I notice most lists posted to the forums use APTs vs ACMs. I get the utility of the Assault Proton Torpedoes, but being able to do 2 extra damage (to adjacent hull zones) seems attractive as well.

Do assault concussion missiles require more coordination to be effective? Is that why most favor the APTs over the ACMs?

Who still runs Assault Concussion Missiles out there and in what types of fleets?

There are literally about 2,000 posts on this topic.

APT's: Favored by MC30 Dodonna fleets.

ACM's: good with Spam black dice fleets (Glads and Raiders).

That's about the highest level succint summary there is. Enjoy :-)

EDIT: I'll add that i'm starting to come around on ACM's with rebels, too, but only when running squadron heavy. The rebel squadrons tend to be slower, and so having shields down in late game tends to help those slower squadrons catch late game shots against ships with their pants down. Can't tell you how many times that a single turn 6 squadron shot on a ship that was limping away with 1 Hull left would have won me a game.

But a non-dodonna MC30 fleet would still make good use of ACMs as they dish out more damage than APTs, correct??

But a non-dodonna MC30 fleet would still make good use of ACMs as they dish out more damage than APTs, correct??

More Damage is Relative.

More overall points of Damage, yes.

But if you're geared to deal damage to one shield and then the hull, the APTs are doing more objective damage, as the Splash Damage from ACMs is effectively wasted damage.

But a non-dodonna MC30 fleet would still make good use of ACMs as they dish out more damage than APTs, correct??

It just really all depends on what you're doing. Everything (almost, cough, cluster bombs) in this game has an effective usage.

Push an early crit onto a Neb b with APT, and with 3 engineering, he could easily have an engineering command tucked away next round, and heal it up.

On the other hand, push a forward ACM onto his front hull, and there's a good chance he's got shields down on 3 zones, setting him up for easy pickings in subsequent activations.

I was actually just talking to Ransburger about this yesterday. I have been firmly in the APT camp, but I think I may actually start switching in ACM's as well. Not getting rid of APT entirely, but maybe 1 and 1 in a fleet for instance. The reason to do this for me being Interdoctor. I have seen so many Wulff/Proj. Experts interdictors healing ISD's and such that it is hard to overwhelm the shields to do any real damage. I think ACM might fit this bill nicely. You sacrifice the single hull for two shields or hull, effectively nullify interdictor.

It will need some play to test, but that is my line of logic.

I was actually just talking to Ransburger about this yesterday. I have been firmly in the APT camp, but I think I may actually start switching in ACM's as well. Not getting rid of APT entirely, but maybe 1 and 1 in a fleet for instance. The reason to do this for me being Interdoctor. I have seen so many Wulff/Proj. Experts interdictors healing ISD's and such that it is hard to overwhelm the shields to do any real damage. I think ACM might fit this bill nicely. You sacrifice the single hull for two shields or hull, effectively nullify interdictor.

It will need some play to test, but that is my line of logic.

See, now this, I cannot get behind. I'm not saying it can't work/doesn't work, just that in my theorycrafting brain, you want to stack effects. So, either push a shieldstripping fleet (ACM's) or push an APT fleet with Dodonna. Trying to match unlike terms doesn't seem to jive with my brain patterns.

I was actually just talking to Ransburger about this yesterday. I have been firmly in the APT camp, but I think I may actually start switching in ACM's as well. Not getting rid of APT entirely, but maybe 1 and 1 in a fleet for instance. The reason to do this for me being Interdoctor. I have seen so many Wulff/Proj. Experts interdictors healing ISD's and such that it is hard to overwhelm the shields to do any real damage. I think ACM might fit this bill nicely. You sacrifice the single hull for two shields or hull, effectively nullify interdictor.

It will need some play to test, but that is my line of logic.

I like this logic. I have been looking for an excuse to use them and I just found it.

I was actually just talking to Ransburger about this yesterday. I have been firmly in the APT camp, but I think I may actually start switching in ACM's as well. Not getting rid of APT entirely, but maybe 1 and 1 in a fleet for instance. The reason to do this for me being Interdoctor. I have seen so many Wulff/Proj. Experts interdictors healing ISD's and such that it is hard to overwhelm the shields to do any real damage. I think ACM might fit this bill nicely. You sacrifice the single hull for two shields or hull, effectively nullify interdictor.

It will need some play to test, but that is my line of logic.

I think this is solid reasoning, unless you're running Dodonna. Shield Failure, Misaligned Projector, Structural Damage are flatly superior to ACM in terms of output, if there are still shields remaining.

Capacitator Failure, Life Support Failure, and Power Failure can be crippling if they're running an interdoctor (although a healer Gozanti will fix it, it does mess with their preferred activation order if they don't want a turn with suboptimal healing). Comm Noise can straight up deny a turn of repair, which is probably sufficient to tip the balance in your favor.

Targeter Disruption, Damaged Munitions, Depowered Armament, Blinded Gunners, Point Defense Failure, and Coolant Discharge are all situationally useful, but in the right situation they can be decisive.

So pretty respectable odds of getting important crits, especially if you've got multiple sources of APTs hitting the same target.

There is always the "But Dodonna" clause. So I concede that point.

See, now this, I cannot get behind. I'm not saying it can't work/doesn't work, just that in my theorycrafting brain, you want to stack effects. So, either push a shieldstripping fleet (ACM's) or push an APT fleet with Dodonna. Trying to match unlike terms doesn't seem to jive with my brain patterns.

This is because I am a waffling waffle-meister. I can't choose. May entirely be correct, I just have a hard time completely abandoning my much loved APT's. However, if this was my goal (and yes, Dodonna was not my admiral) you are probably right. Completely committing to ACM's would be better than splitting.

Not to say that I still won't insist on running APT's on something though...

I have always found ACMs better against things like mc80s and star destroyers to strip shields quickly, but the APT has had more reliability in killing ships

Don't mix them as they work at cross-purposes: APTs work by ignoring shields and ACMs work by depleting them.

In general I find ACMs are superior if you can afford them, particularly against ships with Redirect defense tokens (as they quickly make Redirecting regular damage more difficult or even impossible). Thus they are often superior against larger ships, which both have Redirect defense tokens and enough hull to make it through the APTs. Smaller ships can sometimes get one-shotted with APTs (with the help of a ram on occasion), as a lot of their defense tokens are designed to hopefully barely survive a serious attack and APTs makes them a lot more accident-prone with that one extra damage to the hull when ACMs might have had a negligible effect on that single attack (although nearly guarantee a kill on the next attack against that smaller target).

It does depend on the rest of your fleet, though. If you're running more attacks designed to ignore shields in other hull zones (with XI7s/Intel Officers being the best examples), then APTs can help you drill right into that one hull zone. If you're going for more raw damage/death by a thousand cuts, ACMs compliment you there. They're not trying to do anything fancier than rapidly get to the point in the game where ships without shields are gonna DIE.

Don't mix them as they work at cross-purposes: APTs work by ignoring shields and ACMs work by depleting them.

In general I find ACMs are superior if you can afford them, particularly against ships with Redirect defense tokens (as they quickly make Redirecting regular damage more difficult or even impossible). Thus they are often superior against larger ships, which both have Redirect defense tokens and enough hull to make it through the APTs. Smaller ships can sometimes get one-shotted with APTs (with the help of a ram on occasion), as a lot of their defense tokens are designed to hopefully barely survive a serious attack and APTs makes them a lot more accident-prone with that one extra damage to the hull when ACMs might have had a negligible effect on that single attack (although nearly guarantee a kill on the next attack against that smaller target).

It does depend on the rest of your fleet, though. If you're running more attacks designed to ignore shields in other hull zones (with XI7s/Intel Officers being the best examples), then APTs can help you drill right into that one hull zone. If you're going for more raw damage/death by a thousand cuts, ACMs compliment you there. They're not trying to do anything fancier than rapidly get to the point in the game where ships without shields are gonna DIE.

I've learned from reading everyone's comments so far. I also like to conceptualize the decision through stacking effects-i.e. Getting the double arc to trigger the crit twice. That's an extra 4 damage with ACMs versus 2 crits with APTs. that is what 1 ship will be doing with each upgrade.

The stacking effect of APTs is clearly the better choice with Dodonna. But an extra 2 damage with ACMs per ship? Most ships have 2-3 shields in non main arcs. Over the course of 2 attacks with Xi7s, your opponent could redirect 2 damage. But ACMs essentially reduces the need for Xi7s because those side shields will be gone anyways. That allows you to take a different TL upgrade (or none at all) and does the work of 2 upgrades for the price of 1.

Edit: Take it with H9s and hit the brace. Twice. That'll at least punch through some massive damage once on a ship with ECMs