I suppose this could go in fleet builds, but really I'm looking for more general input, so. I'm not planning investing too heavily in Wave 3/4 (unless this new job pans out, in which case...but no counting eggs before etc), so I'm working with relatively tight component limitations of post-wave 1 ships and am looking for input on making bombers work for the Rebels. I've got access to 2 R&V, 2 squad packs, 2 Neb packs, 2 AFMKII, 1 MC80 (Home One), 1 Transport, 5 corvette packs and 3 MC30s (went to three Sullust events, came in third at all of them, picked up the most expensive ship remaining. Heh). Core set too, of course.

Fiddling around with Fab's tool, it looks like I could fit seven (!) X-Wings, Jan, and Dash into a fleet. This...seems pretty respectable, but I'm unsure about two things. One, whether X-Wings really want more than one bomber command aura to do their anti-ship work and therefore whether they're worth taking en masse if I don't have multiple transports. Two, whether it's worth investing in seven squadrons that need squad commands (or Hera, but speaking of not counting eggs before etc) to be effective combatants.

Because at that point the transport with bomber command is auto-include, Yavaris is auto-include, but that leaves me with two activations of two squadrons each, which doesn't seem especially efficient (well, okay, the first activation will be three, because obv a take a squad token round one. Toryn Farr also seems super important, but either I stick her on the Bright Hope, in which case I'm worried about the Transport's survivability (I don't want to be within range three of squadrons that are doing shooting, unless they're shooting a Rhymer ball that's well away from the Imperial ships, right? Scatter is nice, but one accuracy and the BC goes down and my precious X-Wings are neutered) or I stick her...where? And so then I've got ~160 points for admiral and ship(s). A Boosted comms Command MC80, probably with Independence, is tempting, but then I'm down to three activations, though with a respectable 8 point bid.

So I guess I'd like advice for using Rebel squadrons, as general or specific as you'd care to get, particularly with minimal access to Wave 2+ stuff. Go back to the drawing board and stop trying to use mass X-Wings? Drop three X-Wings in favor of a 2400 and Keyan? Something else entirely?

A few thoughts:

1). Bright Hope is actually quite resilient against most squadrons, as they have to score at least 2 damage to do anything. Combine that with the scatter and evade tokens, and it takes a lot for squadrons to bring it down (though I'd stay away from Bwings and H-6's).

2). With Toryn Farr now on the table, would you consider some H-6's? They ought to be pretty effective with both Farr and BCC in the table. That will increase your bombing output considerably.

3). If you like Yavaris then great, but don't necessarily assume it's an auto-include. The double tap is nice but is offset by all the weaknesses of a Nebulon. Squadron heavy lists can be quite successful without Yavaris. Two carrier AFII's would work nicely and offer the advantage of being able to equip Boosted Comms, which I've found very useful in squadron lists. You can maneuver freely with your carriers while still commanding squadrons effectively.

4). All that said, I do think your original X-wing list will be quite effective. Maybe consider an A-wing or two for positioning advantage?

I suppose it really depends on what you want your squadron to do. For air (space) superiority then you can't go wrong with some squadrons of X-Wings supported by Han Solo and Jan Ors IMHO and I've had quite a lot of success with it in the past. I'm very fond of the A-Wing as well due to it's speed and counter ability but I'm concerned that they might not work that well as Interceptors anymore due to the JumpMaster 5000/HWK-290. I'm a big fan of the B-Wing but I've found them to be rather slow. The Yavaris/B-Wing double tap is amazing but players tend not to fall into that trap more than once. I've never had much success with the Y-Wing. They're too slow to get away from TIE Fighters and can't fight back very well in a dogfight.

TBH, a big part of the appeal of the 7X, Jan, Dash notion was that it came in at exactly 134 points, and for some reason I'm reluctant to go below the squad point cap. Which is silly, I know, but oh well.

A few thoughts:

1). Bright Hope is actually quite resilient against most squadrons, as they have to score at least 2 damage to do anything. Combine that with the scatter and evade tokens, and it takes a lot for squadrons to bring it down (though I'd stay away from Bwings and H-6's).

2). With Toryn Farr now on the table, would you consider some H-6's? They ought to be pretty effective with both Farr and BCC in the table. That will increase your bombing output considerably.

3). If you like Yavaris then great, but don't necessarily assume it's an auto-include. The double tap is nice but is offset by all the weaknesses of a Nebulon. Squadron heavy lists can be quite successful without Yavaris. Two carrier AFII's would work nicely and offer the advantage of being able to equip Boosted Comms, which I've found very useful in squadron lists. You can maneuver freely with your carriers while still commanding squadrons effectively.

1) Ah, sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that if Bright Hope is distance three from friendly squadrons that are performing bombing runs then it's probably in or close to medium range of the ships that are being bombed, which significantly increases the likelihood somebody rolls an accuracy and swats the transport off the board. Of course, since X-Wings don't actually have blue bombing dice I'm not sure why I thought that was a problem. It could be a problem if I switched in a couple H-6s, though.

2) Maybe? I'd end up with one fewer squadron, but having a couple blue/black bombers with access to two rerolls (sort of) might increase the ship killing power enough to be worth it. I...think I'll try it, yeah.

3) ...Yeah, that's probably a better idea. It's not that I have an attachment to the Yavaris, it's just that its ability seems so strong that I assumed pretty much every Rebel bombing list would want one. But, yeah, I'm not exactly a fan of Nebulons.

Thanks, guys.

TBH, a big part of the appeal of the 7X, Jan, Dash notion was that it came in at exactly 134 points, and for some reason I'm reluctant to go below the squad point cap. Which is silly, I know, but oh well.

5x X Wings

5x Y Wings

Jan

134

Multirole Fighter/Bomber group

I pretty much only run a Rebel Carrier fleet with Dodanna. I've recently fallen In love with the Escort/Intel combo you've found, but I mix in B-Wings as well.

Jan

Luke

3x X-Wings

4x B-Wings

With a fleet that contains Flight Controllers and Flight Coordination Team for 4 squadron commands per turn, Toryn Farr, Bomber Command, and Yvaris. Bombers eat everything...

4X

3B

2Y

Jan

133

5 deployments and a comical amount of HP. As one of my regular opponents put it, "Normally, I jump in with a bunch of interceptors and kill the two important squadrons. You shrug and just use the other 8."

TBH, a big part of the appeal of the 7X, Jan, Dash notion was that it came in at exactly 134 points, and for some reason I'm reluctant to go below the squad point cap. Which is silly, I know, but oh well.

5x X Wings

5x Y Wings

Jan

134

Multirole Fighter/Bomber group

4x X Wings

5x Y Wings

Jan

HWK

Is what I would run. The extra Intel really helps get the bombers on target.

1) Ah, sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that if Bright Hope is distance three from friendly squadrons that are performing bombing runs then it's probably in or close to medium range of the ships that are being bombed, which significantly increases the likelihood somebody rolls an accuracy and swats the transport off the board. Of course, since X-Wings don't actually have blue bombing dice I'm not sure why I thought that was a problem. It could be a problem if I switched in a couple H-6s, though.

The solution to your range problem is Boosted Comms! I love that card - it's saved my bacon countless times. Though I bring Toryn Farr along for an anti-squadron boost, not bombers. Which is why I don't care that TF isn't in effect for the bombing run...

TBH, a big part of the appeal of the 7X, Jan, Dash notion was that it came in at exactly 134 points, and for some reason I'm reluctant to go below the squad point cap. Which is silly, I know, but oh well.

5x X Wings

5x Y Wings

Jan

134

Multirole Fighter/Bomber group

4x X Wings

5x Y Wings

Jan

HWK

Is what I would run. The extra Intel really helps get the bombers on target.

Failed because it is less than 134 points.

I mean, sometimes, yes, its needed... But I tend to break into two groups for the most part... I designate a portion of X-Wings that just go hunting for enemy Squadrons, whereas one X and Jan ball in with the Y-Wings to Stay on Target... Stay on Target...........

Failed because it is less than 134 points.

Ah, but you failed because I don't have five Y-Wings. A veritable cornucopia of failure all around. This surfeit will surely be the cause of our demise. :(

So I got a match in with 4y, 3x, Luke, Jan, and Tycho (1 Bright Hope, 2x AFKMIIB. Hmm. Maybe I should repaint my AFMKII and start calling the man in black. Anyway) It...went well, but the way in which it went well leaves me with Some Concerns and Some Observations.

1) Bright Hope is, indeed, unbelievably resistant to squadrons. My opponent had a slicer's hope that...sure, he had to burn scatter to prevent Luke from hit/critting in the rear arc, but speed 3 made it extremely difficult to get more than a couple squadrons behind the little bastard, and my remaining shots just bounced off its sides and front.

2) Bright Hope is more like Forlorn Hope when goddamned Home One is around. In retrospect I think parking it behind a frigate and utilizing the combination of obstruction and title to minimize incoming damage would have worked. But even with only three reds incoming (Mon Karren, no Spinal or rerolls) it was pretty much guaranteed to die in two shots when one of those three is going to be an accuracy. And, of course, that'd mean either Forlorn Hope is out of useful range of the bombers or the Frigate is flirting with medium range, in which case things might become Very Bad Indeed.

3) Once Forlorn Hope dies bombers are a lot less reliable. I didn't count but would estimate between 5-10 damage was lost to blanks or accuracy. Which would have been enough to kill Home One, instead of seeing it burning at three hull as the final round ended.

4) Undefended big ships are extraordinarily vulnerable to bombers. I had not appreciated how quickly both variants of MC80 melt in the face of bombing runs. It does take two turns if I'm unable to bring my full complement to bear, and the puny four-dice shots from the Frigates (one Enhanced with gunnery team, one Slaved with flight controllers) actually do important work, both in terms of making the target more reluctant to spend defense tokens, burning defense tokens, and, yes, doing that extra three or so damage that pushes

4a) Mother of God, Luke is a war criminal who belongs in the Hague. Roll up behind enemy Bright Hope, roll hit/crit. Well, better use your scatter or there's a decent chance I get structural damage and blow you up outright. And then, yeah, dropping hit/crits straight through the shields of Mon Karren and Home One is the funniest thing in the history of funny things. I understand his effectiveness drops sharply if there are enemy squadrons (because who the hell won't prioritize the X-Wing with a black die that ignores shields) but think it's probably worth keeping him around for those matches in which there are minimal/no opposing squadrons (it helps that the arguably best local player doesn't use squadrons, ever).

5) I still have some questions about how effective I'll be against an Imperial squadron ball. With four X-Wings (okay, sure, and Tycho), the ability for Dodonna's Frigate to throw four squadrons per turn with flight controllers (Raymus) and Toryn to even out the damage I think I'll be able to annihilate a minimum of one and hopefully two key squadrons in the Imperial Murder Machine, but...is that enough? Equally importantly, is it enough to burn through them quickly enough for the surviving X-Wings to do meaningful anti-ship work? Oh god, I'm so scared, someone hold me. No, hold me tighter than that. I'm sort of considering replacing Flight Controllers with Ruthless Strategists and using a Y-Wing or two as an anti-Mauler/Howl/Manaroo's Boy Toy sacrifice. But that's probably super sub-optimal against opposing rebel fighters.

6) I also have concerns about the durability of my list. I wasn't dealing with XI7s on the opposing ships (and, frankly, think my opponent would have been better off dropping one TRC90 in favor of loading up his two MC80s a bit more heavily. Or even just dropping it down to a SW90B for the extra seven points somewhere), so the Frigates were fairly sturdy, but if I had been at least one would have died. Nevermind if there'd been an intel officer laughing at my brace. And that was taking most hits at long range, where evade could do its work and the MC80s only had three reds. If my opponent had bulled in with Karren at speed 3 and Home One at two I think there's a decent chance I might have lost the damage race entirely, nevermind just losing a ship or two.

6a) So now I understand what...Ardhael?... was doing with that 2x MC30 4xTransport + fighter horde thing. Yeah, good luck catching those things, you poor bastards.

7) The answer, of course, is maneuverability...but at speed 3 my movement is fairly constrained by the need to keep the fighters within range 5. Definitely something that demands more practice.

7a) oh right, and first player, so that nine point bid was super, super important.

On a different note, that many fighter stands makes doing everything more fiddly in a game that's already fiddly and prone to bumping. I'm remembering why my Wave one answer was eventually one VSD, Demolisher, Insidious and a speedbump TIE or two. But I actually do want to make bombers work, because X-Wings. So.

Failed because it is less than 134 points.

Ah, but you failed because I don't have five Y-Wings. A veritable cornucopia of failure all around. This surfeit will surely be the cause of our demise. :(

Look man, you stated 134 points. You didn't state any further restrictions. The failure is yours for failing to do that, and then doing that after the fact!

Au contraire mon frere, I noted my components in the OP

Which, sure, is a wall of text. But that's...actually a pretty good reason to miss it, shut up.

Au contraire mon frere, I noted my components in the OP

Which, sure, is a wall of text. But that's...actually a pretty good reason to miss it, shut up.

No, no, you're right.

My Bad.

It is very important to admit when you are wrong... So, mea culpa.

I've got some general advice for you.

1. Don't get too accustomed to Yavaris, FTC, + FC. This configuration is about to become as ubiquitous as Demolisher is/was in Wave 1 and Wave 2. That's not to say "don't use it", but I would expect people are going to learn really quick how to shut this down.

2. Rebels need diversity in their squadrons. We have a tool for every job, and you're going to need to learn all of them. Jan + 7 X Wings, sounds great, until you realize that something with speed 5 was needed to lock down the bombers outside Dengar's intel zone of a Rhymerball which is about to splash your Neb B's defense tokens don't help much against massed squadron fire.

3. Multiples of 2 for deployment. Try like hell to get your squadrons in multiples of 2 so you can maximize your deployment stalls.

4. You don't need to have enough combined squadron value to activate all of your squadrons in any given phase. At some point you'll get a couple of X Wings stuck in with Jan backing them. Great. They probably don't need a squadron command. Likewise for the Y's or B's that are riding the draft of a fattie Vic or MC80. Focus more on your deployment and where your squadron carrying ships are going. Learn to have overlapping command radii for them.

5. In tandem with point 2, if you're only running, let's say, 3 X Wings, 1 BCC GR75 should be enough. Y's are consistant enough. Toryn helps the B's and Scruggs and if they happen to overlap, great. A's and 2400's don't care.

I hate Luke. That is all.

Oh, that and thank you for not publicly shaming me for my egregious deployment error that turned Home One from a battle cruiser to a 100-some odd point Accuracy donator.

You are absolutely right though, I was hoping Mon Karren would make up for XI7's, but it did not, they are both needed. And the low speed on Mon Karren was in the hope that Home One would catch up, which it did not. I should have either bashed in to wreck the carriers and hoped against hope it would be enough (and gone down in a blaze of glory), or simply gone to 0 and sat at where he was deployed to delay for Home One. Taking the middle ground was the wrong choice and your bombers proved that point handily.