and shields start to matter again instead of super-modified green dice and repositioning.

that's a breakthrough. we should be happy about that.

We're going to have to accept that we disagree about green dice.

I like the randomness they (and the red dice) bring to the game... Not to say I don't appreciate modifications - I like risk mitigation, too.

The trend is going in your favor.

What wave did Palp and Autothrusters come out?

Palp: Who knows... Not in the last "few" waves

Star Viper: Wave 6... Not in the last "few" waves

I'm asking about a recent trend. More recent than Wave 6.

It is a recent development, because massive ordnance alpha strikes are a recent development. If you do not have the green dice to soak ordnance hits with no damage, you must have hitpoints to soak the damage. Poe got pushed out overnight because 6 (or 7) hp behind 2 agility gets you killed in one round of combat.

We're going to have to accept that we disagree about green dice.

I like the randomness they (and the red dice) bring to the game... Not to say I don't appreciate modifications - I like risk mitigation, too.

The trend is going in your favor.

the trend needs more guaranteed damage bombs