Any Imperial ace or mini-ace that can't take Autothrusters. (from around 41:30)What exactly has Dengaroo chased out of the meta ?
Thats what defenders are for
Scum is the new "Palp Aces"
There are a lot one-factor ships that would nothing without that one thing. Just like there are countless ships that would be meta-defining with the addition of that one thing.
We don't have the luxury of choosing which ships get that perfect combination. But I'll be ****ed if I won't complain about an insane alpha strike at an unprecedented price point and a statistically perfect list that allows one its two ships to solo half of the X-Wing universe. Then there's Zuckuss. Ships don't even need to be great - they just need a crew slot. And, wow - brace yourself - that same ships used in both of those lists have a crew slot.
No more TLT's.
No more obnoxious regen ****.
Finished off the last of the fat turret players.
Once Palp Aces is eliminated from the meta, it'll be perfect. Then you'll be free to simply fly quad PS 4 TIE Bomber and blow U-Boats away.
TIE Defenders perform very well against U-Boats and Imperial 2 hard green to victory babies are still crying, this is how greedy they are. A ship that gets assigned an evade token for doing a white K-Turn and that's not good enough for them, have to nerf everything that could ever possibly kill Soontir.
Remember: Imperial players are so greedy that they whined about the stresshog during the wave 7 meta.
Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer"Finished off the last of the fat turret players"
What would you call dengaroo?
Edited by LordFajubi"Finished off the last of the fat turret players"
What would you call dengaroo?
U-Boats are great for the game.There are a lot one-factor ships that would nothing without that one thing. Just like there are countless ships that would be meta-defining with the addition of that one thing.
We don't have the luxury of choosing which ships get that perfect combination. But I'll be ****ed if I won't complain about an insane alpha strike at an unprecedented price point and a statistically perfect list that allows one its two ships to solo half of the X-Wing universe. Then there's Zuckuss. Ships don't even need to be great - they just need a crew slot. And, wow - brace yourself - that same ships used in both of those lists have a crew slot.
No more TLT's.
No more obnoxious regen ****.
Finished off the last of the fat turret players.
Once Palp Aces is eliminated from the meta, it'll be perfect. Then you'll be free to simply fly quad PS 4 TIE Bomber and blow U-Boats away.
TIE Defenders perform very well against U-Boats and Imperial 2 hard green to victory babies are still crying, this is how greedy they are. A ship that gets assigned an evade token for doing a white K-Turn and that's not good enough for them, have to nerf everything that could ever possibly kill Soontir.
Remember: Imperial players are so greedy that they whined about the stresshog during the wave 7 meta.
... what?
How in the world would 4 Tie Bombers with Ordinance stand a chance against a list of x7 Defenders? Or a swarm A-Wings? Or Super Dash and Corran? What about anything PS5? Could it even kill a Countermeasures Dengaroo and have enough spit left over to take out PtL Manaroo? What are you on about? U-Boats are a problem (because they bury too many other lists) but there's more to Scum faction that is problematic than just the Jumpmaster.
Make Zuckuss 3 points. Wtf is he doing at 1 point?! Homing Missiles is 5 points and is a one-use, 5-dice attack. You can put the 1 point 4-LOM on a 3-attack barge (YV-666) and get the same effect EVERY TURN.
If you remove Palp Aces (hypothetically, literally remove Palp from the game) I bet you'd see a resurgence of some of the slower ships but all that would do is open the game to aces and stress-control, something that Scum is currently more than equipped to handle.
I don't think removing Palp Aces from the meta would help anything but the Scum faction - because right now the Rebels ain't doing ****.
Duncan Howard discusses the implications of triple Torp Boats and Dengaroo, and how these lists have suppressed more ships from the meta than Palp Aces ever did.
Duncan Howard is on my side.
http://mynockpodcast.libsyn.com/episode-33-soontier-one-with-guest-duncan-howard
Starts at 34:00.
What exactly has Dengaroo chased out of the meta ?
The key word is "suppress" - and it's any list that relies on green dice (FGD will say that makes you bad player - I disagree).
Duncan specifically says that Omega Leader is obsolete with Dengaroo on the table.
Any stress-control list
Lists without Autothrusters
Rebels in general (minus the VCX shenanigans that I want to try)
Regarding ships that rely on greens: the most frequent occurence of such ships was in Palp Aces. Is there anyone not playing Palp Aces that feels less Palp Aces is a bad thing?
Stress control died from JMs long before Dengaroo.
Rebels in general I wholeheartedly disagree. Rebels can countr triple scouts and low agility high hp rebels also give Dengaroo a very hard time. What are you going to do, Zuckuss Han's one green which he c3p0-ed already? The problem is that these lists must also beat Palp Aces at the same time.
Yes. Me.
But let's go down this rabbit hole: Who plays competitively and does not play every factions at some point?
Stress-control died from the faction that we 've been going on about this entire thread? Crazy...
What faction benefited most from the Stress-Control meta? Oh that's right - Rebels.
You're right, though: 0 and 1 agility ships don't care about Zuckuss.
Good thing VCX-100 (Ghost) and Biggs are legit - find out more here . It's unfortunate that no Rebel list is viable without Biggs.
Please calm down. You're starting to refer to yourself by the plural >_>
Guess I've been talking to myself for 8 pages.
Sorry folks, nothing to see here.
U-Boats are great for the game.
No more TLT's.
No more obnoxious regen ****.
Finished off the last of the fat turret players.
Once Palp Aces is eliminated from the meta, it'll be perfect. Then you'll be free to simply fly quad PS 4 TIE Bomber and blow U-Boats away.
TIE Defenders perform very well against U-Boats and Imperial 2 hard green to victory babies are still crying, this is how greedy they are. A ship that gets assigned an evade token for doing a white K-Turn and that's not good enough for them, have to nerf everything that could ever possibly kill Soontir.
Remember: Imperial players are so greedy that they whined about the stresshog during the wave 7 meta.
I wonder what would happen if everyone took the ParaGoomba approach?
"U-Boats are obnoxious **** and are played by no skill babies. Scum players are so greedy defending their no skill Jumpmasters with white sloops and four dice. I could play triple scouts blindfolded while smearing ice cream on my face. Scum players don't deserve to win. "
...Yeah, it's probably a good thing it's only ParaGoomba doing it.
Edited by WingedSpiderYou want to deafeat Palpace? Make them bump.
You want to defeat 3 Jumpmaster? Don't be in and use asteroids.
Why are you (satirically) equivocating the notion that a faction "deserves" to win with one (or many, who gives a ****) person's opinion about broken mechanics of the game? I certainly don't believe Scum deserves anything - nor does any other faction.
I'm pretty firm in my position that Scum crew and some ships are undercosted. PGS has his romance with the Emperor.
I think we all agree that skill (and a little dice chance) determine who wins, no form of right or deserving is involved. Some people just dislike seeing 6 JM5Ks on the board. Or mirror match Palp Aces.
Deserve. Psh.
Ignore-finger getting really itchy here.
U-Boats are great for the game.There are a lot one-factor ships that would nothing without that one thing. Just like there are countless ships that would be meta-defining with the addition of that one thing.
We don't have the luxury of choosing which ships get that perfect combination. But I'll be ****ed if I won't complain about an insane alpha strike at an unprecedented price point and a statistically perfect list that allows one its two ships to solo half of the X-Wing universe. Then there's Zuckuss. Ships don't even need to be great - they just need a crew slot. And, wow - brace yourself - that same ships used in both of those lists have a crew slot.
No more TLT's.
No more obnoxious regen ****.
Finished off the last of the fat turret players.
Once Palp Aces is eliminated from the meta, it'll be perfect. Then you'll be free to simply fly quad PS 4 TIE Bomber and blow U-Boats away.
TIE Defenders perform very well against U-Boats and Imperial 2 hard green to victory babies are still crying, this is how greedy they are. A ship that gets assigned an evade token for doing a white K-Turn and that's not good enough for them, have to nerf everything that could ever possibly kill Soontir.
Remember: Imperial players are so greedy that they whined about the stresshog during the wave 7 meta.
Rebels in general I wholeheartedly disagree. Rebels can countr triple scouts and low agility high hp rebels also give Dengaroo a very hard time. What are you going to do, Zuckuss Han's one green which he c3p0-ed already? The problem is that these lists must also beat Palp Aces at the same time.
Uh, you can Zuckuss the 3P0 result since it's added immediately after the roll. Which is kind of a big deal, yes.
"Finished off the last of the fat turret players"
What would you call dengaroo?
A fat turret list. I don't mind Dengaroo because it actually jousts, and since it can potentially take out Palp Aces it's okay with me.
Zuckuss wouldn't be such an autoinclude if your opponent's ships weren't hiding behind 4 agility, focus, evade, Palpatine, and potentially autothrusters.
Sooooo...you're calling something even the game devs considered broken, so much so that they actually erraraed a part of it, a good thing? You realize it's because of that list you're rubber stamping that the lists that preyed on Palp Aces, your pet peeve (expect you use it), were pushed out? How can something that strengthened the list you campaign against nonstop be good?U-Boats are great for the game.There are a lot one-factor ships that would nothing without that one thing. Just like there are countless ships that would be meta-defining with the addition of that one thing.
We don't have the luxury of choosing which ships get that perfect combination. But I'll be ****ed if I won't complain about an insane alpha strike at an unprecedented price point and a statistically perfect list that allows one its two ships to solo half of the X-Wing universe. Then there's Zuckuss. Ships don't even need to be great - they just need a crew slot. And, wow - brace yourself - that same ships used in both of those lists have a crew slot.
No more TLT's.
No more obnoxious regen ****.
Finished off the last of the fat turret players.
Once Palp Aces is eliminated from the meta, it'll be perfect. Then you'll be free to simply fly quad PS 4 TIE Bomber and blow U-Boats away.
TIE Defenders perform very well against U-Boats and Imperial 2 hard green to victory babies are still crying, this is how greedy they are. A ship that gets assigned an evade token for doing a white K-Turn and that's not good enough for them, have to nerf everything that could ever possibly kill Soontir.
Remember: Imperial players are so greedy that they whined about the stresshog during the wave 7 meta.
Because the stresshog isn't that effective of a counter to Palp Aces, especially now that Defenders are good.
One of the easiest ships to arc dodge is a BTL-A4 Y-Wing, and with Autothrusters and x7 Evades and Palpatine, Palp Aces is pretty good against the stresshog.
And PS 10 Poe doesn't count as a Palp Aces counter. That's just the obnoxious rebel equivalent of Palp Aces. Besides, Inquisitor takes him out pretty easily, no Autothrusters.
Scum are great, Imperials are good..... and Rebels are crazy!
Because the stresshog isn't that effective of a counter to Palp Aces, especially now that Defenders are good.Sooooo...you're calling something even the game devs considered broken, so much so that they actually erraraed a part of it, a good thing? You realize it's because of that list you're rubber stamping that the lists that preyed on Palp Aces, your pet peeve (expect you use it), were pushed out? How can something that strengthened the list you campaign against nonstop be good?U-Boats are great for the game.There are a lot one-factor ships that would nothing without that one thing. Just like there are countless ships that would be meta-defining with the addition of that one thing.
We don't have the luxury of choosing which ships get that perfect combination. But I'll be ****ed if I won't complain about an insane alpha strike at an unprecedented price point and a statistically perfect list that allows one its two ships to solo half of the X-Wing universe. Then there's Zuckuss. Ships don't even need to be great - they just need a crew slot. And, wow - brace yourself - that same ships used in both of those lists have a crew slot.
No more TLT's.
No more obnoxious regen ****.
Finished off the last of the fat turret players.
Once Palp Aces is eliminated from the meta, it'll be perfect. Then you'll be free to simply fly quad PS 4 TIE Bomber and blow U-Boats away.
TIE Defenders perform very well against U-Boats and Imperial 2 hard green to victory babies are still crying, this is how greedy they are. A ship that gets assigned an evade token for doing a white K-Turn and that's not good enough for them, have to nerf everything that could ever possibly kill Soontir.
Remember: Imperial players are so greedy that they whined about the stresshog during the wave 7 meta.
One of the easiest ships to arc dodge is a BTL-A4 Y-Wing, and with Autothrusters and x7 Evades and Palpatine, Palp Aces is pretty good against the stresshog.
And PS 10 Poe doesn't count as a Palp Aces counter. That's just the obnoxious rebel equivalent of Palp Aces. Besides, Inquisitor takes him out pretty easily, no Autothrusters.
Let's use some of your words and logic here, shall we? You keep claiming Palp Aces are invincible, therefore the U-boats do just about as much good against it as the previous lists. So, U-Boats only limit competitive lists that aren't Palp Aces, pushing more people to use the "no skill" and "invincible" Palp Aces. You want that? Yeah, it killed some other lists you find annoying, but it also caused the increase of popularity of a list you call broken. Is that really worth it?
I'm still waiting on your comment on my point on the devs.
Edited by SabineKeyWell I think we can all agree that is a "do not want" situation
I love Palp Aces - they were my first. They're effective, fun, and yes, very powerful. But I do not want to ever see just one or three list types at tournaments. Especially if it's Palp Aces and Trando/U-Boats.
But god, am I grateful that I never have to go to a tourney and have 4 of my 5 opponents running Bro Bots. ****, I hate Bro Bots after that tournament.
So sacrificing a more diverse meta of ships that weren't 100% effective against Palp Aces for a more homogenized meta of ships....that aren't 100% effective against Palp Aces is worth it?Because the stresshog isn't that effective of a counter to Palp Aces, especially now that Defenders are good.Sooooo...you're calling something even the game devs considered broken, so much so that they actually erraraed a part of it, a good thing? You realize it's because of that list you're rubber stamping that the lists that preyed on Palp Aces, your pet peeve (expect you use it), were pushed out? How can something that strengthened the list you campaign against nonstop be good?U-Boats are great for the game.There are a lot one-factor ships that would nothing without that one thing. Just like there are countless ships that would be meta-defining with the addition of that one thing.
We don't have the luxury of choosing which ships get that perfect combination. But I'll be ****ed if I won't complain about an insane alpha strike at an unprecedented price point and a statistically perfect list that allows one its two ships to solo half of the X-Wing universe. Then there's Zuckuss. Ships don't even need to be great - they just need a crew slot. And, wow - brace yourself - that same ships used in both of those lists have a crew slot.
No more TLT's.
No more obnoxious regen ****.
Finished off the last of the fat turret players.
Once Palp Aces is eliminated from the meta, it'll be perfect. Then you'll be free to simply fly quad PS 4 TIE Bomber and blow U-Boats away.
TIE Defenders perform very well against U-Boats and Imperial 2 hard green to victory babies are still crying, this is how greedy they are. A ship that gets assigned an evade token for doing a white K-Turn and that's not good enough for them, have to nerf everything that could ever possibly kill Soontir.
Remember: Imperial players are so greedy that they whined about the stresshog during the wave 7 meta.
One of the easiest ships to arc dodge is a BTL-A4 Y-Wing, and with Autothrusters and x7 Evades and Palpatine, Palp Aces is pretty good against the stresshog.
And PS 10 Poe doesn't count as a Palp Aces counter. That's just the obnoxious rebel equivalent of Palp Aces. Besides, Inquisitor takes him out pretty easily, no Autothrusters.
Let's use some of your words and logic here, shall we? You keep claiming Palp Aces are invincible, therefore the U-boats do just about as much good against it as the previous lists. So, U-Boats only limit competitive lists that aren't Palp Aces, pushing more people to use the "no skill" and "invincible" Palp Aces. You want that? Yeah, it killed some other lists you find annoying, but it also caused the increase of popularity of a list you call broken. Is that really worth it?
I'm still waiting on your comment on my point on the devs.
I'm trying to put forth the argument that Palp Aces should be nerfed so that U-Boats won't dominate so hard. Palp Aces eliminates all U-Boat counters and U-Boats eliminate all Palp Aces counters.
But U-Boats can be more easily countered with PS bids and Biggs and asteroid placement and just general in-game tactics. Palp Aces counters are things like autoblaster weapons and Vader crew and Feedback Array and Conner Nets, stuff that's finicky and not very useful against ships that aren't worth 7-8 points per hit point.
So if we're going to nerf one of the two, we nerf Palp Aces. Preferably by replacing him with Tarkin in the standard game. Tarkin would also fix some other problem builds/ships, like Poe and Dengaroo and Deadeye U-Boats.
Duncan Howard discusses the implications of triple Torp Boats and Dengaroo, and how these lists have suppressed more ships from the meta than Palp Aces ever did.
Duncan Howard is on my side.
http://mynockpodcast.libsyn.com/episode-33-soontier-one-with-guest-duncan-howard
Starts at 34:00.
What exactly has Dengaroo chased out of the meta ?
The key word is "suppress" - and it's any list that relies on green dice (FGD will say that makes you bad player - I disagree).
Duncan specifically says that Omega Leader is obsolete with Dengaroo on the table.
Any stress-control list
Lists without Autothrusters
Rebels in general (minus the VCX shenanigans that I want to try)
Regarding ships that rely on greens: the most frequent occurence of such ships was in Palp Aces. Is there anyone not playing Palp Aces that feels less Palp Aces is a bad thing?
Stress control died from JMs long before Dengaroo.
Rebels in general I wholeheartedly disagree. Rebels can countr triple scouts and low agility high hp rebels also give Dengaroo a very hard time. What are you going to do, Zuckuss Han's one green which he c3p0-ed already? The problem is that these lists must also beat Palp Aces at the same time.
You can actually zuckuss 3pos free evade too, since it adds the evade as a die result, which happens before zuckuss
How so? Adding a result with c3p0 and rerolling with Zuckuss are both modifying dice and, on greens, attacker modifies before defender. Therefore AFAIK you'd first reroll with Zuckuss and then c3p0 would add an evade.
c3po specifies before dice modifiers (even though he himself is a dice modification, so Omega L laughs at him)
so he happens before either attacker or defender modifies
ie before zuckuss
also before juke
c3po specifies before dice modifiers (even though he himself is a dice modification, so Omega L laughs at him)
so he happens before either attacker or defender modifies
ie before zuckuss
also before juke
The text for c3p0 (off x-wing wiki which usually inclydes latest FAQ):
Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of evade results. If you roll that many evade results (before modifying dice), add 1 evade result.
Has there ever been an FAQ that the adding of evades (and not just the guessed number) happens before modifying dice?
c3po specifies before dice modifiers (even though he himself is a dice modification, so Omega L laughs at him)
so he happens before either attacker or defender modifies
ie before zuckuss
also before juke
The text for c3p0 (off x-wing wiki which usually inclydes latest FAQ):
Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of evade results. If you roll that many evade results (before modifying dice), add 1 evade result.
Has there ever been an FAQ that the adding of evades (and not just the guessed number) happens before modifying dice?
no errata/faq, it's just on c3po's card
Some clarification on Zuckuss and C-3PO from this thread .
Edited by Rinzler in a TieReceived this answer:
In response to your rules question:Rules Question:
Can the C3P0 Crew card work on Reroll or does it work on Roll only. Put another way, is there a rule difference between a Roll and a Reroll.C-3PO only works when you (initially) roll dice. Rolls and rerolls are different game concepts. If something has the timing of “when you roll dice” it does not trigger from a reroll.Thanks for playing,
So it seems Roll and ReRoll are not the same thing in this game.By the way, this have nothing to do with (before modifying dice), this part is there to prevent people saying: "I will use a focus to put proper number of evade result". This was there because many people try to "imply" stuff in card just because they don't say to not do it. So by adding (before modifying dice) they make it clear you can't modify the dice. They don't use card text to suddently define game concept. Roll and ReRoll would still be different even if they did not say (before modifying dice) on the card. And even without it you would still not be able to use C3P0 on ReRoll. They did not use that on HLC and you still do not do it on ReRoll.
c3po specifies before dice modifiers (even though he himself is a dice modification, so Omega L laughs at him)
so he happens before either attacker or defender modifies
ie before zuckuss
also before juke
The text for c3p0 (off x-wing wiki which usually inclydes latest FAQ):
Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of evade results. If you roll that many evade results (before modifying dice), add 1 evade result.
Has there ever been an FAQ that the adding of evades (and not just the guessed number) happens before modifying dice?
no errata/faq, it's just on c3po's card
On the card there's nothing stating that the adding of the Evade results happens outside the normal step for adding results, which is the 'Modify Dice' step