if you go with 5 Obsidians then that's even better for me because you have 5 useless ships instead of 4 useful ones.

This is why I would have no interest in fighting you. You obviously don't understand the power 5 TIEs bring to the board. Crackshot while nice, isn't that nessary. 5 obsidian mini swarm has done enough for me through the years to show me the true strength of this little ships. Just like all the others that down play them, they would just spell your doom. Thus I have no interest in playing someone that can't respect those ships, that in it self shows the level of play I would expect, that being a level I wouldn't deem challenging.

Edit: crackshot is much like Palp. They are crutches. They don't make a player great, they make an average player have a chance against a superior opponent.

How many non-crackswarms have you seen make the cut in tournamwnts since wave 8 released? Even dallas parker is flying crackswarm instead of a 7 tie swarm.

I'm curious if statistics from the NoVa open will serve as support or detraction from the notion that Scum has tools available to it that make even Palp worse off and absolutely buries Rebels. Somehow, yes, Crack Swarms still get it done. Which is great in my opinion because they require excellent skill. Trip U-Boats? I'll let you decide. But I'm glad the game kind of rewards good flying (if you're not running a broken list).

For those still saying Palp is just as strong, we've seen him essentially turn into an evade token on defense because Zuckuss/4-LOM neuter everything else - meaning no Palp on offense. And that makes getting through 5+ hull and 4+ shields on 2-3 ships a bit difficult.

Can we please just agree that Scum's niche at the moment is way too close to the reason that people **** themselves crying about Palp Aces? I.e. "Nothing you do will stop me from putting a 13th stress on this Trando to force these 3-4 focused, target locked red dice into your 4 health ships" - which is accompanied by two Torp Boats.

You all can go on about Lothals and Ys but Rebels are in a bad way and now that the green dice matter even less, they continue their downward plunge.

I'm curious if statistics from the NoVa open will serve as support or detraction from the notion that Scum has tools available to it that make even Palp worse off and absolutely buries Rebels. Somehow, yes, Crack Swarms still get it done. Which is great in my opinion because they require excellent skill. Trip U-Boats? I'll let you decide. But I'm glad the game kind of rewards good flying (if you're not running a broken list).

For those still saying Palp is just as strong, we've seen him essentially turn into an evade token on defense because Zuckuss/4-LOM neuter everything else - meaning no Palp on offense. And that makes getting through 5+ hull and 4+ shields on 2-3 ships a bit difficult.

Can we please just agree that Scum's niche at the moment is way too close to the reason that people **** themselves crying about Palp Aces? I.e. "Nothing you do will stop me from putting a 13th stress on this Trando to force these 3-4 focused, target locked red dice into your 4 health ships" - which is accompanied by two Torp Boats.

You all can go on about Lothals and Ys but Rebels are in a bad way and now that the green dice matter even less, they continue their downward plunge.

One could argue that the leas green dice matter, the better low agility, high health ships are. The ghost doesnt care about zuckuss. Or 4lom most of the time.

if you go with 5 Obsidians then that's even better for me because you have 5 useless ships instead of 4 useful ones.

This is why I would have no interest in fighting you. You obviously don't understand the power 5 TIEs bring to the board. Crackshot while nice, isn't that nessary. 5 obsidian mini swarm has done enough for me through the years to show me the true strength of this little ships. Just like all the others that down play them, they would just spell your doom. Thus I have no interest in playing someone that can't respect those ships, that in it self shows the level of play I would expect, that being a level I wouldn't deem challenging.

Edit: crackshot is much like Palp. They are crutches. They don't make a player great, they make an average player have a chance against a superior opponent.

I understand perfectly well the power that 5 non-Crackshot 2 attack dice ships bring to the board. Absolutely nothing against Palp Aces.

I used to play a lot of TIE swarm during the fat turret era. Those 5 Obsidians? They'd lose to a Super Dash or Fat Falcon.

If you only had 3 of those left, they'd lose to a Soontir or Poe.

If you had 4 of those left, they'd lose to a 48 point regen Corran.

Against a Predator Gunner Vader RAC you're losing one of those TIEs a turn.

Those TIEs aren't doing anything to x7 Defenders.

I used to play worthless Joustwings too. But I got sick and tired of chasing Poe or Soontir around all game and still losing.

if you go with 5 Obsidians then that's even better for me because you have 5 useless ships instead of 4 useful ones.

This is why I would have no interest in fighting you. You obviously don't understand the power 5 TIEs bring to the board. Crackshot while nice, isn't that nessary. 5 obsidian mini swarm has done enough for me through the years to show me the true strength of this little ships. Just like all the others that down play them, they would just spell your doom. Thus I have no interest in playing someone that can't respect those ships, that in it self shows the level of play I would expect, that being a level I wouldn't deem challenging.

Edit: crackshot is much like Palp. They are crutches. They don't make a player great, they make an average player have a chance against a superior opponent.

I understand perfectly well the power that 5 non-Crackshot 2 attack dice ships bring to the board. Absolutely nothing against Palp Aces.

I used to play a lot of TIE swarm during the fat turret era. Those 5 Obsidians? They'd lose to a Super Dash or Fat Falcon.

If you only had 3 of those left, they'd lose to a Soontir or Poe.

If you had 4 of those left, they'd lose to a 48 point regen Corran.

Against a Predator Gunner Vader RAC you're losing one of those TIEs a turn.

Those TIEs aren't doing anything to x7 Defenders.

I used to play worthless Joustwings too. But I got sick and tired of chasing Poe or Soontir around all game and still losing.

Then you didn't play them well

if you go with 5 Obsidians then that's even better for me because you have 5 useless ships instead of 4 useful ones.

This is why I would have no interest in fighting you. You obviously don't understand the power 5 TIEs bring to the board. Crackshot while nice, isn't that nessary. 5 obsidian mini swarm has done enough for me through the years to show me the true strength of this little ships. Just like all the others that down play them, they would just spell your doom. Thus I have no interest in playing someone that can't respect those ships, that in it self shows the level of play I would expect, that being a level I wouldn't deem challenging.

Edit: crackshot is much like Palp. They are crutches. They don't make a player great, they make an average player have a chance against a superior opponent.

I understand perfectly well the power that 5 non-Crackshot 2 attack dice ships bring to the board. Absolutely nothing against Palp Aces.

I used to play a lot of TIE swarm during the fat turret era. Those 5 Obsidians? They'd lose to a Super Dash or Fat Falcon.

If you only had 3 of those left, they'd lose to a Soontir or Poe.

If you had 4 of those left, they'd lose to a 48 point regen Corran.

Against a Predator Gunner Vader RAC you're losing one of those TIEs a turn.

Those TIEs aren't doing anything to x7 Defenders.

I used to play worthless Joustwings too. But I got sick and tired of chasing Poe or Soontir around all game and still losing.

Then you didn't play them well

If they are still so good why did non-crack swarms disappear over ight with wave 8? Including among top die-hard swarm players?

Swarms are still alright. Crackswarm just performs better against anything rolling 3 eavsion dice. Against a bunch of 1 and 2 evade ships more attacks is better than a few more accurate attacks. Simple right? The reason so few full swarms are seen is because crack shot is cheap enough. "The Swarm" that sees more play right now is a mix of black cracks howlrunner and the classic academy tie (howlrunner, 3 blackcrack, and 3 academy specifically). Reason for the academy ties there is that they block jump masters and 3 ties are probably better than 2 fo's with crack shot. It's really a wonderful little squad with alot more tools in its kit than you would assume with 7 ships. Reason it isn't flown often is simply mental exhaustion. I love my swarm but for multiple games in a day it's just easier on my brain to fly 3 or 4 ships.

if you go with 5 Obsidians then that's even better for me because you have 5 useless ships instead of 4 useful ones.

This is why I would have no interest in fighting you. You obviously don't understand the power 5 TIEs bring to the board. Crackshot while nice, isn't that nessary. 5 obsidian mini swarm has done enough for me through the years to show me the true strength of this little ships. Just like all the others that down play them, they would just spell your doom. Thus I have no interest in playing someone that can't respect those ships, that in it self shows the level of play I would expect, that being a level I wouldn't deem challenging.

Edit: crackshot is much like Palp. They are crutches. They don't make a player great, they make an average player have a chance against a superior opponent.

I understand perfectly well the power that 5 non-Crackshot 2 attack dice ships bring to the board. Absolutely nothing against Palp Aces.

I used to play a lot of TIE swarm during the fat turret era. Those 5 Obsidians? They'd lose to a Super Dash or Fat Falcon.

If you only had 3 of those left, they'd lose to a Soontir or Poe.

If you had 4 of those left, they'd lose to a 48 point regen Corran.

Against a Predator Gunner Vader RAC you're losing one of those TIEs a turn.

Those TIEs aren't doing anything to x7 Defenders.

I used to play worthless Joustwings too. But I got sick and tired of chasing Poe or Soontir around all game and still losing.

Then you didn't play them well

If they are still so good why did non-crack swarms disappear over ight with wave 8? Including among top die-hard swarm players?

They didn't disappear overnight with Wave 8. They've been gone quite a while. They struggled in Wave 4 agains predator and phantoms. Then in Wave 5, Dash sealed their fate along with the way MoV was structures. Crack Shot is the only reason they are still consistently around. Now, we're seeing a seven ship hybrid doing well with three CS and howl.

As a mostly Imperial player, can we as a faction drop the entitlement into a gravity well or something?

The same people crying the same old salty tears.

Seriously, if it makes you so depressed that you can do nothing but whine and moan about the game, see a counsellor and DO SOMETHING ELSE!

That'll improve the game right there.

RoV

The same people crying the same old salty tears.

Seriously, if it makes you so depressed that you can do nothing but whine and moan about the game, see a counsellor and DO SOMETHING ELSE!

That'll improve the game right there.

RoV

I stopped being salty because I'm the one playing Palp Aces now.

The same people crying the same old salty tears.

Seriously, if it makes you so depressed that you can do nothing but whine and moan about the game, see a counsellor and DO SOMETHING ELSE!

That'll improve the game right there.

RoV

I stopped being salty because I'm the one playing Palp Aces now.

Your hypocrisy has already been noted

RoV

Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

I actually really like this. Not entirely certain if it should be free or cost a point or two, but it's got potential. Would help ships like the starviper and protectorate fighter (before it even releases!) against uboats as well. But as a discard, you can't just spam it to use against every attack, so you still have to fly to avoid as many torpedo shots as possible. Does make biggs even harder to kill...

Interesting question is: is Zuckuss more 'way too powerful' than Palpatine ?

You can run a perfectly effective Dengaroo list at 93 points. It gets better if you bump up to 96, but 93 is still plenty viable. That's a clue that it's stupid good; if you can give up seven points without unacceptably compromising a build, its components are too strong.

Palpatine is also too good, and at a minimum needs a range restriction.

But, real talk: at this point it's clear Alex Davy and pals aren't willing to do the necessary balancing via errata, so hey, make Dengaroo, Scouts, and Palp the new baseline for balance going forward.

Exactly. FFG has zero interest in fixing anything. So all the "this is too strong" threads are a waste of time. The things that are too strong are simply the new baseline, anything weaker than that is obsolete, and new stuff needs to be even stronger to compete. The method of competitive balancing that FFG uses forces power creep.

There is no power creep

if you go with 5 Obsidians then that's even better for me because you have 5 useless ships instead of 4 useful ones.

This is why I would have no interest in fighting you. You obviously don't understand the power 5 TIEs bring to the board. Crackshot while nice, isn't that nessary. 5 obsidian mini swarm has done enough for me through the years to show me the true strength of this little ships. Just like all the others that down play them, they would just spell your doom. Thus I have no interest in playing someone that can't respect those ships, that in it self shows the level of play I would expect, that being a level I wouldn't deem challenging.

Edit: crackshot is much like Palp. They are crutches. They don't make a player great, they make an average player have a chance against a superior opponent.

I understand perfectly well the power that 5 non-Crackshot 2 attack dice ships bring to the board. Absolutely nothing against Palp Aces.

I used to play a lot of TIE swarm during the fat turret era. Those 5 Obsidians? They'd lose to a Super Dash or Fat Falcon.

If you only had 3 of those left, they'd lose to a Soontir or Poe.

If you had 4 of those left, they'd lose to a 48 point regen Corran.

Against a Predator Gunner Vader RAC you're losing one of those TIEs a turn.

Those TIEs aren't doing anything to x7 Defenders.

I used to play worthless Joustwings too. But I got sick and tired of chasing Poe or Soontir around all game and still losing.

Then you didn't play them well

If they are still so good why did non-crack swarms disappear over ight with wave 8? Including among top die-hard swarm players?

They didn't disappear overnight with Wave 8. They've been gone quite a while. They struggled in Wave 4 agains predator and phantoms. Then in Wave 5, Dash sealed their fate along with the way MoV was structures. Crack Shot is the only reason they are still consistently around. Now, we're seeing a seven ship hybrid doing well with three CS and howl.

why run 3 CS and not 4 ? 99 points for swarm is pretty useless imo.

Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

I actually really like this. Not entirely certain if it should be free or cost a point or two, but it's got potential. Would help ships like the starviper and protectorate fighter (before it even releases!) against uboats as well. But as a discard, you can't just spam it to use against every attack, so you still have to fly to avoid as many torpedo shots as possible. Does make biggs even harder to kill...

Stupid hard-counters are a no-no for any game design.

if you go with 5 Obsidians then that's even better for me because you have 5 useless ships instead of 4 useful ones.

This is why I would have no interest in fighting you. You obviously don't understand the power 5 TIEs bring to the board. Crackshot while nice, isn't that nessary. 5 obsidian mini swarm has done enough for me through the years to show me the true strength of this little ships. Just like all the others that down play them, they would just spell your doom. Thus I have no interest in playing someone that can't respect those ships, that in it self shows the level of play I would expect, that being a level I wouldn't deem challenging.

Edit: crackshot is much like Palp. They are crutches. They don't make a player great, they make an average player have a chance against a superior opponent.

I understand perfectly well the power that 5 non-Crackshot 2 attack dice ships bring to the board. Absolutely nothing against Palp Aces.

I used to play a lot of TIE swarm during the fat turret era. Those 5 Obsidians? They'd lose to a Super Dash or Fat Falcon.

If you only had 3 of those left, they'd lose to a Soontir or Poe.

If you had 4 of those left, they'd lose to a 48 point regen Corran.

Against a Predator Gunner Vader RAC you're losing one of those TIEs a turn.

Those TIEs aren't doing anything to x7 Defenders.

I used to play worthless Joustwings too. But I got sick and tired of chasing Poe or Soontir around all game and still losing.

Then you didn't play them well

If they are still so good why did non-crack swarms disappear over ight with wave 8? Including among top die-hard swarm players?

They didn't disappear overnight with Wave 8. They've been gone quite a while. They struggled in Wave 4 agains predator and phantoms. Then in Wave 5, Dash sealed their fate along with the way MoV was structures. Crack Shot is the only reason they are still consistently around. Now, we're seeing a seven ship hybrid doing well with three CS and howl.

why run 3 CS and not 4 ? 99 points for swarm is pretty useless imo.

Some lists in the game are better than others, that I think we can all agree on. Competetive players are normally going to take a list that gives them the best chance of winning and thats fair enough. A lot of people who are bemoaning the rise of scum now may be playing palp aces, but they haven't always done so. They may have been rebel regen players in recent waves, and fat han/whisper/swarm players before that. Some of them may even jump over to scum when palp aces becomes a non-top tier build.

I don't have a problem with any of this especially. What I do wonder (and this is never going to be answered objectively) is how far ahear the top tier lists are to the rest of the game. For example if you take a casual/thematic list (say 4 t-60s) against the top tier list from each wave, you are probably going to lose, but how much of a contest would you be able to make it? And secondly, how much of a negative play experience would it be?

x-wing is a brilliant game, both with the mechanics but also the fact that its a universe we love. Personally I would like to see as many of the pilots and ships viable in competetive play as possible. To have 3 lists so far ahead of the meta in a rock paper scissors style would make for a balanced game, but not necessarily an enjoyable one.

I have read a ton of these threads. Maybe all of them. I've never understood them before, but I think I've finally figured it out. It seems like on this forum, everyone thinks that they are top-tier tournament players. That the theory for min/maxing that gives the top 1% the edge over the rest of the top 1% - is how and what everyone plays/should be playing. This is simply not the case.

I have been playing this game since Nov 2012 and have seen a lot happen in it. Skill of play has a much different practical meaning now, than it has at any point prior. I have played games against weak players as well as champions. 2 things become readily apparent with all these reps. 1) Even if you have a championship list, if you are inexperienced, I will eat you with a y-wing solo. As will so, so, so many other experienced players. Nothing beats reps (nothing). 2) It used to be that at a high enough level of play, only the dice actually mattered. The ships really were limited in scope and options, and the best players played pretty much the same list (Swarms somewhat and then Turrets predominantly), in addition to flying well. Now the dice are more able to be mitigated, and that's changed how people build and fly. Put simply, dice matter less now than ever.

Nowadays, there is variety on the top tables, but there is a ton of QQ'ing how we got there. I would be willing to bet 99% (if not all) the QQ'ers haven't even sniffed top four at a big tourney. But, everyone thinks that a championship build -used to eke out the only advantage left to high level players- is what they need to play. The "imbalance" and "OP" that folks complain about is actually a form of self-delusion. If you were amazeballs at this game, the differences wouldn't matter one lick. Since you are not amazeballs at this game, the shortcomings OF YOUR PLAY are being passed off as broken game mechanics or components.

This is not a "get better" or "L2P" post. This is a "know your role" post. Get out there, put some lists together and PLAY. You will see what works FOR YOU and what doesn't. If you are having trouble with whatever list, find three ways you think you can deal with it and TRY IT OUT. Every failure is worth more than every success. Eventually, with enough reps, you'll see that these aren't broken, it's just the gulf between good and good enough is pretty large right now.

tl;dr Experience will show you that there aren't any broken pieces, just bad tactics.

Some lists in the game are better than others, that I think we can all agree on. Competetive players are normally going to take a list that gives them the best chance of winning and thats fair enough. A lot of people who are bemoaning the rise of scum now may be playing palp aces, but they haven't always done so. They may have been rebel regen players in recent waves, and fat han/whisper/swarm players before that. Some of them may even jump over to scum when palp aces becomes a non-top tier build.

I don't have a problem with any of this especially. What I do wonder (and this is never going to be answered objectively) is how far ahear the top tier lists are to the rest of the game. For example if you take a casual/thematic list (say 4 t-60s) against the top tier list from each wave, you are probably going to lose, but how much of a contest would you be able to make it? And secondly, how much of a negative play experience would it be?

x-wing is a brilliant game, both with the mechanics but also the fact that its a universe we love. Personally I would like to see as many of the pilots and ships viable in competetive play as possible. To have 3 lists so far ahead of the meta in a rock paper scissors style would make for a balanced game, but not necessarily an enjoyable one.

That's not to say I don't still stand beside my original thought. The Scum fixes over these last two waves have been too heavy-handed. I don't want to diminish some great points made in this thread but I don't see how people think of these new combinations as balanced - although they may very well be thematic.

Last two points:

- Yes. Palp is probably too powerful. This can be seen by any sort of data manipulation in ListJuggler. But thankfully, you can expect to see the number of competitive pilots flying Palp and Aces to diminish because:

- FFG is doing everything in their power to crush the meta. For better or worse. Imperials are getting some tools that the jury's still out on: a fancy new (and beefy) Palp Shuttle, and the Tie Striker (which seems thematic af). I've been told that Defenders are silently running tables but that must be in groups outside of my local meta (PA/NoVa). Regardless, when an entire faction is built around PtL, arc-dodging, and green dice and you introduce (hard!) counters to each of these things in a matter of one and a half waves, you're bound to disenfranchise a lot of people - be it because their faction just got roasted or because, like me, people don't appreciate that level of heavy-handedness.

As someone said above, hard-counters are horrible. But are 50 soft-counters any better?

Disclaimer for everyone speculating: I played exclusively Imperial for the first half of my X-Wing experience. Then Scum got real good so I made a double-Trando list that I couldn't lose with. I became disgruntled and now play exclusively Revel. IDK either okay... Just trying to find the magic that I know FFG put into every faction.

Anyway... Fly Casual. Fly Better.

Sorry for the grammar/spelling errors. Didn't proof read.

50 soft counters are better because they're useable v other things in the game

The illicits in the caster are both very flexible

But Illicits only work for Scum. Sure, you'll get to put them on Rebel Larges eventually. But that solves nothing when it comes to Rebel small base ships.

We need a hard or soft counter that can be used by ANY size ship. Doesn't need to be 100% effective. Hell it shouldn't be. But I'm tired of the current Palp vs U-boat vs Ghost meta. It's dull and sh***ty. Break the log jam FFG!

FFG broke the log jam. Dаmned defenders are too good to ignore.

And some good squint-counters are about to hit the shelves, along with SOMETHING FFG hasn't yet revealed from the Heroes of the rebellion

Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

I actually really like this. Not entirely certain if it should be free or cost a point or two, but it's got potential. Would help ships like the starviper and protectorate fighter (before it even releases!) against uboats as well. But as a discard, you can't just spam it to use against every attack, so you still have to fly to avoid as many torpedo shots as possible. Does make biggs even harder to kill...

Stupid hard-counters are a no-no for any game design.

Its not even a hard counter. It stops the uboat from modifying dice on ONE torpedo. A triple uboat list will have 4-5 more after that. A double uboat list with a party bus will have 3 more torpedoes plus the party bus smashing your face. And it dosnt do anything to stop a natural roll of all hits/crits.