Flagellant (Core Rulebook pg 116)

You have dedicated your pain to the service of the Emperor. Each day you must spend twenty minutes praying and inflicting 1 point of Damage upon yourself. You may not treat this Damage or allow it to be healed . Once you have castigated your flesh, you gain a +10 bonus to Willpower Tests made to resist mind control or Malignancy. Additionally, if you have the Frenzy talent, you may enter a frenzied state as a Free Action. Should you fail to flagellate yourself on any given day , you take a -5 penalty to all Tests due to shame and guilt.

As you can see, I have highlighted two phrases in the wording of Flagellant. Anything I didn't highlight I feel is very straight forward and intuitive, but I have several questions about the highlighted parts.

Starting with the red, must a character flagellate themselves in the morning, or would you simply require that they stick to a schedule? What if they flagellate themselves in the morning one day and in the evening the next?

As far as I can tell, damage from flagellation must be subject to natural healing (ie. I Wound/day when lightly wounded (TB Wounds/day with bed rest when lightly wounded)), because otherwise the character would quickly work themselves into Crits and die. Also, it is of course obvious that you can't hea l this specific D amage with any medical skill/psychic power (heresy!).

My questions come in when you have one or mare damage from flagellation, along with one or more damage from other sources. How do you handle medical skills in these cases? How I would want to handle it (assuming the person administering the aid respects the flagellant's wishes), is to simply have such healing only apply to wounds not caused by flagellation (ie. if you have 2 wounds from flagellation and 5 from an autopistol, a Medicae Skill Test would simply cap out at healing 5 of your wounds).

What about natural healing with mixed wounds? Is the healing applied to the wounds from flagellation first? Last? Is it divided evenly between flagellation wounds and other wounds? Is it allocated randomly? I prefer either even division or random allocation.

I know there isn't necessarily a RAW answer to anything I have asked. If you do have a RAW explanation to give, please cite specific books and page numbers. If there is not a RAW answer to a question, I would like to know how you would rule on it.

Thanks!

I'd say historically most flagellation is ritualistic, and performed with prayer, as such it should be performed when a character would be doing their daily prayers whenever that is.

Mechanically I'd say once per 24 hour period to maintain bonus.

I'd say you're correct on the healing. You can't let a doctor treat it, but your body will fix itself regardless of your wishes.

I would say that the damage from flagellation is healed in that case and the bonus is lost, as your mindset is changed, and you must therefore flagellate again (probably much to the chagrin of your medical professionals).

You can't really force the wounds of flagellation to exist and persist, it's wounding. Maybe if the Medicae test was made with a difficulty modifier they could avoid treating you fully? But I'd risk some insanity on their part because they are denying their oath of treating the faithful's injuries, regardless of them wanting the injury. And you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that has a medical background willing to let wounds sit, even in the Ministorum probably they'd respect that you flagellate but they'd want another body for the fight over you feeling good about yourself. The God Emperor forgiving you afterwards.

Again I wouldn't separate the flagellation wounds at all, it's more of a personal tracker of (this particular wound can't be treated or I lose the bonus)

As for natural healing, your body generally fixes the first thing wrong with it, unless something more pressing happens to it first. So if you are only lightly wounded then the first thing that happened heals first, but if you are more heavily wounded that gets worked on then the lighter stuff.

I'd say historically most flagellation is ritualistic, and performed with prayer, as such it should be performed when a character would be doing their daily prayers whenever that is.

Mechanically I'd say once per 24 hour period to maintain bonus.

I'd say you're correct on the healing. You can't let a doctor treat it, but your body will fix itself regardless of your wishes.

I would say that the damage from flagellation is healed in that case and the bonus is lost, as your mindset is changed, and you must therefore flagellate again (probably much to the chagrin of your medical professionals).

You can't really force the wounds of flagellation to exist and persist, it's wounding. Maybe if the Medicae test was made with a difficulty modifier they could avoid treating you fully? But I'd risk some insanity on their part because they are denying their oath of treating the faithful's injuries, regardless of them wanting the injury. And you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that has a medical background willing to let wounds sit, even in the Ministorum probably they'd respect that you flagellate but they'd want another body for the fight over you feeling good about yourself. The God Emperor forgiving you afterwards.

Again I wouldn't separate the flagellation wounds at all, it's more of a personal tracker of (this particular wound can't be treated or I lose the bonus)

As for natural healing, your body generally fixes the first thing wrong with it, unless something more pressing happens to it first. So if you are only lightly wounded then the first thing that happened heals first, but if you are more heavily wounded that gets worked on then the lighter stuff.

If I have a bullet wound in my arm, and wounds from flagellation across my back, you're saying it would be impossible to treat the gunshot wound without treating the flagellation wounds? This is the grimdark, why would a medic care if the crazy Sister doesn't want her bleeding back treated? I really don't see the issue here. Especially if the medic is a PC, and the player agrees to leave the flagellation wounds alone.

Even doctors today (in the vast, vast majority of cases) cannot force treatment upon an unwilling individual, and (I don't think) you see them going insane over it (i'm sure some lose sleep over it but that's different from gaining "Insanity Points" as far as I'm concerned).

I also don't see why the presence of flagellation wounds (that you are ignoring) would make other treatment more difficult than treating those other wounds and the flagellation wounds.

Thanks for the response! I apologize for laying into you so much, but I really don't understand your argument.

I also don't see why the presence of flagellation wounds (that you are ignoring) would make other treatment more difficult than treating those other wounds and the flagellation wounds.

It's optional set of rules from Inquisitor's Handbook "Expanded Skills" chapter.

Medicae rules in all game lines are... not very good designed and not very good formulated.

Common houserule is to track any source of injury separately and add Medicae skill to every individual source separately. So you can treat all wounds (small "w") except from flagellation.

Dark heresy doesn't separate wounds like that for the mechanical benefits.

So mechanically yes, but even then you'd be getting pain relief, which is essentially what wound removal represents. The treating of pain and patching up of wounds. Why would a medic care about a bleeding sister? Because she's the Daughter of the Emperor and they don't want to piss off Daddy?

The issue is that mechanically a bullet wound is not different than a stab wound in the game.

Narratively is a whole nother issue, but it's just a thing to bring up.

Today we also don't see people burting apart violent with warp gates spewing from their heads. It's the Grim Darkness of the future, and if you've only ever been told to fix someone because they are keeping the darkness at bay a little longer, then you fix them to the best of your ability.

Because Medicae is a general treat all skill.

Forgot about the Expanded Skills section (haven't looked at DH1 in a while.) I guess it depends on the type of damage the flagelation is as well and the other damage you recieve because under that you can only get healed once per day for each type of damage you take. Not the severity of the damage per say, but that affects it as well.

As I understand it if you take the same kind of damage a flagelation causes and get that treated, it all gets treated. Under this optional rule.

Well, I suppose RAW you know better than I, but this is still something that is thematically very important to me, so it would be something I would ask the GM very nicely about . . .

Because the alternative is to refuse treatment altogether, and shoot (maybe) anyone who tried to administer medical care.

I know I could just take the -5 penalty and get healed, but it just feels wrong to me.

I don't get what the problem is about just flagellating yourself again at the soonest point. It's 20 minutes, and you'll be out a bonus for maybe a fight or two, depending on the situation and when you get a moment.

I get that thematically it's important, but hows a scene where your sister is disappointed that she was healed properly and must mess with that work for her faith any worse than say denying the healing and possibly dying for the sake of pain and your faith? I mean it'd even lead to a hopefully decent discussion with whoever is patching you up.

I wouldn't say you take the -5, you didn't fail to flagelate yourself, your flagellation was healed. You'd just lose the boon, but you wouldn't take the pen.

The bigger problem for that is if you end up in a situation that requires long term care. Then you'd start getting the penalty.

Well, you can try to use this (from DW Errata): "The First Aid use of the Medicae Skill can be used to treat any number of untreated injuries with a single Medicae Test." - this can be interpreted as you can treat not all of untreated injuries with Medicae.

The thing is, she can't willingly let someone heal her if they may also heal the flagelation wounds. It would be bad role playing (imp), and the Flagelant talent explicitly forbids you from having such would willingly healed.

So if a GM ruled that the medic could not just heal the non-flagelation wounds, yes I would absolutely refuse treatment, on both RP and rules.

And with long term care, well if it not willing I suppose it can happen, but the Sister is going to be to be royaly pissed at whatever doctor went against her wishes (whether or not the GM really gave said doctor a choice).

Had a thought: maybe a Flagelant would allow wounds to be treated until they are out of crits (as you said, they aren't very useful to the emperor if they are dead), but after that would rely on natural healing.

Mechanicly the GM is bound to the rules they include, and in DH1 there's no difference from 1 wound or the other, so unless they include the optional rule in IH AND you haven't taken any other Rending damage (or whatever depending on the Flagellation style) it's still gonna get healed.

Because you can't hold back on how receptive a patient's body is to relief either on the Medicae check, nor can you judge how well you're going to do per say.

But we also have to realize that in 40K patients likely have little to zero rights when under the care of a doctor. Refusing treatment may even be received as a form of insubordination or heresy at worst because you are actively refusing to be made whole again and getting back to the emperor's work, prayer or no.

As for crits, again you can't decide how much healing you get or when it stops for the most part. It's how well your body takes it, and how skilled the person is.

Mechanicly the GM is bound to the rules they include, and in DH1 there's no difference from 1 wound or the other, so unless they include the optional rule in IH AND you haven't taken any other Rending damage (or whatever depending on the Flagellation style) it's still gonna get healed.

Because you can't hold back on how receptive a patient's body is to relief either on the Medicae check, nor can you judge how well you're going to do per say.

But we also have to realize that in 40K patients likely have little to zero rights when under the care of a doctor. Refusing treatment may even be received as a form of insubordination or heresy at worst because you are actively refusing to be made whole again and getting back to the emperor's work, prayer or no.

As for crits, again you can't decide how much healing you get or when it stops for the most part. It's how well your body takes it, and how skilled the person is.

I should point out at this point that this will not be an issue for our campaign, since Estelia has no intention of taking the Flagelant talent, and Inellia can do her own thing "off screen."

Personally, I'd say RAW makes a special case here:

"You may not treat this Damage or allow it to be healed."

This line would make it impossible for a Flagellant to treat any other injuries they may have incurred. Gunshot to the leg? Too bad, can't patch it up, you might accidentally heal your scarred back.

I really don't believe it's supposed to work this way. If it were, the book should say something about not treating any Damage, but that would be just as crazy.

In terms of roleplaying, on the other hand, I don't see much of a problem either way. Just because Wounds were healed doesn't mean the character would immediately return to their old, perfect self. This is 40k, not Star Trek -- doctors don't run around with tissue regenerators and hyposprays that fix a broken bone in seconds, but rather chainsaw-scalpels and crude transfusions that make you think you're stuck in a WW1 field hospital. Even after treatment has finished, there will still be scarring, and there will be pain. As such, even if a Flagellant should strongly refuse treatment, I'd say it's nothing that actually threatens the sanctity of her soul if it still happens.

True, you lose the mechanical benefit from having Flagellated, but I'd see this more as OOC balancing since this is about trading in hitpoints.

But we also have to realize that in 40K patients likely have little to zero rights when under the care of a doctor.

That probably depends on who the patient is, and who is treating them.

On a sidenote, this thread reminds me of another common issue in Dark Heresy: stacking locations damage.

If I recall correctly, RAW only tracks Critical Damage as a single value independent of body locations, meaning that you may end up having crazy situations like your (previously uninjured) head exploding from a single punch just because you've racked up a few Crits in your legs and body locations.

A lot of groups have house-ruled this, with many more intuitively tracking Crits per individual body part just because this is more realistic and people never noticed this isn't what the book says. How are we going to do this in our game?

On a sidenote, this thread reminds me of another common issue in Dark Heresy: stacking locations damage.

If I recall correctly, RAW only tracks Critical Damage as a single value independent of body locations, meaning that you may end up having crazy situations like your (previously uninjured) head exploding from a single punch just because you've racked up a few Crits in your legs and body locations.

A lot of groups have house-ruled this, with many more intuitively tracking Crits per individual body part just because this is more realistic and people never noticed this isn't what the book says. How are we going to do this in our game?

It does, and we'll track it as such. I appreciate that house rule, but it just prolongs combat honestly, and in my experience it's already difficult enough for characters to die.

I feel like the stacking crit wounds is narrative sound making that final hit the last straw. Not some measly wound making your brain explode for some reason.

People people. there is a special item for flagellation witch does not cause damage.

People people. there is a special item for flagellation witch does not cause damage.

Cite your sources.

Probably means Scoriada ( DH:BoM, p116).

Hard (-10) T test when using Flagellant talent,

can also be used in melee, but will only do damage equal to SB

I appreciate that house rule, but it just prolongs combat honestly, and in my experience it's already difficult enough for characters to die.

Ah, yeah, that is probably true.

Now, I could offer you my alternate rule about using Toughness Bonus not as skin armour but as tiers between Criticals (this would roughly maintain current survivability, but characters are far more likely to incur Injuries) -- but I am probably correct in assuming you'd rather stick to the RAW wherever it seems proper.

People people. there is a special item for flagellation witch does not cause damage.

"If it doesn't hurt, it doesn't count!"

-- The Redeemer

You may not treat this Damage or allow it to be healed .

How about if somebody heals you, you immediatly castigate yourself again?

(or the wounds refuse to heal because of The Emperor?)

Medicae: "there I've patched up the bullet holes in your legs and the bleeding welts on your back."

Flagelant: "I appreciate the effort, but you did to much, my back is supposed to look like this" *grabs flail*

Whack! whack! Whack!

Flagelant: "Oh Imperator! Aaaah! Yes!"

Medicae: "Besides wasting my disinfectant and stitches... what dafuq is wrong with you?"

Flagelant: "Pain... brings...us...closer to... The Emperor! See, much better now!" *blood drips from back*

Medicae: "Oh sure! Why not! Here, stab yourself in the face with my scalpel!"

Flagelant: "Yes! Good Idea!" splut! "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"

Medicae: "I was joking! **** fanatics! Now I have to go and install a cybernetic eye. Nurse!"

I appreciate that house rule, but it just prolongs combat honestly, and in my experience it's already difficult enough for characters to die.

Ah, yeah, that is probably true.

Now, I could offer you my alternate rule about using Toughness Bonus not as skin armour but as tiers between Criticals (this would roughly maintain current survivability, but characters are far more likely to incur Injuries) -- but I am probably correct in assuming you'd rather stick to the RAW wherever it seems proper.

You'd be correct on that end as well. I got a post in on the game thread if you hadn't noticed yet.

You may not treat this Damage or allow it to be healed .

How about if somebody heals you, you immediatly castigate yourself again?

(or the wounds refuse to heal because of The Emperor?)

That's why it takes 20 minutes and is ritualized, masochism is a dangerous force and must be properly internalized.

"If it doesn't hurt, it doesn't count!"

-- The Redeemer

It does hurt.

From Blood of Matyrs.

"Scoriada wre whips made from strips of knotted cloth of soft leather. They are used to inflict corporal mortification, either on one's self or another. While the Scoriada does little to no damage by itself, extended use can cause severe bruising and raise welts. A Scoriada only does damage equal to the character's Strength Bonus when used as a weapon. When used by a character with the Flagellant talent to peform daily mortification, the character may make a Hard (-10) Toughness Test, and if successful they do not suffer a wound as a result of using the Flagellant talent."

"If it doesn't hurt, it doesn't count!"

-- The Redeemer

It does hurt.

It was a joke Rese

What about RAW seems to indicate it can only be done once per day? The flagelation must take place once per 24 hours to keep up effect, but if it is removed through healing it would seem that it can be reapplied and a new 24 hour clock started.

Hum . . . and RP-wise, I could imagine that if a flagellant is fully healed, they could easily just remove whatever bandage/ointment/stitches from their back or whatever during their next prayer session.

I still don't think it would be too much to ask of a GM to let me track damage from flagellation separately and ask medics not to heal it, but if they are unwilling to do that, the above would be acceptable.

Yeah, I know about the Scordata, but I honestly think it makes the Flagellant Talent a lot less interesting, which is why Inellia has a length of knotted rope instead

Sorry iF anything.

As I said, the wording is debatable for if you are able to repeat multiple times a day. I would go for being able to repeat it.

I think, one could allow to limit healing with medicae to some extent. But faith or psychic powers are hardly controllable towards that.

Having custom "Scoriadas" is a nice thing too. It can for example have modified mechanic: much harder to pass test because there are hooks attached.

Customising brings some color to the character.