Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

I actually really like this. Not entirely certain if it should be free or cost a point or two, but it's got potential. Would help ships like the starviper and protectorate fighter (before it even releases!) against uboats as well. But as a discard, you can't just spam it to use against every attack, so you still have to fly to avoid as many torpedo shots as possible. Does make biggs even harder to kill...

Stupid hard-counters are a no-no for any game design.

Its not even a hard counter. It stops the uboat from modifying dice on ONE torpedo. A triple uboat list will have 4-5 more after that. A double uboat list with a party bus will have 3 more torpedoes plus the party bus smashing your face. And it dosnt do anything to stop a natural roll of all hits/crits.

I was quite surprised by the virulent reaction to that upgrade, and it being called a hard counter.

As you said, it is an upgrade that even in the scenario you want to use it for, it could as well do nothing for you if the attacker is lucky with his roll.

That, and that is a single use upgrade, is why I considered it to be priced at 0. Perhaps it should cost 1 or 2 points. But don't we agree that all Rebel ships seem to be about 1-2 points overcosted?

At least, the defender may then choose not to expend it if he sees that the dice are good anyway, and save it for a later attack.

And what it soft-counters is precisely the "perfect storm" (as Alex Davy called it) of ultramodified 4 dice attacks. It doesn't counter ordnance as a whole. It just prevents the attacker from getting a guaranteed 100% effective Alpha strike with all his ships, giving another chance to the defenders to get close and actually do something.

Zero points for using up a slot and it doesn't stop it completely just stops modifying

Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

I actually really like this. Not entirely certain if it should be free or cost a point or two, but it's got potential. Would help ships like the starviper and protectorate fighter (before it even releases!) against uboats as well. But as a discard, you can't just spam it to use against every attack, so you still have to fly to avoid as many torpedo shots as possible. Does make biggs even harder to kill...

Stupid hard-counters are a no-no for any game design.

Its not even a hard counter. It stops the uboat from modifying dice on ONE torpedo. A triple uboat list will have 4-5 more after that. A double uboat list with a party bus will have 3 more torpedoes plus the party bus smashing your face. And it dosnt do anything to stop a natural roll of all hits/crits.

I was quite surprised by the virulent reaction to that upgrade, and it being called a hard counter.

As you said, it is an upgrade that even in the scenario you want to use it for, it could as well do nothing for you if the attacker is lucky with his roll.

That, and that is a single use upgrade, is why I considered it to be priced at 0. Perhaps it should cost 1 or 2 points. But don't we agree that all Rebel ships seem to be about 1-2 points overcosted?

At least, the defender may then choose not to expend it if he sees that the dice are good anyway, and save it for a later attack.

And what it soft-counters is precisely the "perfect storm" (as Alex Davy called it) of ultramodified 4 dice attacks. It doesn't counter ordnance as a whole. It just prevents the attacker from getting a guaranteed 100% effective Alpha strike with all his ships, giving another chance to the defenders to get close and actually do something.

I can't believe that rebel players are getting a box set that comes with Poe and Han. Baby's first X-Wing expansion.

Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

I actually really like this. Not entirely certain if it should be free or cost a point or two, but it's got potential. Would help ships like the starviper and protectorate fighter (before it even releases!) against uboats as well. But as a discard, you can't just spam it to use against every attack, so you still have to fly to avoid as many torpedo shots as possible. Does make biggs even harder to kill...

Stupid hard-counters are a no-no for any game design.

Its not even a hard counter. It stops the uboat from modifying dice on ONE torpedo. A triple uboat list will have 4-5 more after that. A double uboat list with a party bus will have 3 more torpedoes plus the party bus smashing your face. And it dosnt do anything to stop a natural roll of all hits/crits.

POW and a torp is suddenly 2\2 statistically.

That's exactly what I call "hard-counter" because a torp is limited in amount of times fired and situations it can be fired. Make the alpha strike a fail and Uboats fail. Period. And it's 146% useless agains other matchups, and as such it is a "dumb" hard counter. A "buy this to counter that one list"

Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

I actually really like this. Not entirely certain if it should be free or cost a point or two, but it's got potential. Would help ships like the starviper and protectorate fighter (before it even releases!) against uboats as well. But as a discard, you can't just spam it to use against every attack, so you still have to fly to avoid as many torpedo shots as possible. Does make biggs even harder to kill...

Stupid hard-counters are a no-no for any game design.

Its not even a hard counter. It stops the uboat from modifying dice on ONE torpedo. A triple uboat list will have 4-5 more after that. A double uboat list with a party bus will have 3 more torpedoes plus the party bus smashing your face. And it dosnt do anything to stop a natural roll of all hits/crits.

I was quite surprised by the virulent reaction to that upgrade, and it being called a hard counter.

As you said, it is an upgrade that even in the scenario you want to use it for, it could as well do nothing for you if the attacker is lucky with his roll.

That, and that is a single use upgrade, is why I considered it to be priced at 0. Perhaps it should cost 1 or 2 points. But don't we agree that all Rebel ships seem to be about 1-2 points overcosted?

At least, the defender may then choose not to expend it if he sees that the dice are good anyway, and save it for a later attack.

And what it soft-counters is precisely the "perfect storm" (as Alex Davy called it) of ultramodified 4 dice attacks. It doesn't counter ordnance as a whole. It just prevents the attacker from getting a guaranteed 100% effective Alpha strike with all his ships, giving another chance to the defenders to get close and actually do something.

Rebel players deserve to not have any viable lists though. Go get 10 shields out of a 4 point upgrade someplace else, game is MUCH better when every game doesn't have a 30 minute chase after some stupid regen ship.

I can't believe that rebel players are getting a box set that comes with Poe and Han. Baby's first X-Wing expansion.

If you are incompetent enough to let R2D2 regen 10 shields, you have no right to complain kiddo.

Once again, your cries just reflect your own problems, not that of the game.

RoV

Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

I actually really like this. Not entirely certain if it should be free or cost a point or two, but it's got potential. Would help ships like the starviper and protectorate fighter (before it even releases!) against uboats as well. But as a discard, you can't just spam it to use against every attack, so you still have to fly to avoid as many torpedo shots as possible. Does make biggs even harder to kill...

Stupid hard-counters are a no-no for any game design.

Its not even a hard counter. It stops the uboat from modifying dice on ONE torpedo. A triple uboat list will have 4-5 more after that. A double uboat list with a party bus will have 3 more torpedoes plus the party bus smashing your face. And it dosnt do anything to stop a natural roll of all hits/crits.

POW and a torp is suddenly 2\2 statistically.

That's exactly what I call "hard-counter" because a torp is limited in amount of times fired and situations it can be fired. Make the alpha strike a fail and Uboats fail. Period. And it's 146% useless agains other matchups, and as such it is a "dumb" hard counter. A "buy this to counter that one list"

I don't understand why the namecalling.

• It is a debuff to the triple Uboat list? Yes!
• Is it a global debuff to that list? No. It only loses effectiveness against a squadron that comes equipped with Chaff. This will be usually limited to: most Rebel ships, Starvipers, TIE Bombers, TIE Punishers, Firesprays... Neither of these ships are currently shaking the meta.
• Is it a hardcounter? No. It doesn't prevent you from using your 4 point torpedo upgrades for dealing damage. It is still a 4 dice attack. It only prevents it to be buffed to 4 hits/crits once . Uboats usually have a second torpedo ready that won't be affected by Chaff.
• Isn't it established that Rebels need something to survive heavy alphastrikes? Yes. Rebels have been managing to survive the alphastrike so far with Biggs. But that basically shoehorns Biggs into every rebel build. It shouldn't be bad for the game to allow some variety in rebel builds, so that not all of them need to include Biggs.
• Does it render Triple Uboat useless? No. They will be as effective as they already are against all other ships that don't have Chaff. And against those that have, their damage output will decrease by 2 hits/crits per game. Against a B-Wing equipping Chaff, a Uboat will deal 6 hits/crits instead of 8. That will allow the B-Wing to do something before being killed by the Jumpmaster's turret. It is at least less of a NPE than being blown up without a chance to even roll attack dice.

It's not the end of the world, precisely. It indeed is much softer than the alternate proposals about removing the elite talent from scouts, or making scouts unique. That would indeed kill Uboats and so be a hardcounter. This is not.

Remember the Alex Davy's recent comments saying that the current Uboat situation starts reminding him a lot to the TIE Phantom situation. Fear a hardcounter from Davy like the one the TIE Phantom got, and not this mild Chaff.

If you are concerned about its limited use to just counter ordnance... Well. That is what Chaff is for. To counter ordnance. That is why it should cost 0. Because it doesn't nothing for you unless you face some ordnance heavy rival, (and in that case it can still do nothing for you if their dice are on fire). Exactly the same as, let's say, Tractor Beam would do for you against a double decimator list.

If you want, we could drop the torpedo and missile restriction and allow it to be used for all kind of attacks, perhaps making it limited, small ship only...

• Does it render Triple Uboat useless? No. They will be as effective as they already are against all other ships that don't have Chaff. And against those that have, their damage output will decrease by 2 hits/crits per game. Against a B-Wing equipping Chaff, a Uboat will deal 6 hits/crits instead of 8. That will allow the B-Wing to do something before being killed by the Jumpmaster's turret. It is at least less of a NPE than being blown up without a chance to even roll attack dice.

And that's only the EXPECTED damage. It's always possible you'll roll 4 hits/crits naturally regardless of the chaff.

• Isn't it established that Rebels need something to survive heavy alphastrikes? Yes. Rebels have been managing to survive the alphastrike so far with Biggs. But that basically shoehorns Biggs into every rebel build. It shouldn't be bad for the game to allow some variety in rebel builds, so that not all of them need to include Biggs.

The trouble with this logic is that what happens isn't that you give Rebels a bunch of viable non-Biggles options. What happens is that you make Biggles harder to kill without expanding the meta space of Rebels much at all, and the harder Biggles is to kill, the more difficult it is to give Rebels nice things, because Biggles exists to stop those nice things dying until it's too late to do anything about them.

Palpaces were there since before Wave 7, only that Rebels were keeping them under control (literally, with stress). Only after the torpedo scouts have pushed Rebels out of the tables is when Palpaces have thrived without predators.

Just give Rebels this in the new Partisan X-Wing expansion pack.

Or weren't you wondering why all Rebel ships were getting torpedo slots that they never got to use?

I actually really like this. Not entirely certain if it should be free or cost a point or two, but it's got potential. Would help ships like the starviper and protectorate fighter (before it even releases!) against uboats as well. But as a discard, you can't just spam it to use against every attack, so you still have to fly to avoid as many torpedo shots as possible. Does make biggs even harder to kill...

Stupid hard-counters are a no-no for any game design.

Its not even a hard counter. It stops the uboat from modifying dice on ONE torpedo. A triple uboat list will have 4-5 more after that. A double uboat list with a party bus will have 3 more torpedoes plus the party bus smashing your face. And it dosnt do anything to stop a natural roll of all hits/crits.

POW and a torp is suddenly 2\2 statistically.

That's exactly what I call "hard-counter" because a torp is limited in amount of times fired and situations it can be fired. Make the alpha strike a fail and Uboats fail. Period. And it's 146% useless agains other matchups, and as such it is a "dumb" hard counter. A "buy this to counter that one list"

I don't understand why the namecalling.

• It is a debuff to the triple Uboat list? Yes!
• Is it a global debuff to that list? No. It only loses effectiveness against a squadron that comes equipped with Chaff. This will be usually limited to: most Rebel ships, Starvipers, TIE Bombers, TIE Punishers, Firesprays... Neither of these ships are currently shaking the meta.
• Is it a hardcounter? No. It doesn't prevent you from using your 4 point torpedo upgrades for dealing damage. It is still a 4 dice attack. It only prevents it to be buffed to 4 hits/crits once . Uboats usually have a second torpedo ready that won't be affected by Chaff.
• Isn't it established that Rebels need something to survive heavy alphastrikes? Yes. Rebels have been managing to survive the alphastrike so far with Biggs. But that basically shoehorns Biggs into every rebel build. It shouldn't be bad for the game to allow some variety in rebel builds, so that not all of them need to include Biggs.
• Does it render Triple Uboat useless? No. They will be as effective as they already are against all other ships that don't have Chaff. And against those that have, their damage output will decrease by 2 hits/crits per game. Against a B-Wing equipping Chaff, a Uboat will deal 6 hits/crits instead of 8. That will allow the B-Wing to do something before being killed by the Jumpmaster's turret. It is at least less of a NPE than being blown up without a chance to even roll attack dice.

It's not the end of the world, precisely. It indeed is much softer than the alternate proposals about removing the elite talent from scouts, or making scouts unique. That would indeed kill Uboats and so be a hardcounter. This is not.

Remember the Alex Davy's recent comments saying that the current Uboat situation starts reminding him a lot to the TIE Phantom situation. Fear a hardcounter from Davy like the one the TIE Phantom got, and not this mild Chaff.

If you are concerned about its limited use to just counter ordnance... Well. That is what Chaff is for. To counter ordnance. That is why it should cost 0. Because it doesn't nothing for you unless you face some ordnance heavy rival, (and in that case it can still do nothing for you if their dice are on fire). Exactly the same as, let's say, Tractor Beam would do for you against a double decimator list.

If you want, we could drop the torpedo and missile restriction and allow it to be used for all kind of attacks, perhaps making it limited, small ship only...

1. it is a debuff to ordnance.

2. it is nothing when not facing ordnance

3. it makes ordnance complete garbage (again) when taken

4. making a torpedo a simple unmodded 4 dice attack is a ahrdcounter. a DEFINITION of hardcounter.

5. every damage point counts when you're so limited on number of shots and opportunity of shooting. it's not Whipster, you're not having 12 turns of constant 4-5 shots.

6. nope, rebels should be vulnerable to alpha strikes. except they aren't as much with Wes and Biggz flying around. or zooming PWTs that return.

7. Uboats are good against anything not palp aces. Suddenly they're not good against everything but palp aces, because every Y-wing is chaffed, every every E is chaffed K-wings already scream of excitement because you know, TORPEDO SLOTS.

Firespray isn't fixed by that, it was underpowered before Uboats and will stay that way.

Ordnance was garbage and some wild heads want it to stay that way because it makes their regenning toys go POOF.

dumb_hardcounter_to_single_list .

the chaff upgrade is pretty bad design

you don't want upgrades that are so specific in their application that they're utterly worthless outside their one intended use. that's just lazy

all you're doing is introducing an auto-include upgrade for everything that has torp slots and doesn't use them, and sort of just throwing up your hands regarding ordnance

a far more elegant solution would be a way to remove focus from the attacker, which not only curbs the dominant ordnance list but is actually useful in other scenarios

see also Black One in none-deadeye cases

the chaff upgrade is pretty bad design

you don't want upgrades that are so specific in their application that they're utterly worthless outside their one intended use. that's just lazy

all you're doing is introducing an auto-include upgrade for everything that has torp slots and doesn't use them, and sort of just throwing up your hands regarding ordnance

a far more elegant solution would be a way to remove focus from the attacker, which not only curbs the dominant ordnance list but is actually useful in other scenarios

see also Black One in none-deadeye cases

This is why you make Palpatine epic only, but drop the huge ship only restriction from Tarkin in exchange.

the chaff upgrade is pretty bad design

you don't want upgrades that are so specific in their application that they're utterly worthless outside their one intended use. that's just lazy

all you're doing is introducing an auto-include upgrade for everything that has torp slots and doesn't use them, and sort of just throwing up your hands regarding ordnance

a far more elegant solution would be a way to remove focus from the attacker, which not only curbs the dominant ordnance list but is actually useful in other scenarios

see also Black One in none-deadeye cases

This is why you make Palpatine epic only, but drop the huge ship only restriction from Tarkin in exchange.

the chaff upgrade is pretty bad design

you don't want upgrades that are so specific in their application that they're utterly worthless outside their one intended use. that's just lazy

all you're doing is introducing an auto-include upgrade for everything that has torp slots and doesn't use them, and sort of just throwing up your hands regarding ordnance

a far more elegant solution would be a way to remove focus from the attacker, which not only curbs the dominant ordnance list but is actually useful in other scenarios

see also Black One in none-deadeye cases

This is why you make Palpatine epic only, but drop the huge ship only restriction from Tarkin in exchange.

But that's never going to happen.

I haven't gotten a response in the mail yet. Maybe. It's a great idea that would drastically improve the state of the game and would be easy to implement.

This stupid chaff upgrade isn't happening either.

Must be rough when you realize that the list YOU fly ,ONLY you.. meets something which can beat it..... Must be rough..

Waiting for official word still but...

No that it fully supports my argument, but at the NoVa Open (100+ participants):

The final 8 did not include Emperor Palpatine (right?).

The final 4 did not include any Imperial lists.

The winner was running a VCX-100 and Biggs, beating out Dengaroo.

I'm not saying this is the tell-all, but Palp ain't what he used to be. When wave IX is realized and wave X comes out, I'll go out on a limb to say that one epic point may be over-costed. Again, my prediction is we'll be seeing people ****ing and moaning about something besides Palp/Aces for awhile (my money is on Scumgaroo-Control lists).

Must be rough when you realize that the list YOU fly ,ONLY you.. meets something which can beat it..... Must be rough..

What? I don't get it. Unless that's sarcasm...

How many worlds have Palp Aces won? Tell me again how people are just now "realizing" that it's beatable?

Yes, they win (won) tournaments. Yes, they win (won) Regionals and Opens. This is a "turning of the tide" thread, not a "oh, I play only Imps so I'm gonna cry now" thread - sorry you missed it.

If you are incompetent enough to let R2D2 regen 10 shields, you have no right to complain kiddo.

Once again, your cries just reflect your own problems, not that of the game.

RoV

Well, I had a game where Party bus with zuckuss dengar and 4-lom was chacing Horn in lategame.

8 rounds of R1-2 shots in a row, with 2 re-rolls no tokenstacks and re-rolls of evades.

8. rounds.

Dragged long enough for him to claim victory because horn is more expensive than half of partybus.

Since Scum became competative faction in Wave 8 I have seen people complaining about Scum getting out of hands, but if you really look into the tournament stats it really is different story.

I am really glad that my chosen faction is giving some Bang for my Buck at the moment!!!

... And Im happily waiting the next article that annouce Scum huge ship and finally the fixes for few ships that been around for awhile and maybe we get closer to be even with Pilots.

Since Scum became competative faction in Wave 8 I have seen people complaining about Scum getting out of hands, but if you really look into the tournament stats it really is different story.

I am really glad that my chosen faction is giving some Bang for my Buck at the moment!!!

... And Im happily waiting the next article that annouce Scum huge ship and finally the fixes for few ships that been around for awhile and maybe we get closer to be even with Pilots.

FFG has been pretty good about keeping each faction's niche intact.

You see, trained pilots and superior technology/resources creates assets like Soontir and Omega Leader. Scum cannot have these nice things because they'd rather kill their own for a buck than learn from them. The trade off is your gadgets and crew are unsurpassed. It's not about who you are, it's who you hire.

Well, we've come to a juncture where these mercenaries and black market shenanigans have drawn a cautious pause from the ranks of Whisper and the Inquisitor. Many dare not venture from Imperial guarded sectors without a TIE Defender

I'm tired of scum and defenders already.

Good job, everyone. You begged and begged and your overlords obliged.

Scum: The new uber-dominate faction that pushes damage through (Zuckuss, Slicer Tools, Feedback Array, and 4-LOM) and doesn't give a **** about your 3-dice primary because the ships that run with these crew have more hull/shields than your whole Imperial list combined. Want to PS-9 arc dodge? Ha. See those 180°/360° arcs? See that firing arc that MOVES?

Whisper. Nerfed, softly. Dies to Zuckuss and stress.

Fel, Inquisitor. Dies to Zuckuss, Slicer Tools and stress.

I'd go on but my plane is about to take off.

Tell me I'm wrong while I'm in the air.

No, Palp Aces is the new Palp Aces. Especially with Defenders.

All of this hyper offensive scum stuff has become necessary in order to actual get damage through.

I gave my opponent my Advanced Proton Torpedo Dengaroo variant. I was stupid enough to park Vessery at range 1 of Dengar, so he fired off a 5 hit APT at me. I rolled blank blank focus evade, and after Zuckuss ended up rolling the same thing.

A SINGLE ******* DAMAGE from a 5 hit attack. That's how ridiculous damage mitigation has gotten. Palp Aces ships are invincible and you need this level of firepower to ever hit anything. You can shrug off 4 hit U-Boat torps even easier.

A bunch of greedy Imperial players who are mad that something can actually hit Soontir for once. And a bunch of no-skill rebel players angry that they can't play Poe Han or Super Dash or something else obnoxious and dominate. I honestly don't know which group I hate more.

So a Defender with a focus token, evade token, Stealth Device and Palp (I'm assuming) was able to absorb a 5-hit attack, but still took damage that knocked out his Stealth Device and still forced him to burn Palp and all defensive tokens?

Not seeing the problem here.

The fundamental issue being that basically anything else would have taken 3 or more hits, and it had to be 5 hits to get anything to land at all. Any less and it would have been laughed off.

A lot of the times I don't respond to posts like PhantomFO's because I'm dumbfounded by a post's brazen stupidity.

Then I realize that people were this aggressively wrong and obnoxious about the pre-nerf Phantom and Turretwing and that there is no arguing with these people.

A full modded APT shot should do more than plink the stealth device and strip tokens off of a ship.

Since Scum became competative faction in Wave 8 I have seen people complaining about Scum getting out of hands, but if you really look into the tournament stats it really is different story.

I am really glad that my chosen faction is giving some Bang for my Buck at the moment!!!

... And Im happily waiting the next article that annouce Scum huge ship and finally the fixes for few ships that been around for awhile and maybe we get closer to be even with Pilots.

FFG has been pretty good about NOT keeping each faction's niche intact.

You see, trained pilots and superior technology/resources creates assets like Soontir and Omega Leader. Scum cannot have these nice things because they'd rather kill their own for a buck than learn from them. The trade off is your gadgets and crew are unsurpassed. It's not about who you are, it's who you hire.

Well, we've come to a juncture where these mercenaries and black market shenanigans have drawn a cautious pause from the ranks of Whisper and the Inquisitor. Many dare not venture from Imperial guarded sectors without a TIE Defender

I'm tired of scum and defenders already.

I am afraid for third strings like Poe New Republic technology and training is enough. That guy gets even impressed from something as bad as a simple TIE/SF, poor pilots who are forced into X-Wings.

Haha, good one Warpman...

I have to say, though, that this is not one of the novels you've read and Horn and Poe are not great assets and the Empire/First Order makes short work of those two on a regular basis.

I think the common enemy now is anything flying a Jumpmaster 5000 (a freighter, mind you...) or YV-666.

It's true. I don't mind Palp Aces, even with the shear evil that is Soontir. It's the never getting a chance to survive the first volley of torpedoes from a freakin' freighter that bugs me.

I've got too many hours in the cardboard cockpits of everything from SPAD VIIs to F-35s to be able to accept a cargo carrier having better firepower and maneuverability than a frontline fighter.

Agreed. Thematic sins aside, it's a negative play experience to me, when my ships melt in the first round of combat.